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funchy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 128 north eastern corner of Maryland
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2004-07-14          90894

I need a way to control weeds along alot of fencing. Holding a regular weedwhacker is very unpleasant for me, especially for hours. I know DR Field&Brush put out a string trimmer on wheels. Does anyone else make such a thing? I only wish I could find some cool implement to add to my tractor to get it to trim along fenceposts.

There is also Roundup, but am concerned about the safety (horses in pasture).

Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance!


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-14          90896

I haven't seen one in years but I remember using a 'weed steamer' as a kid on our farm.

It was a heavy duty water tank with a fuel oil burner under it, kind of like a portable furnace boiler. There was a steel pipe setup that ended in a movable nozzle. The whole thing was trailer mounted and towed by the tractor, an old AC W-4 in our case.

In operation that thing would give off a jet of steam that would fry weeds, grass and almost anything else within about 6' of the nozzle. A tank of water (100 gal. ?) would last a lot longer than I would on a hot summer day.

I suppose some such thing could easily be put together today, it certainly was safe enough, it made such an aweful racket the animals gave it a VERY wide berth coming down the fence row. I even remember that one particularly nasty bull we had was deathly afraid of it.

Best of luck. ....

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Archdean
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 279 Oklahoma
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2004-07-14          90900

Check out this page found on your site, just today!!
http://www.frugalmachinist.com/sidecut.html

Take care, enjoy your site!!
Dean ....


Link:   Side-Arm Cutter for 3-Point Hitch

 
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JParker
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 152 Richmond, VA
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2004-07-14          90909

The hot water approach sound like a great idea. I wonder if the heated pressure washers get hot enough? Northern didn't list the max temp, they are pricey and you would need a pressurized water supply to feed it.

If you go the trimmer route, I have a Sears walk behind. DON'T BUY THEIRS. Trimming up against something especially a fench is much easier with what "DR" calls Parallel Tracking. I think Troy Built has it too and maybe some others, but be sure. You need the cutter head off to one side to do a fenchline or building edge easily. The Sears unit I have can't do it. Other than that design issue, the walk behind cutters are extremely powerful. My wife trimmed around a toolbox I had sitting on the ground. When I picked it up, I only got the top 2/3. True story.

The other thing to watch is the material the "Mow Ball" is made of, either that or don't try cutting the grass in a gravel drive with it. She chewed the first ball to shreads. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-07-15          90959

My dealer carries a line of DR like trimmers on wheels, but I didn't catch the brand name. Next time I'm there I'll look. They're green, but not JD green. Most folks who have the DR trimmer seem to like them.

Another option might be a propane fired torch (one of those used while standing up). I've got one that makes quick work of weeds. Obviously you don't want to use one of these during fire season when the surrounding grass is really dry. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-15          90968

The big problem with a 'string-type' tool is that along the fence you constantly need to move in and out around fence post, rocks, trees, or whatever else is there.

Our old steam blaster just merrily nuked everything it rolled past, I remember it being particularly handy with gopher holes.

Best of luck. ....

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JimP
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 NY
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2004-07-15          90969

The apple farmers behind me have an interesting setup on one of their 3PH mowers -- not sure what to call this thing, but it kinda looks like a spring loaded disk mounted to an arm off the side of the mower. I assume there is some sort of trimmer wheel under this disk, and the disk acts as a safety shield.

While mowing along the trees, it extends out to mow in between the trees, and when it comes to the tree stump, the guard pushes the whole arm back to go around the tree and the spring returns it back after it is past the tree stump.

I have never gotten a good look at this setup up-close, but I assume the cutter is hooked into the mower gearbox or drivetrain somehow for its power - it is not an add-on engine like the setup in the earlier post.

Having seen this in operation from a distance, I would think it would work great on fence lines also. Maybe Art or some of the other dealers know what this setup is called. I will try to get some pics if I am lucky to catch them the next time they come through. ....

