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 12-13-2000, 16:24 Post: 22409
WH_Bob



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 Power Steering Failure

I have a John Deere 4100 hydro with 410 loader, R4 tires, and 39 hours. When I try to attach an implement to the 3ph by myself, I find that I constantly get on and off the tractor, turning the steering to adjust the lift arms. (Run at 2600rpms, 2WD). The real problem is the front wheels will not turn the last 15-20 degrees. It makes attaching an implement nearly-impossible. My dealer has replaced fluid and pumps. Took loader off and problem was diminished! Any suggestions? Stumped in N.C.






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 12-13-2000, 19:07 Post: 22411
Larry in MI.



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 Power Steering Failure

WH Bob I have the same setup except I have turf tires. My 4100 does the same thing. I think it is probably because the loader adds a lot of weight to the front wheels without any 3 pt. ballast. The power steering pump probably just doesn't have enough power to turn the front wheels with that much weight on them. It steers fine when you are moving but when you are sitting still without any ballast on the 3 pt. the steering does not work.






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 12-13-2000, 23:28 Post: 22418
Roger L.



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 Power Steering Failure

It sounds like the shop may want to buy a combination hydraulic pressure and flow test kit. Lots of shops have one. It sure is handy to be able to measure both pressure and flow volume. The gauge set is plugged in series with the fluid line to the power steering motor and readings are taken as the steering wheel is turned. Most mechanics can take it from there.
Lets see, the 4100 has a dual open center pump....one pump for the power steering and another for everthing else. It really doesn't matter that the steering pump has very low flow capacity, because if it has any flow at all it should be able to turn those wheels. This is a 2500 psi system. it has plenty of power to turn those wheels. Hmmm....OK...I've got it figured out. It is a cheap and easy test for you or for them to do:
Mount a 3000 PSI gauge via a T in the high pressure line going from the dual hydraulic pump to the power steering box. They can put this together for $25 bucks in less than an hour plus a trip to the hardware store. Now record what pressures that the system develops when you turn the steering wheel just a little and the front wheels are responding well. Now continue turning the steering wheel until you get to the place where the front wheels no longer respond. What is the pressure doing now? Only 3 things are possible:
If the pressure remains constant or rises only slightly but the tire stops moving, then something is stealing the flow. Or to put it another way, that pressure is creating a flow going somewhere that it shouldn't. So that instead of staying there and doing work inside the power steering box the flow is being wasted. Suspect either the relief valve circuit, or excessive clearance in the power steering box, or a hydraulic pump with excessive clearance. The pump is easy to test by dead-heading the output and seeing if the gauge rises.
If the pressure rises as much as several hundred psi and the tires still don't move, then the pump and the relief circuit are fine. It has sufficient pressure rise and should be turning the tires. The problem is either that the power steering box is binding at large turn angles (defective power steering box), or the steering linkage between the steering box and the front wheels is binding.....or that the power steering box itself (or steering geometry) is improperly designed. Try replacing the power steering box. If that doesn't do it then I'm afraid this may take a design engineer's attention.
The remaining option is that when the tires stop moving then the pressure actually drops. Hope for this one, because it is simple. It would be too much internal clearance in the power steering box. Replace the PS box.
There you go WH BOB! Hope these suggestions help. Chances are that the answer is above. Your mechanic may want contact me with questions....that's OK, but I will need a 4100 shop manual or hydraulic diagram to be more specific. The advice above is based on how these circuits work in general...and specifically the fact that the 4100 uses a dual open center pump rather than a single open center pump and diverter valve setup.






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 12-14-2000, 06:16 Post: 22422
TomG

