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Differential Lockers and Limitied Slip Units

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-16          66371

Well...... found out why I was getting rear wheel spin on my Dodge. It is an open rear differential according to the dealer. I dug out my window sticker, checked the glove box label, and the dealer ran the VIN # and sure enough, no mention of anti-spin. Just the Dana 80 with 3.55 gears. To be honest I have not had but a few instances where wheel spin was an issue. Usually both wheels try to spin even on a wet boat ramp. Anyhow, I am trying to spin myself up on differential locks that are suitable for use in towing applications. From what I have read so far the Detroit Locker, and Lock Rite types are not compatable for use in towing. The ARB Locker seems to be the best all round unit but the price causes "sticker shock". I am not sure I can use the Dana limited slip units without changing out other items which is even more expensive. I like the idea of an open diff. on the road and lockable diff. off road. I am going to jack up the rear axle and check to see for myself if it is an open diff. or not. I tow pretty heavy and go off road more than occasionally. I know a few of you guys like AC5ZO do some off roading. Any suggestions, comments, feedback, and experiences would be very helpful. Thanks.

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-10-16          66380

I used to run a Toyota 4X4 in Baja and it had open diff. Never a problem with the diff and wheel slippage was not an issue. I did rebuild the tranny twice in 100K miles due to a design flaw in the tranny.

Our race cars all use open differentials with beefed up pinions.

My GMC Sierra 4X4 has a stock limited slip and it works well. I could hear it locking up a bit on tight turns when it was new, but it works fine now. Between the limited slip and automatic transmission in the GMC, it does get better traction than the Toyota did.

The H2 is full time 4WD. It has three differentials. You can lock the center and rear differentials. The locks automatically kick out if you go over a specified speed in low range. The front diff is conventional. I have towed with the center differential locked, but there has never been a need to tow with the rear differential locked. There is also a switch to change the transmission shift points for towing to keep lower gears engaged longer.

Another system that works well is a traction control system that will independently brake a single wheel that is spinning. It will work on up to three wheels at a time. You can also set the desired amount of slip depending upon whether you are on snow/ice or sand. Hummer and Mercedes both have systems like this. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-16          66383

I talked with Barney at Reider Racing and he told me that for the applications I spoke of that the ARB Locker and the Dana Trac-Loc are my only two choices. He suggested the Trac-Loc as it was much easier on the drive train as far as stressing axle components in turns and the ARB is over twice the cost. He even gave me the number to a local distributor that handles his items. They told me $200 labor plus the cost of the differential which is between $450 - $550. I am inclined to wait and see how the truck works as is and go with the LS differential when and if I have traction problems. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2003-10-16          66385

I have a 94 Cummins Ram 4x4 which came new with the open Dana 80 rear (Near useless in snow in 2wd with 5-speed) I installed a Loc-Rite locker in the rear with acceptable results. Tire wear is accelerated but traction is much better. I don't tow all the time, but do tow often up to 10k trailer with out any problems. Truck now has 150 k miles on it, 100k on lock rite with no problems. Make sure to change rear fluid at max 50k miles with a locker. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-16          66386

AV8R, did you install the locker your self? From what I have read, the lockers are the easiest to install. How difficult would you rate installing it? Do you get much racheting noise or jump in the drive train going around corners? How does it behave when engaging to lock the axles? Thanks. ....

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JAZ
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2003-10-16          66396

LOC-RIGHT IS THE WAY TO GO. I INSTALLED ONE IN MY 8.8 FORD REAR IN LESS THAN 30 MIN. WITH AN AIR RATCHET AND HAVE 20,000 MILES ON IT WITH NO PROBLEMS. A LITTLE PRICEY BUT IT MAKES UP FOR THE MAN HOURS AND A SHOP CHARGE. LITTLE NOISE WHEN THE REAR OIL IS THICK IE. 0 DEGREES HOWEVER IT DOES NOT ACT LIKE A TEMPERMENTAL 9 INCH DETRIOT LOCKER DOES. BUT ALSO LIKE A LOCKER YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFULL IN APPLYING POWER ON A CURVE IN SLICK WEATHER. ....

