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Off road vs Taxed Pump diesel

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Chief
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2003-08-02          60764

Anyone notice any difference between the red off road and regular green taxed road diesel? I am about to run my first tank full of off road diesel and will share my observations. More of a curiosity thing than anything else. I'd run "trail apple" juice if it would burn! ;-)

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Billy
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2003-08-02          60766

Chief, you might notice a little more sulfur smell, with the off-road. That's the only difference I've noticed. ....

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Peters
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2003-08-02          60770

I have not noticed any difference and have switched back and forth as I do not have my own tank and the off road local seller has odd hours. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-03          60810

Never noticed any difference myself. There are stories around about the red dye clogging fuel filters, but I think they're likely just stories. I haven't noticed a sulfur wiff either. #2 off-road is likely identical to furnace oil. The sulfur content varies but I think it never gets very high or people start reclaiming the sulfur.

No matter what fuel is purchased, it's good to stick with a reasonably high volume dealer. Condensation water or algae along with the fuel or summer blend in the middle of winter can be problems.
....

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harvey
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2003-08-03          60811

In our, companys, little gravel plant operation at Polkville our loaders, dragline, dozers, etc. use over 900 gallons of fuel a day. We have never seen a filter plugged by dye. I would also say no one has ever noticed a sulfur smell. The big Cat's and Cummings have no problems with the fuel.

I use the dyed fuel here and have never noticed a sulfur smell or a problem with HP except when I have it cut with Kero for Jan and Feb and run it it the warm months.

But we do have a guy at work who has a very sensitive nose a he can smell a mouse that breaks wind 20 feet upwind... Wellllll that might be streching it a bit but a good fart will gag him :-) ....

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Peters
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2003-08-03          60817

I have worked a lot with sulfur compounds so I can tell when the sulfur content is higher. I could say the offroad content is higher as I have had tanks of onroad which are high. I has been less since they started trying to reduce it though. ....

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lbrown59
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2006-04-29          128554

1*Never noticed any difference myself.
2*I haven't noticed a sulfur whiff either.
3*Off-road is likely identical to furnace oil.
4*No matter what fuel is purchased, it's good to stick with a reasonably high volume dealer.
TomG

***********
1*Difference in color is all I've seen.
2*I've never seen suffer increase or decrease by adding the red dye.
3*Same stuff according the Ashland bulk plant here.
4*Which one of these would you deduce as a high volume dealer?
Local Go Mart truck stop selling on road diesel to truckers or Ashland bulk plant and 2 other distributors assisting Ashland with delivery of off road diesel?
....

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brokenarrow
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2006-05-14          129352

From everything I have ever been told. The two are the same from the same place and more than likely the same time frame. Dye is added for one reason and one reason only, for the state to determine if they are getting gipped. Anything related to agriculture (only) is non- taxable here.
Thats what I was told by the state anyways.
....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-14          129360

Since the tax is a State or Federal highway use tax
the only time it's taxable is when a vehicle is driven on a US or State Highway;
therefore the tax would not apply on vehicles operated on county and township roads or city streets.

....

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Murf
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2006-05-15          129375

lbrown, that is so absolutely wrong & illegal it isn't even funny.

The State & Federal gove. collect the money, but hand it down through county & municipal levels to subsidize every mile of every "public" road in the nation.

Also, it applies in most cases to things like boats also, since a portion of the "road tax" is what pays for navigational markers, launching ramp, public docks, etc., on the various waterways around the country.

Best of luck. ....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-15          129378

*lbrown, that is so absolutely wrong & illegal it isn't even funny.

The State & Federal govt. collect the money, but hand it down through county & municipal levels to subsidize every mile of every "public" road in the nation.

Also, it applies in most cases to things like boats also, since a portion of the "road tax" is what pays for navigational markers, launching ramp, public docks, etc., on the various waterways around the country.

Best of luck.
==========
+In light of what you say it certainly would be incorrect.
I sure stated my post wrong-it should have read >> Since the tax is a State or Federal highway use tax wouldn't the tax only be applicable when a vehicle is driven on a US or State Highway; but not if operated on county and township roads or city streets?
I should have posed it as a question instead of a statement.
Sorry for my bad choice of wording. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-15          129382

Sorry if I sounded a little 'harsh' also.

This is forum, a place of learning, there are no dumb questions.

Best of luck. ....

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steve4300
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2006-05-18          129535

I have been told the fine for running off road fuel over the road is not all that bad, only $1000.00 per gallon of the capacity of the fuel tank. Plus they get to check all the rest of your trucks for violation. It could ruin your day real quick. ....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-18          129537

Plus they get to check all the rest of your trucks for violation
-------------------------
Check for what violation?
....

