Go BottomAre NewHolland Boomer larger frame tractors better than Deere
 | Terry Weivoda
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2000-06-02 16845
The responses to my post a few days ago on this issue have been interesting.I agree with some points made that all of manufacturers have had their share of problems especially with new models. I probably would have been on the CTB defending Deere with this same response. What started my "loss of affection" with Deere was the way they handled the front axle scuffing problem. It still amazes me that a team of engineers and product development employees at Augusta Works finished testing these tractors, smiled at one another, and said there is no problem with the steering and turning. If we assume that it was just mistake that would be one thing. But the way Deere acted as if there was not a problem is what started me to think this is a different company than I am used dealing with. My past experience with Deere and their warrant program has been excellent. I've even had parts replaced under warranty even after the warrant expired. I had JD 332 garden tractor that developed a leak in the power steering cylinder 6 months after the warranty expired. Apparently Deere had a few problems with the cylinders during my tractor's production run and agreed to replace it. That is thy type of corporate response that drives customers back tractor deal after tractor deal, year after. It is this type of treatment and confidence in John Deere that caused me to not seriously consider any other tractor but a Deere when I went looking for a new compact tractor 15 months ago. I new of some customers that were happy with their Kubotas, Boomers, Cub Cadets, but I always new in the end that Deere offered the best package, had the best customer response, so there was no need to seriously consider the other manufacturers. Ladies and gentlemen, this has now changed. I have a new axle on order for my 4600, when I will get it, who knows. But until Deere gets its corporate act together and starts building products with better quality control and better testing before production; other manufacturers, and I think that is NewHOlland right now, are going to continue to chip away at Deere. If a new customer takes a hard look at say a Deere 4600 and the new Boomer TC40D I don't see how you could by the Deere. This statement is coming from one who owns the Deere and has looked seriously at the other. Comparing feature for feature, as well as price, financing, etc., for me it is any easy one. The TC gets the nod. All is not lost for Deere. 4 or 5 changes in the comfort areas and the placement of controls would bring the Deere closer. Changes in the three point hitch like on the Boomer would make a difference. But the bottom line is that Deere is no longer the leader in the compact utility line. Perhaps a year from now if Deere responds like they should I'll be posting a message whining about why NewHolland hasn't kept up with Deere. I hope is this the case. But until that happens I looking for a NewHolland dealer that would like a shiny, nearly new 4600 to sit on his trade-in lot.
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| RickB.
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2000-06-02 16851
All I can add is at the NH dealership where I work, we have had 4 TC35, 40 & 45 tractors arrive in the last 60 days or so. All were either sold before, or shortly after they 'landed'. We have not had any service problems (yet) on any of the 4, or the LA loaders that are on 2 of them. ....
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| Larry in MI.
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2000-06-02 16855
Terry,
Like you I have been a Deere fan since my JD318 days. Substandard warranty service on my JD4100 and arrogance on the part of the local dealer have soured my allegence to JD. I'm not sure what color my next tractor will be, but it will not be green. Buying a JD 4000 series tractor costs $12000 to $30000. This is a major purchase in my book. The dealership should at least be polite about it!!! I paid a preimum price for the 4100 and I expect preimum preformance. At these prices the warranty should never be a consideration because the tractor4 should perform without any problems. I don't have a problem paying the LONG dollar for a machine but I expect it to perform accordingly. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2000-06-03 16856
Tractor and auto manufactures may have a lot in common.
Back in the '70's I knew a guy who worked for one of the auto companies: Just a kid who liked racing car and went off to school and became a mechanical engineer. He quit after a year. His frustration was that engineers are successful only if they get their designs approved. What he said was: 'almost the only thing that counts is cost. Things like durability, ease and cost of maintenance, and even driver convenience were not important.' He didn't want to spend his career figuring out how cheap he could do things and quit. Small wonder that basic engineering mistakes were made and countless recalls were issued.