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bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2003-10-17          66407

The Trac-Loc is a limited slip. It has clutches in it that will split the torque to both rear wheels but will never lock up. It will send the majority of the torque to the wheel without traction. You can somewhat fool it into sending more to the wheel with traction by applying some brake pedal or e-brake. It will confuse the brake resistance for traction on the slipping tire and send more to the non slipping tire. They arent very expensive to buy but they require that the ring gear be pulled out and reshimmed so the labor will cost some. All clutch type Limited slips require that a friction modifier be added to the diff fluid so the clutches will grab correctly without wearing out too fast.
A lock-rite or EZ Locker (lunchbox locker) are easy to install, the ring gear doesnt have to be removed, only the spider gears and they are inexpensive to buy. They are actual lockers that will apply 100% torque to both wheels when locked. Their normal state is locked. They will unlock and ratchet when one wheel over speeds the rest of the drivetrain (0 torque is applied), such as going around a corner, the outer wheel will actually unlock and ratchet. This is where they get their bad slick road manners. If you give it throttle in a turn, and the inner wheel slips and turns the same speed as the outer, they will lock together and the vehicle will want to travel straight ahead, pushing towards the outside of the turn. They are perfectly fine on the road if you are easy on the throttle and dont mind the ratcheting noise when turning.
A Detroit Locker is a ratcheting locker just like the ones above except it requires that the ring gear but pulled out and reshimmed and the cost is about double that of a lunchbox locker but you get alot more strength. Ive got a short wheelbase vehicle with a Detroit and it can get squirrely, but a heavy, long wheelbase should be much more polite.
An ARB air locker is a selectable locker. It is either open or completely locked on demand, no ratcheting. ARBs are expensive and require an air compressor, air lines and the ring gear must be pulled and reshimmed so the install is also expensive and involved. There are a couple of electric lockers on the market now but they are only made for a limited number of differential types. They operate the same as an air locker, only using electric. There is also a selectable locker made by Ox Tracs that is cable activated but its also limited application.
Sorry this is so long winded but Ive tried to be accurate in describing how these differentials work.
P.S. The easiest way to tell if you have an open or limited slip is to lift the whole rear end up and spin a wheel. An open diff, the wheels will spin opposite each other, a clutch type limited slip, the wheels will spin the same direction. Or you can pull the diff cover and look for the spider gears that an open diff has.
Those are the facts, heres an opinion. I would only go for a locker of some sort if its more of a work truck and smooth, quiet operation isnt important. A locker on Packed snow or ice is cause for stained undies. If you have a luxury ride that sees occational offroad trails or snowy/icy conditions, the limited slip is definately the way to go. A limited slip with some brake feathering will get you through most stuff short of actually lifting a tire off the ground. If you never lift a tire, you dont need a locker. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-17          66428

bnrhuffman, very well put. Not to worry at all about the lengthy reply. You pretty well went down the list of my thinking process as well as JAZ. I am thinking that the limited slip is the best for my application. Thanks to ALL for the great replies. ....

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boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
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2003-10-18          66515

Chief, for more info talk to the guys at Randy's Ring and Pinion;1-866-391-4539. See the attached web link.
Tech info line:425-348-9002. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2003-10-24          67029

Sorry- Broken Computer!!

I did installation myself with hand tools. Worst part was had to remove ring gear from carrier to get spider pin out. Carrier is extremely heavy! I did not have any trouble, however I do have alot of tinkering in my background, so i've been inside axles before. Nothing that any semi mechanically inclined person could do with minimal fuss. 4 out of 10

Clutch type "Posi" would be better, (less/no ratcheting) but at the time price was prohibative. I've driven Detroit lockers "forever" so I am used to the clicking, clunking, chattering and outright banging which a locker does. Like I said, 100k miles with no mechanical problems.

BTW, rear anti-lock brake performance is awkward at best now.

....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-02-14          106093

I have a '03 4x Ram diesel H.O. with the 4:10 anti-spin axle in the rear. Like another post said, if you get stuck, like I did the other day on ice, put it in LOW, get the trans to shift into 2nd and tap the brakes--this will cause the spinning tire to slow and conversely, the one that is not spinning to spin. This is a trick I used to do on my off-road Jeeps that had 35" tires AND open diffs. This works better with taller/meatier tires (more mass) if you let them all come to a stop, then engage them all at the same time--the torque tends to split to all four tires equally even when one is not able to spin. I had an engineer in our Jeep club tell me this defies the laws of physics---and he watched me do it! Works every time. ....

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Ym1110d
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22 Wisconsin
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2005-11-05          118962

I installed a Powertrax unit in my D80 open diff. Due to my installation error the unit broke almost immediatly. Richmond gear stood behind their unit and repaired it for no charge. The second installtion went smoothly and the unit has been trouble free since then. This unit definetly works. The tire are locked together most of the time. You do get the ocassional bang or clicking as the unit ratchets. There is also a slight surge as the inside tire is accelerated when cornering. For the cost difference of swapping in the Powertrax vs having the rear end reset for a new differential, I feel it has a excellent value. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2005-11-05          118964

What seems to be working well for me is that I added a composite box to the bed and filled it with about 400 lbs. of lead weights. The added weight in the bed greatly help traction and I rarely get tire spin. I don't even miss the limited slip diff. now. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-11-05          118966

I have a factory limited slip differential on the Tundra. I can drive just about anywhere on my land and off road in two wheel drive.