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JD 855
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2004-07-15          90979

JimP: The apple farmer may be using a "Weed Badger". A hydraulically operated cutting/tilling head on an articulating arm. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-07-15          90982

Interesting. Typically apple farmers use large offset brush choppers to get under trees. Thats what they gave me to use many years ago when I worked for them. They often times didn't reach to the trunks (limbs to far out) or even worse - I would ocassionally take a small tree out. The weed badger sounds like big improvement. ....

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JimP
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 NY
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2004-07-15          90984

Wow, the Weedbadger is quite a piece of equipment! The setup these farmers have is much simpler and smaller, but from the diagram on their home page, the concept is the same. Trimming wheel was maybe 12-16" and this looked like something that was bolted onto the side of a mower or brush cutter -- dependent on a rear mower and not a standalone unit like the WeedBadger. The mower/brush cutter mowed up close to the trees and this contraption cut the 12" in between the stumps. By taking a pass of each side of the trees, pretty much everything in the stump line is cut. I assume that it was probably powered by some pulley and a belt from the nearest spindle -- I need to get a up-close look of this setup, which is just an extra trimmer, not a tiller like the WeedBadger. ....


Link:   Weed Badger Home

 
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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-15          90988

I don't recall the manufacturer or the trade name but I recall seeing a device in one of our trade magazines that was for cutting along fences.

It was basically a hydraulically powered string trimmer that mounted in the front and off to one side of a commercial FMM and was activated by an electric switch on the steering yoke.

I have not used one but spoke to a few who have, they work well for along the edges of gardens, walks, etc., but are poor for fence lines if the grass gets tall between cutting.

Because the string cutter can't cut nearly as fast as the mower you have to waste a lot of time creeping along and when the string needs attention you have to stop cutting completely.

A classic case of "It looks good on paper.".

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-07-15          90993

Try spraying some glyphosphate (aka Roundup) mixed with surfactant (aka good detergent)directly beneith the fence. Should pretty much kill anything that goes in that area for about a year maybe 6 months in really wet humid climates. The dead vegetation residue should still hold the soil from washing. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-15          90994

I should have mentioned that you can buy these items at your local Coop, Tractor Supply Center, or Rural King. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-15          90999

Randy, a herbicide is a good idea, certtainly the fastest & easiest, but the original post ruled that option out because of a concern with horses grazing in that field.

That is why we were exploring 'mechanical' alternatives.

A few years back we did some experimenting with 'home-brewed' herbicides to try to control the vegetation alongside some of the cottage country roads we maintain. We couldn't really use 'chemicals' both because from a practical standpoint a lot of it would be in the lake after the next rain, but also because the cottagers would never tolerate it.

One of the most successful 'brews' was a mixture of vinegar, salt and dishwashing detergent, we used the strong vinegar used for pickling. It worked well, but required repeated applications and could not be applied if rain or even heavy night-time dew was forecast in the following few days.

It sure was cheap though.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-15          91014

Murph, I saw the comment about Round Up. I don't think Round Up is an issue here with respect to possible impacts on the horses from herbicides.

Round Up is used EXTENSIVELY in no till corn and soy bean production. "Round Up Ready" genetically modified corn and soy beans are prominent products in agricultural animal feeds and unless you by 100% natural grown animal feed (not much available that I am aware of and it would be very expensive) you are pretty much guaranteed to be feeding your animals feed that was grow using Round Up or glyphosphate to control weeds and pest plants.

My father has about 600 acres of corn and soy beans that are genetically modified Round Up Ready species and he uses glyphosphate extensively to control Johnson Grass and other noxious weeds. Additionally, glyphosphate breaks down and is inactive within 30 days and much less in most cases once washed into the soil. Glyphosphate is much less costly as it is sold in bulk than Round Up but is the same thing.

