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tuolumne
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-03-26          140753

Hello,
I will be purchasing a utility tractor in the medium size range such as a JD 3520. What sort of finish mower is more versitle? I have used garden tractors with belly mowers, and well understand the difficulty of getting around trees and such. Most of my experiance is with a 48" JD walk behind and an xMark 54" walk behind. I have never used a rear finish mower, only various brush cutters over the years. My property could have as much as 2 acres of mowing, with some trees, buildings etc. Will I be more happy with a belly mount or a rear mower for this task? Is one easier to mount than another?


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kthompson
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2007-03-26          140755

I have never used a belly mower on a tractor but think you will find installing the belly mower not as easy and it may be in the way for some other jobs so the need to remove. At same time think you will find the grass being cut before the rear tires and their weight are on it and better view on where the mower is to be advantages.

A rear mower allows you to back under limbs or over a ditch a belly mower probably would not. The selection of belly mowers will be much less than rear mount. Of course your tractor has to be made for a belly mower.

If you go with a rear mount be sure you don't buy bigger than the tractor will handle horse power wise but you will want one that does extend as least as wide as your wheels. If I were purchasing a rear mount mower I would want one with rear discharge so you can trim with either side.

There are many here who use belly mowers and am sure they will point out more difference or correct any of my mis guided thoughts. Have fun and cut a lot of grass. kt ....

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Murf
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2007-03-26          140756

IMHO, the question of MMM or 3pth mower is better answered by what ELSE you plan on doing with the tractor.

As Kenneth mentioned, putting a MMM on & off can be a real PITA, so if your 'to do list' includes a lot of FEL or other heavy work, a MMM could be a real pain.

I'm personally more of the opinion that anything bigger than a sub-compact, or at least very small compact, is a real compromise for finished turf maintenance. If it's not anything more than just plain ole 'keep it cut' work, no problem, but if appearance or speed is an issue, then you should be looking at a dedicated pro-style grass getter.

The other thing is cost, I think you will find a BIG price difference between a MMM and a 3pth machine. In fact a buddy of mine bought a real nice used front deck commercial unit with a 3cyl. diesel for less than the dealer wanted for a MMM for his machine. Now he flies through the grass, and doesn't rack up hours doing 'non tractor' work.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2007-03-26          140758

Adding to Murf, I have a 27 hp Kubota with hydrostat trans and a 72 inch rear finishing mower. It takes 2 hours to cut our yard. I have a 52 inch z turn with a 20 or so hp engine and I cut it in 1 1/2 hours with it. My z turn and the rear finishing mower are the same brands with many of the same parts on the deck and doing the cutting. 25 per cent savings in time with a 20 inch narrower deck. Our yard is 2 acres with about 40 or so trees or beds to cut around. A lot of runs 200 plus feet long. kt ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2007-03-26          140763

I know JD makes mid-mount mowers that will fit the 3520. But I personally wouldn't consider a mid-mount on a tractor that big. 37 horsepower just seems wasted to me on a mid-mount. Not to mention that you'll be running well over 3000 pounds of tractor/operator/POL over the top of the mower deck every time you want to mount/dismount the thing.

//greg// ....

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loiseau
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2007-03-26          140767

Hi, personally i think the rear mower is more versatil. ....

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bvance
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2007-03-26          140771

I have a BX2230 with a MMM with a FEL and have had no problems using the FEL with the MMM attached. I have never taken the mower off unless to service it. You have to be a bit careful when using the FEL in some rougher terrain, but if one has a sub-cut how many times will you be in really rough situations or terrain?

Most average folks that buy a sub-cut aren't on construction sites but more normal 2-5 acre tracts where a MMM is very useful and versatile. It seems to me attaching and removing a rear mount mower would be a whole lot more hassle as you have to put it on or take it off almost every time you mow with it as opposed to just leaving the MMM on and going about your chores.

Just my experiences....but nothing is ever perfect...life is always full of trade-offs.

Brian ....

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greg_g
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2007-03-26          140772

I have every expectation to see belly mowers under SCUTs. After all - and no offense Brian, but - many of them really do look like oversized riding mowers. Except that the JohnDeere 3520 is by no stretch of the imagination a SCUT. It's a ton and a half machine powered by 37 turbocharged horsepower. In my mind, a belly mower just ain't right.