I have driven similar trucks on the same land and they don't go anywhere without 4wd engaged.

....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2005-11-05          118972

Almost 200k on the Dodge (150k on the Loc-Rite) and still like it. Truck is semi-retired now (diesel is now just below $3/gallon) but it has been a great adder to the truck, IMHO.

Like I said before, near worthless without a traction aiding device, in 2wd. (94 Cummins-Dodge, 5 speed, 4x4) ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-11-05          118976

I have the stock limited slip Dana in the 2000 Dodge 3500. I have not had it off road much and have had it stuck but pulled out of it. I took it through the passes in California and Oregon last year when they were demanding chains. With the 5 speed and limited slip it was no problem. I was passing the 4x4 as they don't know how to drive in snow.
I had the diff oil changed last year (75K). You need to baby the Dana limited slip as with the clutches it does wear the oil more than you expect.

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-11-07          119053

Like Randy, I think a little weight over the drive tires helps a bunch too.

According to the plow manufacturer my truck needs a minimum of 700 # of ballast, all of it as far behind the rear axle as possible when snow plowing. I run 1,000 # and it makes a huge difference, plow or not.

When we order the trucks we rarely spec. them with L/S unless it's a 2wd truck, or a 1/2 ton gas truck, the diesels just rip them up anyways.

My truck walks in & out my cottage road (goat path?) in 2WD like it's a half-track, as long as I have some weight over the back 4 wheels. Empty the truck spins on wet asphalt under normal acceleration.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-11-07          119058

Gee....... ballast equals traction? Where have we heard that before? ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-11-07          119097

The last time I was in Ontario it started to snow so I threw in about 1200 lbs of wood pellets and filled the tank. No problem. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-11-08          119124

Maybe I wasn't clear enough......

In the PC terminology, my truck is tractionally challenged.

If traction was rated as a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being unspinnable, 1 being "you're going nowhere", my truck kind of lines up like this.

On dry pavement at say 72°, the unladen rear end is about a 4.

On wet pavement, the unladen rear end is about a 2.

Moderate ballast basically doubles those numbers. The 1,000 # I run all winter makes it nearly unstoppable.

A locking or L/S rear end wouldn't be anywhere near as good at getting, and keeping, the truck rolling.

So, my point was, IMHO the rear end lock is only the thin edge of the (highly over-rated) 'traction' wedge.

Why spend hundreds of dollars for something that likely won't do jack anyways. Toss some weight on the drive tires and just be done with it.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2005-11-08          119125

I wasn't being critical. I was pointing out it works for tractors too....

I absolutely agree that weight in the bed is the way to go with the proviso that you still have to stop the thing.

All those winters in Alaska taught me that it is easier to get going than to get stopped. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-11-08          119126

When I lived in the (sort of) suburbs I had a neighbour who had bought the most expensive house he could possibly afford, at the expense of everything else, including his wheels.

It was almost comical, nice house, 2 15 - 20 year old derelict cars, 19" push mower for a 2 acre lot, etc., etc.

I routinely had to boost his car, or plow the winrow left by the town snow plow, so he could get out of his driveway. He had no snow blower or anyone to clear the driveway either. He said shovelling was cheaper than paying for membership at gym. ;->

Then one snowy morning, much to my surprise, he pulled up in a brand new Toyota 4Runner, smiling ear-to-ear, told me I had boosted his car and plowed his driveway for the last time, and off he went down the snowy road.

When I got out near the main road, were our street made a big sweeping downhill curve, there in the middle of somebody's lawn, was my neighbour & his new truck.

It seems he had failed to read the part in the owner's manual about 4WD having little impact on the steering or brakes effectiveness.

It's real good at getting idiots going way too fast though.

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-11-08          119127

"It's real good at getting idiots going way too fast though."

We should be seeing a bunch of them at first snow any day now. :) ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-11-08          119128

"We should be seeing a bunch of them at first snow any day now. :)"

Been there, done that already ......

Friday was a true example of the old adage about the weather in Canada, "If you don't like the weather, either wait 5 minutes and it will change, or drive a few miles down the road, it will be different there.".

One of my crews are finishing up a job north of here a ways, about 400 miles north actually.

In Toronto it was sunny and 65° on Friday, it was 34° and they got a little over 4" of wet snow at the site.

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-11-08          119131

Murf;
A number of years ago I had a 74 Jeep Cherokee with AWD. When I bought it my father said they had some in the BC Hydro and they felt so sure footed that they would bite you. You would be travelling too fast for the conditions. It did once as I put it in the snow bank at a country crossing in ice conditions.
There is something to be said to learning how to drive in adverse conditions. Most of us have made some mistakes. It would be nice if the average joe public had some desire to learn. It is not always a beautiful day even in California. ....

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