In my opinion, I don't feel it would be a hazard to the horses. They are not likely to eat the dead grass when they have juicey tender live stuff nearby. For the dollar spent and the back breaking labor involved with other methods; I think spraying glyphospate is the way to go. I would agree with you with on this issue if we were talking about spraying Crossbow or some other true herbicides which contain 2,4,D or similar dirivitives. I can certainly understand the concern for the animals but in this case I think glyphosphate presents no significant hazard. I will have to read up on the caution panels and get back to you on this as there may well be some toxic hazard to animals that I am not aware of. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2004-07-15          91018

If you do use Round Up (and I think it would be a good choice), be sure and read the label. You can buy Round Up concentrate at Wal Mart...Sam's...Lowe's etc etc but I've yet to see the stronger concentrate at a reasonable price.

Like Randy said, go to some place like your local farmer's co-op. It's been a couple of years since I bought any but the co-op had the 2 1/2 gallon 41% concentrate for $125. Lowe's, Sam's and places like that sell the 18% to 21% for twice the price.

The first year you'll have to spray the fence row more than once. This is due to seed that will come up. Once you get it under control, once a year 'should' do it. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-07-15          91035

too words: growth regulators ....

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drcjv.
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2004-07-16          91053

I have about 1500ft of fence for horses, goats and donkeys some of it is board fence some is wire fence. It is very hard to weedwack the wire fence. I use a mixture of roundup and sythe, on a hot day you can watch the weeds dye. They don't come back. I just don't let the animals in the area treated for a couple of days. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-16          91073

Randy, if the horses were pulled out of that field for a week I would agree with you. I also agree that it is pretty unlikely that the horses will eat the wilted & dying plants.

However, my experience has always been that horses are intelligent, curious animals. If you are nearby they will usually come to see what you are doing, if they see you near a fence line and come to you they will often spot the lush long grass along the fence and start eating it.

We also use a LOT of Roundup, Wrangler, Sythe, etc., and in the application guide they give me when I renewed my license this spring it makes the following quote "It has a low acute toxicity to mammals (LD 5O: oral = 4,300/dermal = 5,300) but is an eye, nose, throat, and skin irritant." This is about the best legalese statement I have seen in a while, in english it basically says "It isn't fatally poisonous to mammals very often." Our instructor however did warn that horses, like humans, do occasionally have allergic reactions to substances like this.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-16          91077

Murph, sounds like we agree. My assumption would indeed be that the horses are removed from the area or kept away from the sprayed areas for a reasonable period.

I think this issue is a matter of owner choice as to which method they want to pursue. That is a hole bunch of weed whacking or cutting to keep up with or they can exercise some reasonable and simple precautions and save their backs and spray.

Grassgod, to my knowledge, glyphosphate has no growth regualtors in it but I have yet to read up on the MSDS and product data info. It does not use 2,4,D or similar compounds to kill plant life. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-16          91088

Randy, strictly for informational purposes, I don't want to come off as a 'tree-hugger', here is an explanation of Round-up as presented in the 'study guide' they gave us for the 1 day course.

"Produced by Monsanto and first registered in the United States in 1974, it is a translocated herbicide, absorbed by leaves, stems, or roots and translocated (carried along with other nutrients) throughout the plant. It disrupts the chemical processes critical to plant growth and nutrition, and its effects may not be seen for a week or more after treatment. Translocated herbicides can be selective, as with 2, 4-D, or non-selective, as with Roundup. Because of this, application rates are critical; an overdose may kill the parts of the plant first contacted by the herbicide, and prevent further absorption and translocation. It kills plants by inhibiting synthesis of essential amino acids, thereby resulting in a reduction of protein synthesis and an inhibition of growth."

It certainly qualifies as a growth inhibitor, it is merely a non-selective one.

Best of luck.
....

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Chief
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2004-07-16          91092

Murf, as you have attended that applicator's course and have the information in front of you; I will certainly defer to your knowledge on this. As I mentioned earlier; it boils down to an individual decision to weigh the risks and benefits. If the owner is not warm and fuzzy with the use of herbicides, then break out the string trimmers and start swinging away. I put about 7 hours of use on mine this week alone and my back is barking. ;o) I am not a big advocate of chemical use and try not to use them whenever possible but I can personally atest as can my back to the rigors of cleaning out fence rows. ;o) Have a great weekend Murf! ....