//greg// ....

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bvance
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2007-03-27          140773

Greg....my bad. I saw he was mowing 2 acres and talking about a walk-behind and didn't read close enough that he was talking about a much bigger machine than my pretend tractor :)

Brian ....

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tuolumne
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-03-27          140774

Thanks everyone for the input. I talked to a dealer yesterday, and it looks that the price for a mid PTO and mower would exceed that of a decent commercial job. I'm still wondering whether to get the mid PTO for other applications down the road. ....

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greg_g
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2007-03-27          140775

I really truly want you to understand that I have no intention to offend SCUT owners with that observation. But also really and truly, SCUT is an acronym dreamed up by marketing people. A CUT is in reality what the acronym represents; a Compact Utility Tractor, the JD3520 is a good example. Almost without exception, CUTs will readily accept implements and accessories manufactured to Cat 1 specifications. Up from there is the standard Utility Tractor, often engineered with Cat 2 capability.

But in the other direction, today's SCUTs are updated versions of yesterday's garden tractors - which were lawn tractors with beefier frames - usually with hookups and connections for proprietary implements that wouldn't fit anything else. To their credit, more SCUTs are now Cat 0 compliant. Some on the other hand, confused things even more with this "limited Cat 1" specification.

Long winded - I'm sorry. But to me - many of them still look like shiny renditions of my old JD430 diesel.

//greg// ....

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Iowafun
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2007-03-27          140782

Some good questions are being asked and good points being made. As the owner of a JD 4310 and a 72" MMM, here is my take.

Someone asked about what else you plan on doing with the tractor. That is a big key. At my last place, I mowed about 3 acres. So in summer, mowing was the dominant use. In winter, clearing snow was the dominant use. In between the two seasons is when other work was done like hauling dirt, manure, etc. So in summer, I typically didn't use the loader much and the usage was usually such that I had no need to removed the MMM.

so if mowing is the dominant use, I like MMM. If I had to take the mower off regularly, I'd go with a rear mower. I find my MMM nice because I can see instantly where I am in relation to an object. I've bashed things using rear mounted equipment. So that is something to consider. If you have a lot of objects in your yard, you may want a zero-turn machine. But if you don't, then a MMM or rear mount would work fine.

I had some big open areas where the advantage of a ZTR really didn't come into play. Other areas with trees and obstacles, a ZTR would have kicked my butt. But most ZTR's I've seen would have shook my teeth loose on the rougher ground compared to the 4310.
....

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bvance
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2007-03-27          140793

Greg,

If you response was intended in part for me, absolutely no offence taken by me with your comments. I understand what a SCUT is and its uses and intended purpose. At the same time, a SCUT is an wonderful machine for its size. If used properly and carefully they can do an amazing amount of work. Some look at them as toys and others like me, know what they can do if you know how to use them and understand they also have their limitations. However, I do think with their 4 wheel drive, 3 pt, and FEL that they are bit more than a "shiny lawn tractor"....just couldn't resist that rejoinder :)

Apologies to all for my off-topic comments here.

Brian ....

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cutter
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2007-03-27          140797

I have had several tractors and when trimming is as extensive as it is on my property I will have only the belly mower. That said, the belly mower has not been on the tractor since I purchase the zero turn. I plain got sick of struggling to take it on and off.

Now the downside to the 5' zero. Sucks gasoline, rides rough and does not mow the lawn any faster than my 6' belly mower because my back can't take the pounding at the 15 MPH it is rated to do.

In addition to that, I need to run the sticks with one hand in order to enjoy my favorite beverage. That is a pain.
....

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SG8NUC
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2007-03-27          140800

cutter,

I was thinking about a zero turn. What kind do you have. Would you buy another one? You seem somewhat displeased. ....

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cutter
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2007-03-28          140805

I'm not so sure the zero-turn is at fault, my back is the culprit having two dislocated disks, thanks to my years on the utility crews. Nothing rides as nice as a big tractor for mowing unless you get into a huge commercial rig.

I have a Gravely 260Z with the 25HP Kow engine, a fairly common setup. Mine has the suspension seat, probably the second best for ride below the Ferris. When I purchased mine, I did not realize that Ferris made a machine with suspension, like a race car, so the deck rides flat but the body can flex.

I did try one of those single stick Country Cutter machines and they are a pain to use, at least the one I tried was.