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Billy
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2006-05-18          129541

SPECIAL FUELS
The special fuels tax is refundable for any use other than to propel or operate a motor vehicle on a public road.
Special fuels are nontaxable if used in:
* Unregistered off-road equipment
* A stationary engine
* A refrigeration unit
* A motor vehicle to operate its power take-off equipment and/or auxiliary engine
* A motor vehicle owned and operated or leased and operated by the federal government or the state, including its political subdivisions
* A motor vehicle that is operated on roads that are not open to the public
* A heating device (home furnace, space heater, etc.)

Special fuels include undyed diesel, dyed diesel, biodiesel, diesel blends (e.g. B-20), and any other fuels suitable for use in a diesel engine. Special fuels also include propane and natural gas. ....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-19          129547

* A motor vehicle that is operated on roads that are not open to the public. Billy Passmore
**********
* Would this include Both Registered & Unregistered vehicles? ....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-19          129548

I have been told the fine for running off road fuel over the road is not all that bad, only $1000.00 per gallon of the capacity of the fuel tank. Plus they get to check all the rest of your trucks for violation. It could ruin your day real quick.
steve4300
-------------------------
From what I can gather the fine is not for running off road fuel on the road.
....

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kthompson
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2006-05-19          129572

Want to mess up the tax guys???

Develop a chemical that would cancel out the red or green dye.

Want to find a retirement home Develop a chemical that would cancel out the red or green dye.

I have used both off road and hwy taxed diesel fuel in differenct tractors for a few years depending on where I had to buy from. The only difference I have found is the price.

Good thing the fine for using off road on hwy is not serious. Hey, what if we were to tell the FEDS, the illegals are all using off road fuel. For a $1,000 a piece fine they might be interested. Or better yet, tell congress they are sneaking in for BIG OIL. LOL
kt
....

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Murf
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2006-05-23          129730

The fine IS for using untaxed fuel in a taxable use, such as driving a vehicle on the road. In a lot of jurisdictions you cannot even operate certain legitimate "farm use" vehicles on the road with coloured fuel.

BTW, a loaf of bread in an oinion bag will remove almost all of the colourant. But don't get caught doing it, the 'dye' also has a chemical additive that is NOT removed by removing the colour. The inspectors have a test kit which requires just a drop of fuel to tell that it is untaxed fuel.

From what I have seen & heard, the fine is usually $10,000+ as well as an amount equal to double what they feel you have escaped paying.

In any case, even just the legal cost can be substantial defending yourself.

Oh, and they usually impound the offending vehicle as 'evidence' until the trial comes up.

Best of luck. ....

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unit5alive
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2006-05-30          130017

Heres another question, is the on road fuel better refined ? and will the on road or off road give better life to the pump ? ....

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lbrown59
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2006-05-30          130027

will the on road or off road give better life to the pump ?
==================
The red dye has no effect on this ! ....

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Murf
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2006-05-30          130028

LBrown is right when he says the red dye has no effect....

However, there is a bunch of differences other than just some dye.

Most important amongst them is the level of refinement and the levels of certain components. Although it is changing to meet newer EPA requirements, off-road diesel is much highher in sulphur than is road fuel.

To a diesel engine sulphur acts as a lubricant to the pump and injectors. In fact when they first came out with low sulphur fuel a lot of people had to rebuild/replace their fuel system because of the premature wear caused by the lack of lubricant.

New vehicles have this already designed into the system and can run fine on the newer fuels, but older systems still need a good quality additive to ensure they get proper lubrication.

Best of luck. ....

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unit5alive
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2006-05-31          130111

Thanks guys ! ....

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gbigblock
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2007-02-18          139846

the only difference in the fuel is the dye. the feds. do it so they know if the tax has been added. don't get caught using it on the road. ....

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Murf
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2007-02-19          139860

gbigblock, the fuel is NOT the same, in most cases it very similar, but it has MUCH higher levels of sulphur and parrafin (wax) amongstr other things that can cause issues in some high performance diesels.

In most cases dyed diesel is not really diesel at all, it is home heating oil with dye added to it.

It also usually has a much lower cetane level than 'pump' diesel you get at the gas station does.

If high cetane clean diesel is basically the same price as dyed, why run crappy fuel in an expensive engine?

Best of luck. ....

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Billy
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2007-02-19          139863

Murf, I think it must be different from place to place. I filled my 300 gallon tank last month and had this discussion with the supplier. He told me they had one grade of diesel fuel for farm and road. They just add the red dye for the farm. Right now their diesel is low sulfur at 500 ppm but will soon be ultra low at 15 ppm. ....