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treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-07-16          91096

Swisher makes a product just for trimming fencelines and it's called the Postmaster. I have tried to find someone that has used one of these to ask them if it works as claimed. I would buy one if I knew it would work. I'm including the link below. ....


Link:   swisher postmaster

 
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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-07-16          91104

I use Ortho total vegetation killer on my fence row as Roundup is too expensive. I just put the fence up this spring and have sprayed the fence row twice this year. It kills everything dead and once it has been used for a year or so the applications can be cut back (my dad has been applying it once a year to his fence row for the past 5 years). Although I don't have any horses or large animals, my dog is constantly at the fence row and it doesn't seem to bother him. Of course he doesn't eat the grass! I can do about 1500 feet of fence row with a gallon of concentrate (1 quart to a gallon of water) which runs about $20 at Lowes. ....

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beagle
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2004-07-16          91106

I have three beagles, and they do eat grass. We have 1100 feet of fence row to maintain. Do you know of a product that is safe for animals that would accomplish the same thing as the Ortho product? The weedwacker beats the snott out of me and the fence. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-16          91109

Treeman, I have never used a Swisher but from LOTS of experience cutting along roadsides and such I can tell you, if it requires a fairly constant monitoring by the operator, you do NOT want it behind you. The constant turning around is a real pain in the neck....and back and hips and shoulders.....OK, I'm sure you got the point.

Beagle, as long as you don't mind repeated applications on a semi-regular basis, as I stated earlier in this thread, we had pretty good success with a salt/vinegar/dishwashing detergent/water mix. The salt and vinegar are toxic to the plants, the soap helps keep it in place long enough for the plant to absorb it.

Best of luck. ....

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treeman
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2004-07-16          91111

Murf, That's why I was interested in the Postmaster. The head is spring loaded so it moves when it contacts a post. A person should be able to set the spring tension that works good and just drive keeping the same distance from the fence. A person should only have to look back once in a while. Thanks for the reply! ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-07-16          91112

Fence rows require a particularly vigorus regimen of TVC (total vegetation control). Generally mechanical means are not effective measures for TVC, they cost too much in terms of labor and machinery and have mixed to poor results. A really effective TVC system requires chemical control. Chemical TVC has three components 1) Broad spectrum residual (BSR) control, 2)Preemergent and 3)Postemergent control. Glyphosate (Round-up) falls in the #3 category and while effective against most small non-woody plants it has to be regularly re-applied for effective control (± every 6 weeks in summer months). BSR herbicides are MUCH more effective. Examples of these include imazapyr (Sahara) and sulfometuron methyl (Oust). Preemergent herbicides include oryzalin (Surflan) and diuron (Karmex), while post emergent control includes glyphosate, and glufosinate amongst others.

Sulfometuron in combination with diuron is often used to control vegitation along railroad tracks and roadways, where more agressive control is needed imazapyr or glyphosate are added to the mix.

Spraying foliage should not be problematic for most animals if they are prevented from acessing areas sprayed for a few days. There are generally no problems with exposing animals to glyphosate even immediately after application. Of course once the vegetation has been removed there generally is no problem with livestock trying to access those areas as there is no foliage to attract them. When in doubt read lable directions!

Beware of spraying heavy doses of BSR within the drip line of established trees as it is possible to kill them.

A good resource for herbicides and their application is:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/index.html the OSU extension website, generally your local coop can help with recomending TVC herbicides and informing you of what most others are using. Not all the above herbicides will be available through retail outlets so you may have to go throught a coop or some such. ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-07-16          91116

Kubotaguy
Perhaps I am not reading your post correctly, however IMHO buying herbicides from Lowes or retail home improvement stores is usually the most expensive option for weed control and herbicides.