For features, I liked the Dixie Chopper best and that SS body is fantastic. They have a patented hydraulic drive that does not require the sticks to be buffered making the action very smooth and easy. I was ready to purchase one of those but the dealer soured me. They make a real thick seat which will smooth the bumps but he insisted it was a $600 option..unless I purchased a leftover machine he had there. That would not have been an issue but I am very fussy with my equipment and this mower was left outside for a year and used as a "demo".

I tried the Wright Stander. I love that machine, particularly for a bad back, but after waiting a month for one to show up at the only dealer in the area I gave up and looked at the rubber-stamp zero turns. The lawn was getting too long and as I said, I did not want to mount the belly mower again.

The only other machine that impressed me as innovative is the Scag (Tiger I believe). The machine has that same thick seat available, same as the Chopper, but no suspension. I like the grease fittings all over on the Scag. Most all the rest of them have "sealed" bearings, something I do not care for.

The JD, Yazoo and others did not offer any comfort features for smoothing the bumps. Possibly they do now, almost three years later, not sure.

Dealer support and honesty was a big issue for me. I knew the Gravely people from past utility company business. In addition to that, they had several machines with a hydraulic deck lift and this silly computer called I-Q that nobody wanted. So, for a couple of hundred bucks over a stripped machine, they sold me one of the "loaded" models.


Hope that helps and good luck. ....

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Art White
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2007-03-28          140806

Greg, not to argue but scut is just sub-compact utility tractor. Both were probably just started by someone in marketing I have to agree. You do under rate the subs as none of them I'm aware of are a Cat O totally. The newer Kubota BX is actually a full Cat 1 hitch as they chaged there hitch and it works with all true size cat 1 attachments but they will still have trouble with the shortline equipment that is built Cat 1-2 for there marketing purposes. Who deicided to start spitting hairs anyway?
For what I've seen many of the sub-cuts are built very close to there larger brothers, just better for the owners situations. A normal garden or lawn tractor weighs about half of the weight of a scut so there is a good difference for the compact size and when you add the versatility for the person with a couple of acres he gets a power machine to have at his will.
After all don't the real farmers still use horses to get there hay in? ....

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Murf
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2007-03-28          140807

As the old saying goes, "The devil lives in the details.".

If you scroll up, you will notice that I was quite explicit, even if I did not point it out in stronger terms, when I spoke about a second machine, purely for cutting grass.

I made two references, 1) "...dedicated pro-style grass getter.", and 2) ".....front deck commercial unit with a 3cyl. diesel.".

I rarely recommend, or even agree with a homeowner buying a ZTR (Zero Turn Radius) mower.

They are a good unit, but have several drawbacks, and are (relatively) spendy because of a feature that is not only, mostly, lost on a homeowner, it is actually a hinderance. They are; 1) the deck is UNDER your feet not in front, 2) the front wheels that the whole mower (and you) ride on, are relatively small caster wheels, 3) they require 2 handed operation, 4) they can easily shred a lawn by turning too fast, and 5) in soft condidtions they will mark a lawn due to the small front caster wheels.

I always suggest a more 'traditional' machine (with the deck out front) like the Ferris Pro-Cut or the (now Toro) Ransommes Jaguar (and others) that are available with a diesel.

The front deck and hand steering via a wheel or yoke is far more home-owner friendly, the big front deck is in front, so it can be stuck several feet under a tree without getting the operator under there too, they can be run with one hand, for beverages, 2 way radio, or even a trash picker to deal with branches etc., on the fly.

I also find the front-deck machines have a far superior ride due to the fact that the whole machine is sitting on pneumatic tires, and only the deck rides (partially) on small casters. The seat is usually spring mounted on a FMM, whereas that is not common on a ZTR.

All in all, a ZTR mower is, IMHO, akin to buying the biggest truck, with the biggest engine, for a downtown city dweller. Like Larry the Cable Guy says, "Jus' don't make no sense.". Why spend lots of money on features and abilities that are a hinderance not benefit?

Best of luck. ....

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tuolumne
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2007-03-28          140809

I would be considering something in the 52" walk behind range, possibly with a sulky or skid plate. Who needs to mow at 15 mph! Especially with 5 little moving targets playing ball at the same time. Along these lines, what sort of mower will get the kids on it first? Hydrostatic grips on a walk behind can be pretty hard to squeeze. I zero turn would be easy to go, but they can't reach the brake for a long time. Still, it seems that a walk behind would be operable sooner to my mind. ....

