Three Point Hitch Problem: John Deere Review  -- John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum and Review Three Point Hitch Problem: John Deere Review -- John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum

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 07-16-2001, 03:05 Post: 30111
Larry K



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 Three Point Hitch Problem

Having a problem with my 3ph on a John Deere 1050. When moving round bales around 1100lbs, the 3ph will raise the bales fine and hold for about 5 sec. and then suddenly drop. If I get the tractors rpm up enough when starting to move it will usually hold and not drop, any suggestions why the sudden drop at lower rpm. No chatter or whining noise when lifting. One note, never had this problem until I installed a power steering kit to the tractor. Any suggestions, input, or thoughts would be appreciated.






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 07-16-2001, 06:45 Post: 30114
TomG

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 Three Point Hitch Problem

I guess the PS is run from a priority valve. I can hear when my PS is active and demanding oil from the priority valve. If I can't hear it, I have to assume the PS is not demanding oil and shouldn't affect other hydraulic operations. You might note if the 3ph drop happens only during a turn. I haven't thought about it, but I guess it's possible for the PS to demand more oil than the pump delivers at low RPM. If the 3ph was in lift mode, I guess a 3ph with a heavy load could back-feed the PS trough the priority valve. If PS demands more oil than the pump delivers at low RPM, the line pressure could decrease to less than the 3ph cylinder pressure. However, even if it's possible, the tractor would have to be in a turn and the 3ph in lift mode. I'd check the 3ph adjustments to make sure the it actually goes into and stays in a neutral mode. If it drops while in neutral, the PS is even less likely an explanation. If it still drops, you might turn off the flow control valve. Then, if it still drops, valves in the 3ph may be faulty (the unload and poppet valves are the ones I hear mentioned). These valves exhaust into the normal 3ph oil return path. Turning off the flow-control valve closes that path and would be a pretty good diagnostic. If it still drops, the 3ph safety relief valve may be faulty. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the safety relief provides a return path independent of the flow-control valve. If it drops with the 3ph in neutral and while driving, you might note if it happens when bumps are hit. Bumps create load shocks that increase the cylinder pressure. Bumps and heavy loads could pop a weak safety relief.






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 07-16-2001, 06:56 Post: 30115
John Mc



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 Three Point Hitch Problem

TomG: Wouldn't he actually have to be in the act of turning the wheel for the power steering to draw on the pump? I would think that the tractor being in a steady turn, the PS would not be drawing anything. I thought it only drew while actually moving the wheels, and stopped drawing (or drew almost nothing) once the front wheels were in their new position. But, perhaps my understanding of how PS works is all wet.






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 07-16-2001, 08:40 Post: 30125
TomG

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Good question John. I guess I didn't actually distinguish between a turn and active PS. I meant when the PS is active, which I can hear on my system. As I say, I don't know if the idea of back-feed is even possible. It is an interesting idea though. Regarding your question whether oil flows through the PS system in a constant turn: I'm not sure of the answer. There is a spooling valve that opens a line from the priority valve to the PS sector/cylinder when the steering wheel is turned. There also is a return line to the sump and a pressure relief valve in the sector/cylinder. The return line and pressure relief valve provide the possibility of oil flowing through the PS system to the sump when the PS spooling valve is open. As near as I can tell from a quick reading of my repair manual, the spooling valve is moved by end-thrust from the sector gear. End thrust is created only when the steering wheel is being turned and not when it is simply off-centre. In absence of end-thrust, the valve centers and the spooling valve closes. If that's correct, you're right, and I also ended up learning something concrete rather than theoretical.






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 07-16-2001, 09:24 Post: 30127
Larry K



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 Three Point Hitch Problem

Thanks for your replies. To clarify the situation, once I lift the bale the wheels are straight and no power steering is in use. I then have to quickly rev the engine and get it rolling before it drops. I noticed at times it may drop two to three inches and at other times it may drop all the way to the ground.






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 07-16-2001, 09:49 Post: 30130
Murf

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 Three Point Hitch Problem

I hate to be the spoiler in all this but here I go anyways. The 3pth, as with any hyd. cylinder, requires a valve in the circuit to direct fluid to & from it, to create the controlled motion we desire. If your 3pth is dropping without any input from you, this means that either the seals in the valve or cylinder are allowing the hydraulic fluid to escape instead of being trapped in the cylinder and holding up the load. Get it checked out.... Best of luck.






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 07-16-2001, 23:53 Post: 30150
Larry K



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 Three Point Hitch Problem

I raised the 3ph system with a lighter box blade while the engine was off, it bled down rather quickly. This leads me to believe it probably has nothing to do with the new power steering. As Tom and Murf said most likely a worn "o" ring on the piston, worn spool valve, or worn check valve. Does anyone have experience rebuilding the control valve or replacing "o" rings/piston rings on the hydraulic piston? Seems pretty simple to rebuild, are parts available? Any special tools required? Any forseen problems I need to know about before I break the system down? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated, thanks again for all replies.






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 07-17-2001, 06:06 Post: 30156
TomG

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I haven't done it, but rebuilding the 3ph does't have a reputation for being a real difficult job. A manual should be available and studied, and a manual should list any special tools needed. I was making some theory to think through if it's possible that PS could be involved. I still not sure but seems to hinge on how a priority valve works. I still haven't entirely come to grips with priority valves. However, it seems certain that flow to the high-pressure line would have to be restricted as the flow to the PS increases, or little pressure to the PS would be developed. A spring-loaded plunger in the priority valve seems to prorate the flow. What I havenít figured out is if a very high pressure in the hydraulic line could overcome a very low pressure in the priority valve. If it can, then it seems possible that a heavy load on the 3ph could cause a back-flow from the 3ph cylinder through the PS system when the 3ph is in lift and the PS is active. I don't think it's being a spoiler to tell that some of my theorizing is a bit obscure and off the mark. That's often the case. Though I do hope my ramblings were maybe a little helpful in suggesting some tests that could narrow down the problem a bit.






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 07-17-2001, 08:40 Post: 30161
Roger L.



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It never hurts to look at "zebra" theories....as Tom has done. And I know of no better way to understand a system than to think about the myriad ways that it can fail - again as Tom is doing with the power steering study.
But the first place to look is the most common reason. I agree with Murf. The 3pt is a closed system. Oil is forced into the 3pt cylinder and piston when your hand on the quadrant lever opens the 3pt valve, and the oil is trapped in there when the valve is closed. If there were no leaks in the 3pt system, the 3pt should then stay up indefinitely - regardless of engine RPM and even with the engine off. If it does not stay up with the engine off, then I would look at the O ring on the piston, the spool valve, and at the 3pt check valve. If the 3pt is responsive to engine RPM, then the first place to look would be that spool valve.
I've rebuilt the 3pt spool valve - I call it the quadrant valve sometimes - on other tractors but not on yours. It was easy and straightforward. Don't be surprised if you don't find any obvious problem. Just go ahead and replace all the o rings in there and my experience has been that this will fix the problem.






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 07-18-2001, 06:20 Post: 30201
TomG

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I haven't heard the metaphor 'zebra theory' before. Interesting possibilities here. Maybe it's like zebra stripes--no two theories about a subject are the same. That could describe my theorizing pretty well. At any rate, I am kind of obsessive about how things work. Normally I have to take them apart to figure it out. However, at the rate my tractor breaks, I'd be in a rest home before I have a clue about the tractor. Guess I have to theorize.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > John Deere Review Forum

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