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 Power Steering Failure

I'll add a couple observations rather than suggest a fix. I don't believe there's not much left to add to what Roger said. Please ignore some of these comments if youíre an experienced tractor user. I'm summarizing some of my early experience (last year it was), which might be useful to some readers. First: the steering column on my Ford 1710 was loose when I bought it used. The steering was hard and had to be muscled if there was much weight in the loader. I had the tractor into the dealer mostly for a 4wd problem and asked them to tighten the steering column (not easy, the dash has to be removed). The steering now works like it should, and the explanation probably is one of Roger's possibilities. The dealer also replaced a dented steering stabilizer (a tube shock absorber mounted horizontally in the steering linkage). A dented stabilizer can bind the steering, but it was unlikely the source of the hard steering. I suppose the steering column got that way from the former owner hanging on to it while getting on and off the tractor. That's what a handle on the fender is for. It's good habit to get into the habit of using the handle, and also getting off the same way you get on. A lot of sprained ankles happen from people hopping off front-first and landing in a hole or on a rock. As an incidental to my hard steering, I learned to lift the front wheels with the loader so I could turn the wheels easily when I needed to maneuver. That's not a fix, but it did get me out of some holes. Second: I don't think I've ever had to maneuver as described to change implements, and I did have most of my equipment in a fairly small brushed out area this summer. Changing implements is a subject that regularly comes up here. The archives have some good information. Myself, I don't know what I'd do without my heavy pry-bar and wood blocks. I find it easier to maneuver implements by levering them around with the pry-bar than to maneuver the tractor. I never knew what use I was going to make of the pry-bar when I bought it over 20 years ago to split rocks out of postholes--it still works for that too, but Iíd rather not.






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 12-14-2000, 07:37 Post: 22427
Randy Eckard



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 Power Steering Failure

Just one note of clarification, the 4100 hydro does not have a separate powersteering pump. It gets its flow from the Hydro tranny the same way the 55 series did. Whether this makes any difference or not I dont know.
Randy






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 12-14-2000, 09:02 Post: 22431
Roger L.



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Thank you Randy. Yes, it does make a difference. But are you sure? As I say above, I do not have complete information on this model; what I do have (from JD in 1999) shows both the hydro and the gear systems with the dual pump. Anyway, the difference would be that such a system as you describe would have all the same elements as the one I described above, with the tranny pump taking the place of the power steering pump. If it drives OK under heavy load (like pushing the loader through dirt) then it is unlikely to be the hydro pump. There is always one additional component when a system that does not have a separate power steering pump and that is a diverter valve to provide preferential flow to the steering. Diverter valves are usually set so that no fluid goes anywhere else until the power steering is satisfied. All the possibilities I set out before are still valid, with these additions: If the pressure goes low (unlikely), look at the regenerative triggering circuit for the diverter valve. If the pressure does not change much you have a very strong indication that the diverter valve's internal settings might be wrong. If I were betting, I would bet on that one. Setting that valve itself is much easier with a test kit that looks at both flow and pressure. If the pressure goes high then the diverter is probably OK.






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 12-14-2000, 12:09 Post: 22438
Art White



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 Power Steering Failure

There are 2 pumps used on the 4100 one for steering and one for implements. When playing with the compact tractors there are many that have trouble turning the front wheels with loaders on, more so with a load in the bucket. Tom with your response I wonder if the column didn't get loose from the hard steering?






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 12-14-2000, 14:40 Post: 22445
dave piper



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 Power Steering Failure

TomG. Do yourself a favor by taking that steering dampener off your 1710. I damaged mine and found the steering quite a bit lighter without it. You should put some longer stop bolts on the hubs to prevent the wheels from turning too far. Dave.






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 12-14-2000, 21:15 Post: 22455
Roger L.



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Art, that hasn't been my experience with compacts, though I haven't played as much with the 4000 series JDs as I have some of the other makes. But I don't recall any of the compact tractors having a feeble-feeling power steering. Then again, I wasn't looking for it. I didn't try full buckets on everything, but the ones that they let me dig in the dirt with didn't seem to care if the bucket was loaded or not.
Power steering has been completely worked out for half a century. Cheap, strong, and darn near bulletproof. I can't believe that I've missed something like this! Anyone else have this problem?






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 12-15-2000, 06:27 Post: 22464
TomG

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Dave: Thanks for the note. I know the early 1710's didn't have steering dampers, so they will work without them. I do drive the tractor infrequently on a major 2-lane highway about 10 miles to our camp. I suspect the damper may improve steering at road speeds, but I'm open to ideas. The steering is lighter after the repairs, so if I get better steering on the highway, I'd want to leave the damper on. I may put a rear view mirror on the tractor so I donít have to spend so much time looking over my shoulder watching for transports over-taking me. Yes, the stops allow the wheels to turn almost perpendicular to the tractor. It's pretty extreme, and I have even wondered if the stop bolts were missing. I'm managing with better operating technique, but I think longer bolts are in my future.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > John Deere Review Forum

Thread 22409 Filter by Poster:
Art White 2 | Bird Senter 1 | dave piper 2 | Larry in MI. 1 | Randy Eckard 1 | Roger L. 5 | TomG 6 | WH_Bob 3 |




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