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sugarmaple
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2007-03-28          140811

I too am in the mmm vs 3ph mower quandry. The difference is that I have used the 3ph exclusively for 15 years plus with 16 and 19 hp Kub's, and am dreaming about a mmm because of shorter mowing radius, better quality mowing, easier steering and much faster mowing. Occasionally when my 8200 is in the pits, my neighbor is kind enough to lend me his 7200 with a 4'mower and it is much faster than the 8200 with the 5' 3ph mower. There are often mmm's for sale here on the web to fit the older rigs and they can usually be had quite reasonably. I am debating a $750 unit that is only about 5 hours away. Floatation/compaction/ag tread issues are another matter, as well as diminished tractor utility with mmm mounted. With the loader it is easy enough to lift the tractor to slide the deck in and out.So many issues, so much good daydreaming.... ....

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cutter
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2007-03-28          140815

Murf makes all good points about the zeros. More stuff for you to ponder.

When I started looking, I found the difference in cost between a decent "homeowner" machine compared to a "commercial" rig to be a small amount of money well spent.

Having owned a "commercial" Grasshopper at one time, I did not want another machine that put the mower in front of me and filled my coffee cup with grass. Even if you are way back, such as Ferris permits, the wind still makes sure you get covered.

The one thing I wish I had done is to have gone with a Kubota diesel. I just had a problem with those several thousand dollars extra at the time.

If you want a good machine that allows you to sit or stand, and I like standing for the visibility, take a look at the Wright machines. They have a homeowner's version with a 48" cut for less than 5k last time I looked. ....

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SG8NUC
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2007-03-29          140827

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the Info, one thing I am sure about is that I do not want grass or dirt in the Beer. I just need something that would turn sharper than my present mower. In and out of flower beds and flowering srubs. In the future I will plan more and mow less.

Phil ....

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kthompson
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2007-03-29          140829

Has the point of look at all you will be cutting before you buy to be sure what you can use. Measure the narrow points and look at the tightest turns. That may make the decision for you. Don't forget to allow for any discharge shutes or wheels.


I used and like the RFM with tractor very well. Purchased a hydro for that and enjoyed it more. The reason I bought a zero turn was for the trim work and areas my tractor and RFM would not fit in easy. That is also the reason I went with their homeowners model. Also clears limbs better. For those reasons the front mounted mower did not make sense for me. I did end up using my ztr for more of the grass cutting than expected.

I think Murf is correct on the ztr ride. It is designed to keep you awake. However my CUT with loader tires does also.

You see very little front mounted decks here, probably 97% of all the commercials use ZTRs. I have Bush Hog brand as is my RFM. Their commerical line did and I think still does have a pivoting front axle which can be locked but the pivoting helps with the bumps. Also watch the wheel base on a ZTR, again the Bush Hog commercial has a long wheel base which also helps with the ride. It also offer a top notch seat, much better than what the Dixie Chopper seat looks to be. Looking at the Bush Hog side by side with the Dixie Chopper the BH has longer wheel base, pivoting front axle and again looks like their seat all together would give much better ride than the Chopper. Same dealer here has both. He told me the only reason he brought in the Dixie Chopper line was for a lower price product line.

Someone said something about the brakes on a ZTR, what brakes? I have not seen one with other than a parking brake. I would suspect a smaller person can operate my ZTR than they could say a tractor style mower. At same time please, DO NOT LET ANY LITTLE ONES or big ones either be in the yard when any mower is running. All mowers throw items that have killed and blinded. They also will bounce off of trees and such and hit the operator. Ask ER or EMS people.

Now do I have it right, need to fertlizer the grass so it will grow, need to water it so it will grow, need to cut it caused it did grow. Right? kt
....

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SG8NUC
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2007-03-29          140834

KT,

You are the smartest man I know. ....

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kthompson
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2007-03-29          140839

Ole SG, you need to know some more people, like Murf, Art and Oneance would be a good start. :) kt ....

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SG8NUC
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2007-03-29          140841

I must agree with you 100%. ....

