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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Diesel Fuel Lubrication Engine Additives Forum

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 09-26-2001, 10:05 Post: 32038
Kaz in Japan



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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Hi, I'm a collage student in Japan, researching engines. Does anyone have an idea of power source for mower or tractor in a near future? For example, diesel, gas, hybrid system, fuel cell, electrical motor or something else. Thanks for your reply.






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 09-26-2001, 11:30 Post: 32042
MarkS



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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Well I don't have any good replacements to the current diesel or gas engines, but keep in mind tractors are in need of lots of torque. HP is nice, but its torque that gets the job done. HP is just a derivative of Torque and RPM. As a general Rule tractors dont rev very high so torque is much more important.






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 09-26-2001, 13:06 Post: 32044
Murf

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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

As an Engineer by training I know that the single biggest problem with replacing something is NOT finding the replacement, it is finding the replacement INFRASTRUCTURE. As an example, you drive gasoline powered cars for many years, then you get a diesel powered vehicle, now you have to find diesel filling stations, gas is useless to you now, you need different maintenance and repair parts and likely different tools also. The same is true of this subject. If someone were to try to sell a tractor fueled by anything but gas or diesel, they would have to simultaneously create a widely available, dependable source of this alternate fuel, as well as the necessary dealers, parts, etc., in order to support this new group of tractors. Therefore, IMHO, the 'change' will be a subtle evolution, not a dramatic, sudden change. Probably the first large step will be to supplemental systems which improve the performance of the EXISTING technology. Some of these systems are (albeit, not widely) available today, such as the HPS (Hydrogen Power System) which converts water back to the basic gasses of Hydrogen & Oxygen, then injects them into the intake of an internal combustion engine which BOOSTS an engines performance, while REDUCING emmissions and fuel consumption. I presently use a system of this nature and can testify to it's effectiveness, and I doubt they will ever find a fuel source any cheaper than water. Best of luck.






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 09-26-2001, 14:54 Post: 32047
Norm



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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

One of those intermediate alternatives could be bio-diesel. There has been some good advances with it. It is renewable, grown from oil seeds of various sorts. The problems with it, as I understand, are: 1)its tendency to go bad - so greater care has to be given to its storage; and 2) reduced lubricating qualities.






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 09-26-2001, 18:51 Post: 32051
Peters

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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Kaz;
I am also engineer (automotive, plastic and electrical) and have worked on alternative power systems.
For normal tractor work you need high torque and a continuous base line power. The be able to run continuously all day long and have a readily available supply of fuel. A hybrid system is not practical for this application as the power requirement is nearly constant and no benefit can be gained by storing energy in a battery for slowing or hill decent. As Murf said other power system really are not practible at this point although fuel cells could be if they are converting a common fuel to hydrogen before use.
More efficient engines such as the splitfire for Austrailia may be more efficient for a tractor, but I have not seen much press on its development lately.
Your question also included mowers. Most mowers/garden tractors are used for relatively short periods of time 3hr or less and in a area that has electrical power. Use of Ni metal hydride or Li Ion batteries could provide the power and torque required. The main problem would be cost. Currently mower are supplied with VRLA batteries which have much less power density to the Lion or NiMH.
I have a friend that works for the Osaka Energy research lab that may be willing to help and is in this field also.
Peters






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 09-26-2001, 19:22 Post: 32052
Kaz in Japan



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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Dear Murf,
Would you tell me more detail about HPS? It seems like based on current diesel combustion engine with added Hydrogen and Oxygen injection system, not Hydrogen engine. Is this correct? Also, do you think we can install a simple system to produce Hydrogen and Oxygen and water tank on the vehicle, or need some special gas station to refill gas? Thanks.






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 09-27-2001, 06:29 Post: 32060
TomG

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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Don't know why my first post ended up in another thread--probably something I did. Also know if the post merits duplicating under the right thread, but for what it's worth, here it is.

Regarding cheap fuel sources: I recall reading a newspaper article sometime back. The article said that the dung from one elephant can satisfy the energy needs of a typical (I think it was) rural Thai family. The idea is to digest the dung and collect methane. I think there are some North American cattle operations where methane is collected and used as supplemental energy sources. However, I don't know how effective methane would be to fuel a tractor, and I believe there are some safety problems in its storage and use. But cheaper than water? Don't know. At least here in Canada not much is cheaper than water except maybe press releases from our leaders. Come to think about it maybe I like a comparison between dung and press releases better than with water.






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 09-27-2001, 07:32 Post: 32061
Peters

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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Kaz;
Water injection has been around for a long time. The problem is that not every engine can use the injection due to its design.
The basic principle is that you ignite the fuel and inject the water thereby heating the water to provide steam and increased torque and power. The main problem is that most systems do not supply the water at the correct point of the combustion cycle and most engines are not designed to utilize the increased torque.
The engine I mentioned, which I gave the wrong name is the split-cycle. Thus engine utilizes the expansive energy of the gas more effectively by a radical design. Water injection on this engine design is quite effective due to the huge piston area to stroke distance capable in this design.
Peters






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 09-27-2001, 08:42 Post: 32062
Murf

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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Kaz, your assumptions are correct. The HPS is an electrolysis-based system which converts (very refined) water back into it's base elements of Hydrogen and Oxygen then injects into the intake manifold of an existing, conventional, internal combustion engine as a gas. Peter, this is NOT merely water-injection, about which I agree with your comments. The HPS system could also be used on ANY other system where any hydrocarbon fuel is burnt to produce enrgy, such as furnaces, blast-type, or heating, even coal-fired electrical generating stations could achieve gains in thermal energy released and reduced emmisions. I have one on my truck and it works like a charm. The nice part about it is the 'fuel' is basically a gallon jug of water which will run about 150 hrs. of engine time, basically equating to about 7500 miles of highway driving. Best of luck.






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 09-28-2001, 17:21 Post: 32093
Steve in Buffalo NY



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 Diesel? Gas? Something else?

Peters- When you describe a constant torque engine as being good for tractors, it sounds like a gas turbine engine output. That was exactly the reason that they were NOT good for cars - turbine engines like to run at a constant speed and weren't responsive enough for a car. Comments?






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Diesel Fuel Lubrication Engine Additives Forum

Thread 32038 Filter by Poster:
Art White 1 | Bird Senter 2 | David Waite 1 | Kaz in Japan 2 | MarkS 1 | Murf 7 | Norm 1 | Nuclear_Weapon7 5 | Peters 10 | seanwr400 1 | Steve in Buffalo NY 1 | TomG 9 |




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