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Murf
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2007-02-19          139864

Billy, if that is the case that would REALLY surprise me, I'm in the oil industry through one of my businesses and that exact subject was covered in an article in a recent trade magazine.

The oil industry expert (a PHD who works for one of the ig oil co's research dept.) was describing all the problems low sulphur fuel can cause on older diesels, and how with off-road (construction, stationary and Ag. engines) the sulphur, or at least a very good substitute was CRITICAL to ensure engine life when they were run on low sulphur fuel.

The bottom line of the article was as tempting as it was to run a single type of diesel, it was a huge risk to older equipment unless the distributor was willing to either pay for and preload the additives, or at least get an acknowledgement signed by each customer saying they knew what they were getting, and would add the necessary additives and absolve the dealer of any liability for a toasted engine.

Any clue if your fuel is already doped up or not?

Best of luck. ....

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Billy
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2007-02-19          139865

Murf, I just got off the phone with my supplier. I wanted to make sure I got this right. I was wrong on the sulfur ppm. All they're delivering now is the 15 ppm. For farm diesel, they treat it at the farm tank. They add Diesel Treat 2000 Fuel Additive. The link below will give you more information on the additive. ....


Link:   Diesel Treat 2000 Fuel Additive

 
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Chief
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2007-02-19          139867

Maybe this might help make things clear as mud. ;-) ....


Link:   ULSD

 
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Murf
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2007-02-19          139873

So it appears that we're both right Billy, they are probably required now under EPA rules to ship only low sulphur stuff.

I see from the site you linked to that they have the following to say baout the additive your dealer is putting in the fuel;

"To protect today’s diesel engines from fuel system related wear Schaeffer Oil has further blended into the Winterized Diesel Treat 2000 is a proprietary lubricity additive called Synshield™. Synshield™ is one of the few lubricity additives that not only surpasses industry standards for diesel fuel lubricity but also exceeds the EPA’s new standard by being the only lubricity additive that does not contain sulfur or sulfur containing compounds."

So it appears they are protecting the engines with this additive.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2007-02-19          139875

Maybe I missed it but, are the newer off road and ag type engines now made for low sulpher fuels? If so any idea how long ago they were being built that way? Using the term "older" to me means longer than to a 20 year old. ....

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Murf
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2007-02-19          139877

My understanding of it is that the manufacturers started making the various components ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) fuel safe right after the EPA mandated the new fuel requirements.

If memory serves, that was about 3 years ago now, around this time in 2003, with a 2 year phase in period.

The new fuel reg's and incentives are wreaking havoc in LOTS of other areas too, in the aviation world it's getting pretty scary, the addition of Ethanol in growing levels to gasoline is a dangerous thing for both ultra-lights, most of which run 2 stroke Rotax mills which don't stand up to the alcohol, both because it affects the fuel / oil mix staying mixed, and because it strips the oil off the surfaces, but also in GA (general aviation) aircraft which are specially modified and have been approved to run on regular automobile gasoline.

In all of these cases the engines are failing prematurely. The fact that it's difficult to pull over and stop on the nearest cloud is making for some very nervous pilots. ;)

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2007-02-19          139881

Murf; You spoke of the ethanol/gasoline W/two stroke oil mix not adhering to surfaces. Does that apply to any two stroke engines? I use the new John Deere synthetic two stroke oil in chain saws, leaf blowers, string trimmers, etc., does it stay mixed any better? Thanks. Frank. ....

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Billy
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2007-02-19          139882

Murf, I like it when we are both right! Makes things a lot easier. ;) ....

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Billy
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2007-02-19          139886

Hey Murf, since you're in the know! I asked my diesel supplier about adding Power Service Diesel Kleen to my storage tank. The only reason I wanted to add PS is for the stabilizer and I already have it.

He asked me how long I have had it and that the older PS was formulated to adhere to the sulfur molecules. That the older PS wouldn't stay suspended and would settle to the bottom. The newer PS was OK and was 100% compatible with Schaeffer. I know I got all the technical jargon wrong but...

Is there any way to find out if this is fact or fiction? ....

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JasonR
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2007-02-19          139887

The gas station by me just started dispensing the ultra low sulfer diesel. I've always used power service in my diesel - is this enough - or should I be adding something like the Schaeffer product as well? (I've got a JD 4110 built in 2000).

Thanks, Jason ....

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Billy
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2007-02-20          139905

Jason, I was just reading an article on ULSD and it hit on your question.