Your post states you get about 5 gallons of mixed material for $20 (one quart concentrate per gallon of water is 4 quarts concentrate per 4 gallons water for a total of 5 gallons). That's $4.00 for a gallon of sprayable liquid.

Roundup-Max (49% Glyphosate) costs ±$130.00 for 2.5 gallons of concentrate. From that use 180mL in 4 gallons of water, or 45mL roundup per gallon of water. In a 2.5 gallon jug of concentrate there are ± 211 alliquots of 45mL (2.5 gal * 3.8 L/gal * 1000 mL/L /45mL / alliquot).That works out to $0.61 per gallon of sprayable liquid ($130 / 211 applications).

The ortho product is thus nearly 7 times as expensive as the Roundup. Generic glyphosates are about half the cost of roundup. I suggest you see your local Ag coop for herbicides they could save you considerable expense. ....

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beagle
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2004-07-16          91121

Thanks Murf. The beagles eat grass to settle their tummies. I don't believe they will be feasting on Salt/Vinegar/Dishwashing Soap to settle their stomachs. I don't mind repeated applications, it's better that repeated beatings from the weed-wacker. If I missed it earlier, I appologize, is there a recommended ratio of ingredients? ....

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Murf
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2004-07-16          91123

I can relate, I breed and train Jack Russell terriers (terrors?). The blood stock used to create them was a good part beagle, the JRT's also like to 'graze' frequently.

I completely agree with your sentiments on the string trimmers, I think they do equal damage to my back & the weeds.

The ratio is completely variable depending on what you're trying to kill. Grass for instance doesn't take much, weeds and raspberries (particularly nasty on car paint jobs) take a pretty good dose of anything to kill them off. We found that (for a 45 Imperial, 55 US gallon sprayer) a gallon of strong (pickling type) vinegar, a 10 pound bag of de-icing salt and about a bottle of dishwashing detergent.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-20          91410

Murf - will the salt or vinegar harm the diaphram in my solo backpack sprayer? Last year I used bleach in it & it ate right threw the diaphram. What a time consumer it was changing it. I came close to throwing it in on the " for parts only" rack. Now a days I am carefull about what I put in there. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-20          91423

No you should be just fine as long as it is a 'chemical approved' diaphram and not just a 'solution approved' (read cheapie) model. The bleach is a solvent and will melt or soften the diaphram, the pressure then blows a hole in it. Niether vinegar nor salt are solvents, except to vehicles that is.

Just be sure that the salt is thoroughly disolved though, we made up a bucket of very strong brine (salt water) using boiling water from a kettle to get all the salt in liquid form first, then blended it with the rest of the water and kept the agitation spray running to ensure it stayed in suspension.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-07-20          91443

If you are going the salt route I would add salt to cool water and see how much you can get to stay dissolved (may take a little longer). If a saturated salt solution cools (from boiling) some salt will come out of solution and by then you have moved it right into the workings of your sprayer. ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-07-20          91446

Sorry Murf, didn't see the "add the rest of the water bit" so I guess unless its a VERY strong brine solution in VERY hot water and a VERY small "rest of the water" you will be OK. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-07-20          91454

in other words: you have to use alot of salt & must mix with extremely hot water. Sounds like I should stick with prosecutor / sythe or Round up Pro. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-20          91455

I guess the terms 'a lot' and 'extremely' are very subjective.

What we did was use a 10 pound bag of de-icing salt (that we already had) with a couple of gallons of boiling water. I assume that if you used regular table salt (myuch finer crystals) it would disolve a whole lot easier though.