Since then, auto companies have figured out that products like Vegas and Pintos aren't profitable no matter how they're advertised. But manufacturing still seems overly cost conscious, and the recalls persist. The response of the big companies still seems to be denials that problems exist, and putting money into financial and advertising departments rather than engineering. I think that executive staff are over-loaded with financial types, and people with line engineering experience are scarce in the boardroom.
Recently, tractor manufacturers have been getting big; almost as big as auto companies; almost as big as government. Big organizations all seem to work the same, whether they produce products or public services. I don't expect any relief the engineering problems associated with tractors, and don't imagine that any of the products will be much different--after all, every Pinto does have its Vega. I'll keep my 10 year old truck and 15 year old tractor going. Maybe some company will figure out that a product simply can't carry all the over-head of huge organizations and stockholders without compromising quality and design. Maybe some company will start putting money into engineering design before my tractor collapses.
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| Andy
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2000-06-03 16857
Tom G...HERE HERE!!!......I couldn't have said it better myself!
Big is NOT always better...especially in business...AND... ya can't be creative and build useful, reliable, quality products if the bean counters are running the show! ....
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| Jack D
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 37
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2000-06-03 16870
Well, fellas, I'm VERY HAPPY with my Deere (4400) and the way the warranty was handled -- not only by JD, but also, (and especially) the dealer. I can understand entirely your feelings about "the engineers having their heads up their butts, thinking they had a great product in the old front axle, etc. etc. wbut, JD did look at the problem, and offer a solution to their dealers/customers. (My dealer opted to give me a NEW TRACTOR rather than replacing the front axle.) And, as a result, I'm very happy. I think JD is going through a few changes (for the better)in their manufacturing process (our company has been through the same process, and it takes awhile to get it all implemented)and that they will come out the better for it. You're right, I've read about other problems with NH, K, etc. on this board, and although they did not have nearly the publicity Deere had on the scuffing thing, I've NOT seen where they have fixed a thing. In summary, I think it's the dealer, working with the mfr., and in my case, I'm very satisfied, and will stay, GREEN! ....
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| DavidUSMC
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2000-06-03 16872
Jack D, You ole devil dog always defending the colors. I was raised by two Marine Corps officers...thats right, my Mom was an officer..WWII era. I did my time as expected. That aside, enough is enough, Deere put a product out that was clearly defective. Those Japanese......what to do..QQQ. My Mom wont ride in my Toyota. Im staring to believe that maybe my wallet is more important...QQQ. Give me a break I dont believe that, but I do believe that I can wait until this shakes out. Im not sure I like what I see on the horizon. ....
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| Eddie Watkins
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2000-06-03 16874
I was drafted into the Marine Corp in 1968. After a tour in Vietnam I went to college on the GI Bill and became a bean counter. I later married an engineer and I most recently bought a green tractor. According to you guys my life has been the pits!! In 1995 I owned a Ford pickup and a Lincoln , today I have a CHevy pickup and a Buick. I had no problems with the Fords, I have had no problems with the GMs. I just liked their appearance better. The same could be said for the JD and NH tractors. Their polymer bodies are IMO more attractive than the Kubotas. I suspect Kubota will get a molded body soon. The extendable lift arms that Kubota and NH now have are an excellent innovation and JD will follow soon. In any business cost has to be a consideration (sound like an accountant don't I) but you better stay competitive. On this board we are constantly asking for pricing information so if the manufacturers don't keep their prices competitive they don't get our business. On the other hand, problems are discussed here as well so if a manufacturer has a problem and doesn't fix it the whole tractor world knows. I do know from reading these postings most tractor dealers are a lot more conscientious than car dealers about keeping their customers happy. I am not loyal to any color but my JD has been trouble free. The reason I ended up with a JD was an equipment malfunction on the NH (engineering?) and pricing on the Kubota (bean counting?). Any company that does not pay attention to both won't be around long. ....