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Murf
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2007-03-30          140851

Thanks for the kind words guys, flattery will get you everywhere!! :)

Cutter, how in the heck do you and up with grass clippings in your coffee? I must think that either, your mower should have been equipped with Gator blades, or the discharge chute was set incorrectly, or missing.

Following up on Kenneths very good safety point, although removing the deflector hood on a mower deck is tempting, so as to allow a closer approach to obstacles, DON'T DO IT!! They are there for a reason!! The angle of them is such that grass (which is very light) will flow smoothly out through the discharge chute, but heavier objects such as rocks will take a different trajectory (more straight out, not anbgled back slightly) and bounce off the side of the chute and not be a hazard to anyone (or thing) nearby.

If the chute is a problem, either learn to put the opposite side up against things, or put a small eye ring on top of it, and use a small piece of twine between it and the steering column (or something else handy within reach) to flip it up when needed, then BACK DOWN with a stick or your toe.

Even a small piece of dry twig is all it takes to cause a nasty incident.

Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2007-03-30          140853

Murf,

I wish I knew the answer to your question as I traded a three month old Grasshopper on a Kubota because the problem would not go away. The deck was tilted correctly from front to rear and I did have the Gator blades on it. I purchased the mower new, it had the 18hp Vanguard engine and 5' front mounted deck.

The day could be dead calm, not a breeze, and after mowing for half an hour my entire body was covered with grass clippings. I had the dealer come here and try it and he told me that was "normal" for a front-mounted commercial unit.

So I said to myself, lesson learned :) ....

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kthompson
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2007-03-30          140854

Cutter,

If you had an 18 hp engine and a 5 foot deck, is it possible it was underpowered and not throwing your clippings as it should? kt ....

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Murf
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2007-03-30          140858

Cutter, that's wierd to say the least, did your machine have a discharge spout or chute or it? The only time I get any clippings at all on me, with either one of the Ferris Pro-cuts, or the Ransmommes Jaguar (older version of the Toro Groundsmaster 3280-D) I have at the house, is if it is very dry and very windy, other than that the grass never does anything but drop to the ground.

If I have the big powered collector on, the bin sits next to me, that's a whole 'nuther story. ;)

Kenneth, 18hp is not underpowered at all for this type of unit, the comapny that invented the front deck mower, Ferris, used an 18hp Kholer Magnum on them for many years, it wasn't until more recent years they went to the 25hp engine on them. They would fly with an 18hp engine, the only time it was a problem was in real heavy stuff, on hills, or when using the deck-powered collection system.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2007-03-30          140859

Ken, not for nothing but in days gone before electric PTO clutches we sold 13 horsepower engines with 60" decks!!!! I know tht hurts but they did work at about three to four miles an hour but the thing to remember is they also were moving 3/4's of a ton of tractor if not more! ....

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belly mower vs rear mower

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2007-03-30          140865

Every so often you see a thread and it reminds you of a pervious experience you would have never remembered. I had an old (model 1842 or 1850 I think) grasshopper with a little 3-cyl kubota diesel. It would shower me with grass clippings if the wind was in the correct direction - most unplesant. I can totally relate to that post. I dont know what it was about the design but the grass used to come out of the chute and then peel back over the deck and hit you straight in the face. At the end of the session you needed a blow off with the compressed air. Thanks for the memories. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-03-30          140866

Art, we still have a few of the old 68" & 84" National Triplex reel mowers around. They're as tough as nails, you can't kill them.

The 84" (7' cut!!!) is powered by a 10hp one cylinder Wisconsin.

It flies through grass like theres no tomorrow!!!

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2007-03-30          140869

Cutter and Anne, know now why I passed on the Grasshoper. A friend sells it just could not get comfortable with it.

Art and Murf, also remember push mower with 3 hp that cut very good and today that same size mower uses a 5 hp. I suspect the hp ratings have varied over the years. Could be due to epa or something else. kt

....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2007-03-30          140870

No problem Ann, what are friends for except to help stir up those fond memories... ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2007-03-30          140881

For the push mowers the biggest difference was the mulchers! Bolens was one of the first to play with it but at a measley four horse people were frustrated with the performance. Today they are six plus for even those with just side discharge.

Thru the years there ave been many decks that let the grass blow out on the operator, many recieved updates to eliminate the problem and some don't.

Murf, the bad part of those is sharpening those blades and the long clippings. ....

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