LUBRICITY. Traditional diesel fuel is a very effective lubricant, which is vital because the lower portions of the injector that meter and pressurize the fuel are not lubricated by the engine oil. Without sufficient lubrication from the fuel, they fail.

When sulfur is removed from diesel fuel, lubricants come out as well. But refiners “will be producing a better, more highly refined product, and adding a non-sulfur-based lubricity agent,” McKenna says. “Refiners and marketers do have to test the fuel for lubricity, and they know what they have to do to the fuel to make it pass the test.”

International materials note that the ULSD must meet the same standards for lubricity as traditional diesel. Cydni Nigh of Cummins and Tim Tindall, EPA ’07 director at Detroit Diesel, agree that lubricity additives should take care of any problems before the fuel reaches the pump, even without the fuel additives and premium diesel grades that will be marketed as lubricity enhancers. ....


Link:   The ultra-lowdown

 
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Murf
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2007-02-20          139906

Frank, the problem is universal, even some 4 strokes and auto engines are having problems with this new fuel. Rotax, probably the biggest manufacturer issued a bulletin saying that gasoline used in their engines should never exceed 5% ethanol, but since most states mandate a minimum of 10% that's going to be tricky to follow.

Billy, I don't know about any change to the PS product, and most additive manufacturers are pretty tight-lipped about their 'secret recipe' anyway. I'm sure if you sent an email to their tech. people you get the straight poop on it. I'd be surprised if that was the case, usually the aim of any additive to obtain a very uniform mixture, designing it to 'stick' to something doesn't make much sense.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2007-02-20          139909

Murf; Thanks for the info. Even tho I'm still involvwed in farming by leasing my land to a neighbor who raises all corn to help feed the ethanol industry, I hope we in the agriculture business haven't given the non farm public a false impression of ethanol solving our oil dependence problem. The truth is that If every bushel of corn we grow this year were processed into ethanol it could only provide 31% of our total gasoline needs. It was a good Idea in the begining 20 years ago when we finally realized how we are being held hostage by the oil barrons of the mid east. As most folks who have any connection to farming have noticed corn has gone from 2.30 abushel to 3.75 or more in the last 5 months. The ethanol producers were making roughly 2.15 per bushel profit on the corn they made into ethanol and the byproducts combined, last I knew their profits were less than 20 cents a bushel. so they are nervous to say the least. Lots of noise is being made about crop waste such as cornstalks, soybean straw, and switchgrass being processed into ethanol. I'm afraid the matter of harvesting, and transporting all the material not to mention the soil erosion problems caused by lack of ground cover and the replacement of the soil nutrients being hauled away in the corn stalks and bean straw will make it a net loss situation. My personal belief is that hydrogen is our best hope for long term independence form foreign oil. Just my ramblings. Frank. ....

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Billy
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2007-02-20          139910

I posted a reply earlier but deleted it. If anyone read it, this is an updated and more accurate post.

I just got off the phone with a PS technician. PS was reformulated back in early 2004 because of the suspension problems with the new ULSD. Any PS product made after June of 04 is good to go with the newer diesel. I do remember when Wal Mart took all PS from the shelves and it was a while before they had it restocked. I thought it was in 05 but it must have been back in 04. ....

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Murf
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2007-02-20          139913

Frank, they told us the ethanol blend was for several reasons, first, to boost farm income, second to reduce the dependance on foriegn oil, and lastly, and mostly, because just 10% ethanol makes a BIG difference in the emmissions levels.

Billy, good info., I recall them pulling it, I just wasn't aware of why.

I can go back to bed now, I learned something new today. :)

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2007-02-20          139916

Murf; Yes I'm not totally negative on ethanol, because it does reduce emmisions. Boosting farm income, yes and no. To the cash grain producer, yes a bonanza if the producer did'nt have it forward contracted at 2.50 and of course you must deliver on a contract, things get ugly real quick if you don't. To the livestock industry, not so great. Cow calf operators who were selling 6-700 pound feeder calves last summer for 1.15 to 1.25 per pound are now lucky to get 75 to 85 cents per pound. 1.25 calves and 4.00 corn don't work. Same with the hog producers, so good for the farmer, yes in some cases, no, for otheres. It will cycle, allways has allways will, calves will stay cheap, corn will go down, money made again on cattle. Enough from me. Frank. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2007-02-20          139918

The way I look at it is ethanol is a politicians dream-vote getter. Most voters don't look deep enough. With the incentives, it's gonna make a whole lot of people rich, very rich. But it ain't gonna do a thing for the everyday person but cost them money. ....

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