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| Chris in IN
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2000-06-04 16875
I took delivery of my 4400 in early December. It set for over a month because it rained almost every day. Since early January I have put 66 hrs on it. It has been worked hard & been back to the Dealer twice. The first time in march to have the front axle replaced & this week to have a JD 48 backhoe installed. The only complaint & problem was with the front axle & my dealer handled problem great. If I had it to do over again I would still buy the JD from the same dealer. Not because I am hooked on Green, growing up everything was IH red even my farm toy collection is all IH, but because I liked more features on the JD than on the others. These days with any new model, tractor, car, truck or computer software there are going to be problems, although the front axle was a major screwup. There are also going to be good dealers & bad dealers. Compare any model that has been around for a few years to the firt runs. There are many improvments made as production goes on. Chris ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2000-06-04 16876
Well, it's certainly not my intent to trash any occupation. Of course, accounting and financial activities are essential functions of any business organization.
My notion is that competition doesn't work in markets that are dominated by a few large producers. There just aren't enough real choices for consumers, and the high costs of setting up a manufacturing company discourages new companies from being formed.
In basic theory, such markets produce monopoly profits. Monopoly profits are not inherently bad, but the whole question is what is done with them. My point is that monopoly profits tend not be reinvested in engineering design. The threat of consumers jumping to another product isn't too great if the few products available are virtually the same. A company just has to do enough to avoid being really bad, and the occasional 'bad publicity' can be managed by the corporate communications types (another corporate function which competes with engineering for resources). From a profit perspective, communications types are probably cheaper and more effective than engineers in a monopoly (oligopoly) market.
So, would I buy a really great tractor from a new company? I'd probably wonder where the nearest dealer was, if parts are available and what the resale value is. Starts sounding like a big organization. Probably can't avoid large organizations. However, the way monopoly markets work, I'd expect big name tractors to be virtually the same, and for them to fall short of the best possible quality. I guess colour and appearance are as good of criteria as any other for buying a tractor.
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| Toddh
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2000-06-04 16881
One thing I have seen is that a single bad experience with a product can cause a person to get unreasonably upset and emotional about the product and manufacturer, even after years of satisfaction. Emotional analysis rarely results in the best evaluation. It's better to set your immediate feelings aside and look at the situation with the perspection of the "whole picture".
As far as compact tractors, to me it is absolutely clear that every manufacturer has it's own advantages and disadvantages. It can't be a monopoly unless the market is dominated by a single company. Clearly this isn't the case with compact tractors. However, if one single manufacture began making the highest quality, most desirable, most reliable, most efficient, most cost-effective tractors on the market, then, in a free market, consumers would quickly learn this and begin buying solely from this manufacturer. To stay in business other manufacturers would have to respond. This is why people disagree on which tractor is best: no company controls the market. Economics 101.
I bought a JD 790 two months ago and love it. No, it doesn't have all of the convience features of the 4XXX series or the Boomer. But it had what I wanted most (4WD, power, warranty, reputation for reliability, simple design, functionality) at a more affordable price than the 4XXX tractors with similar power, and FAR less than New Holland. I don't think that's faulty engineering.
All of a company's parts must work together in harmony. The engineers are no more important than the marketing people and they aren't any more important than the financial people. Sure, engineering is important, but I doubt everyone on this board drives a Mercedes. When you decide to make a purchase, cost is clearly one of the top considerations. The marketing people find out what people want and tell the engineers what to build. The engineers design it so that it will work and that it can be built efficeintly. The financial people ensure that the equipment is sold at a profit. If ANY of these functions fails, the company goes out of business.
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| Jack D
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 37
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2000-06-04 16891
AMEN, guys, Amen -- we're all in agreement here - and again, "Semper Fi" ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2000-06-05 16901
I did bracket 'oligopoly' for anybody who would split a fine point. Same theory. Guess they teach pure competitive models in Econ 101. Market distortions due to departures from the competitive model must come later.
Anyway, I rather think about my tractor, which makes me happy, then Economics, which doesn't. From me, more about tractors and less about theory: Hope everybody else is happy with their tractor too. I'd just rather see more corporate energy go into engineering and less into organizational overhead. I'm not sure that all the effort that goes into things like producing or preventing the latest corporate takeover does much for product quality.
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