Bear in mind though that we mixed at a rate of 1 pound of salt for 5.5 US gallons of water, so for a back-pack sprayer it would be much problem to mix a smaller amount.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-07-20          91464

my backpack is a 5 us gal so I will try it with 1 pound of deicing salt which I already have aswell. Thanks for the tip. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-07-20          91474

With such a strong solution of salt; you may as well just sprinkle the de-ice salt directly under the fence row and that should achieve the same result but with no boiling or mixing of water. This worked well for the Romans when they took retribution upon an enemy. Or just mix up a batch of CaCl tire loading solution; this will kill vegetation for years to come when spilled by that holed or flattened filled tire. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-20          91477

Randy, you are absolutely correct.

The problem with sprinkling salt directly is it will stay there for years and prevent ANYTHING from growing until it has completely disolved and leached off.

By spraying a strong solution the plants absorb it and die, leaving relatively little in the soil itself. Certainly not enough to sterilze the area for more than one season.

We spray countless thousands of gallons of CaCl, in weaker solutions than you would run in a tire for ballast mind you, as an ice control agent every winter. So far none of the sites, including a few golf course parking areas and walkways, are showing any signs of die-back from it. In fact one site has no burnt areas at all, they used to have a 1' - 2' burnt strip all around the parking area when we applied rock salt.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-07-20          91478

You need to rent my dog (85 lb. female yellow lab). She goes 24 hours between outings and can burn a spot 12 inches in diameter each time that won't regrow for about a year. All you have to do is dribble a drop or so of another dog's urine at each fencepost. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-07-20          91495

HA HA HA....now thats funny! ....

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57210788
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 16 Emo,Ontario, Canada
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2004-08-07          92924

having your horses drink Round up (or it's two clones) would not be a great source of dietary fiber, but it would also not really harm them. Unless of course your horses use photosynthesis to survive. What kills the plant is the agent that block the plant from using it's photosynthesis and essentially chokes the plant. I can't speak for horses, but I know for humans that a cup of coffee is more harmful than round-up. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-08-08          92999

The patent on round up just came off a year ago. Buy a generic Farm and fleet has one for $55 for 2.5 gal. Only 41% glyso but it works just as good as the ru. Also it has the suffacant in it already ....

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drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2004-08-09          93005

For the most part round up or clone will not harm a horse but my vet told me about 2 local cases where a horse died from an allergic reaction to the stuff. You still must use caution when exposing the animal the first time. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-08-11          93274

Thats good to know as I have 2 horses. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-08-12          93384

How about mother-in-laws??????? ....

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acerguy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 69 Wisconsin
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2004-08-25          94429

The steamer idea (from page 1) intrigues me but, as noted, the "hot pressure washers" available from someone like Northern seem both very pricey and perhaps not exactly what you would want (don't need a 400psi spray to get boiling water on some grass!). I know that hot water works from some "experiments" we've done around our place on the cursed garlic mustard. Anyone have any insight on something low cost that might be appropriate? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-08-25          94437

Often the 'old ways' are very efficient and dependable, as this one was.

The trick was that it didn't spray boiling water, it delivered a jet of STEAM.

A small tank of water lasted far longer than I was willing to at the time. It also took very little fuel oil to run it. It used a little air pump gadget like a Coleman stove or lantern runs to make a head of air in the fuel tank and atomize it for burning. I can recall having to periodically pump it back up to get the flame back to full-strength.

It was very safe & effective, but it wasn't much fun waving a steam hose around in hot humid summer weather.

Best of luck. ....

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Ramona
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2005-10-20          118205

Thank you for your tips on the salt-vinegar-soap for killing vegetation. I plan to use it near our backyard ponds, where we have red-eared sliders and tadpoles (not in the same ponds, of course, since the sliders will eat the tadpoles!). Back when I was living in Virginia and living on a wetlands, I was advised by the local Forestry and Wetlands Boards that Roundup was safe to use around the wetlands. However, since then I've seen reports that the inert ingredients in Roundup can affect the sexual hormones of animals that feed on the vegetation that has been sprayed, and that overspraying Roundup in water is very harmful to amphibians. See this link: http://www.pitt.edu/~biohome/Dept/Frame/Faculty/relyeaabstract.htm ....

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