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Ted Kennedy
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2000-12-01          22032

I need to add a set of auxillary hydraulic connectors to the front of my Cub 7275. I've noticed that Cub sells a kit that includes an auxillary valve that mounts to the right side of the driver's seat. The photo in their brochure shows the connectors mounted on the right rear fender near the ROPS. Can this unit be mounted at the front of the machine? Where does it draw its hydraulic flow? My local dealer is new to the line and hasn't installed one yet. Mr. White, do you know?

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David Paul
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2000-12-02          22058

We are a Cub cadet dealer and sell many compacts. The remotes are normally mounted at the rear of the tractor because that is the standard mounting location for almost all tractors. The remotes could be mounted at the front if new longer hydraulic hoses were made up from the valve to the remote couplers. The hyd valve gets its fluid supply from a hyd block on the side of the tractor that is intended for this purpose or to supply a loader. Details of connections to the block are described in the owners manual. Make sure your connections are correct before cranking the tractor possible damage to the hyd pump can happen if connections are made incorrectly.

Affordable Equipment Inc.
600 Ross Ave
Easley, SC 29640

864-859-2623 ....

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Art White
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2000-12-04          22109

I can only repeat what has been said in a previous post. I think he covered it quite well. ....

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Ted Kennedy
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2000-12-04          22111

Thank you Mr. Paul and Mr. White. Mr. Paul's reply has raised a new question, and that is, will I have to give up the ability to run my FEL and backhoe if I install this valve kit? Seems like there are a limited number of hydraulic taps on the manifold, or can this problem be overcome with fittings? I want to have flow to all three valves (FEL, hoe, and optional valve). Thanks again. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-04          22113

The problem would not be how many you have but how many you can use at once. The multi valves are fine sometimes when building special application stuff we will stack them five , six deep. If they were all to be open at the same time there would be some really slow movement and I would hope not to have a motor trying to run at that time. There are other things that enter in to hydraulics but you don't need to worry about those for what you have described. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-04          22114

The problem would not be how many you have but how many you can use at once. The multi valves are fine sometimes when building special application stuff we will stack them five , six deep. If they were all to be open at the same time there would be some really slow movement and I would hope not to have a motor trying to run at that time. There are other things that enter in to hydraulics but you don't need to worry about those for what you have described. ....

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Ted Kennedy
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2000-12-04          22117

Thanks Mr. White, your advice is appreciated. I think under the circumstances I'll explore the remaining possibility of adding a pump kit to my rear 540rpm pto, then routing a set of hydraulic couplings to wherever I need them. This way if I have to apply some force to the FEL while a hydraulic motor (post hole digger) is running I won't experience the slow down you've described. Thanks again Art, good talkin' at you. Now does anyone know where I can get a 20gpm pto pump kit? ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-04          22120

Ted, I'm sure others have them, too, but Northern Tool has PTO powered hydraulic pumps listed in their 2000 Fall Master Catalog. Try the link below or call 1-800-533-5545 and ask about Items #10521-C151, 1051-C151, or 1050-C151 ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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Roger L.
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2000-12-04          22129

Twelve to twenty GPM PTO pumps are a common item in every single Ag or tractor store. Just walk in a you can buy it off the shelf. It will have NPT fittings and a standard PTO spline. Look into the ones with a "thru the pump" spline so you can still run things off of the PTO shaft. 25%more expensive.
BTW, these US PTO pumps in 12 GPM really move the liquid compared with the flow rate that I seem to get out of my compacts internal pump... ....

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TomG
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2000-12-05          22130

A qualification about slow running multiple outlets is that 'slow moving' means 'no moving' in straight open-centre system. Outlets in open centre systems are connected in series, and only the first outlet used gets pressure. This may not be true for power beyond systems, which work differently.

If you're going to a PTO pump system, which seems like a good idea, then additional plumbing for the tractor pump system may be irrelevant. However, here's a curious idea. I heard some talk about an 'electric hydraulic multiplier.' I'm not sure exactly what they are, but they seem to be a way of adding more outlets to a system without adding more control valves. I'm not sure how they work, but opinions about them weren't very positive. They were thought to be inconvenient to use and almost as expensive as additional control valves. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-05          22135

On my open center system the various devices certainly "act" as though they are connected in parallel...I can use just one spool valve or several at the same time. The limit seems to be flow volume. If I want to do several spool motions simultaniously then I have to rev up the engine because my tractor does not have a very large hydraulic pump or a pressure reservoir - although I guess I could put one on...Or even an additional pump as Ted mentions.
I know that at one time JD touted their closed center system as having the capacity to run several devices in parallel....thereby implying that other systems did not. But I think that this was more a matter of advertising than of actuality.
The problem that JD was addressing (in 1960) was that the venerable open center hydraulic system had a problem: If you gave the pump the capacity to really move a lot of fluid fast then it was also a large and constant horsepower drain. JD's closed center system allows the pump to stop pumping when you aren't using the hydraulic system....a pressure reservoir has some fluid available if you need instant hydraulic response. I believe that designing a combination variable pump and reservoir system is easier if you also make it as a closed center system. So that is what JD did. ....

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Ted Kennedy
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2000-12-06          22156

I think, based on the excellent advice from all who responded to my post, that the best course of action is to add the rear pto driven 540rpm pump. I took Bird's advice about Northern, and after looking through their master catalog, found all of the components necessary to make the system work - all except for the reducer needed to bring the 2" NPT suction port on the tank down to 3/4" for the pump intake. I've selected the 11.4 gpm Prince pump. Strangely enough, the total price for all of the components is only $250. more than the optional Cub Cadet valve kit. One of the other features of the pump is that it has dual outlets. Now I'll be able to add a circuit to the front and one to the rear. Thanks to all who've helped. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-06          22161

Roger: That's news to me. Like you, I've tried operating several spool valves at the same time, or the loader and 3ph. I get virtually no movement except from the first device on the high-pressure line. I always thought open centre valves worked by 'closing the centre,' which diverts pressure to a cylinder and opens the other side of the cylinder to the return. The effect is to turn the high-pressure line behind an operated spool valve into a low pressure return line. Valves behind the operated valve wouldn't see any oil, except that coming from the low pressure side of the operated cylinder. Similarly, I wouldn't expect parallel connections of spooling valves in an open centre system to work. I think they would guarantee that one centre would be open all the time, and high pressure wouldn't be developed.

I believe that power beyond systems are three line setups where there is both high and low pressure return lines. I think it’s supposed to guarantee that a loader gets pressure, but I don't understand much about power beyond, except that I don't have it.

Anyway, I've been wrong about some pretty basic things before. If I'm wrong about this one, I sure do want to hear about it.
....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-07          22204

TomG, I'd say that you are pretty much right on the open center description. I'll admit that I stretched the definition of parallel fluid connection :-) and was hoping that someone would challenge it.
You are right in that the open center system works by closing the center on any valve and diverting the flow to a cylinder - where resistance to that flow causes pressure to develop. While the complete flow is diverted, the system is in series as you describe. But the spool valve is not an "all or nothing" device. If you open the first spool in a series, there is enough remaining flow to also activate other valves if they are also only opened enough to use a portion of the flow. In this way the flow can be used in parallel, although it becomes a single series event if any one valve demand is very large.
I see your distinction of high and low pressure return lines...I've always thought of it as high and low flow, but see what you mean. Because the return sump is open to atmospheric pressure there is quite a bit of flow, but very little pressure in the return line. Just the pressure developed by the fluid's own frictional resistance to moving so fast. After thinking about it, I think you are referring to the return oil displaced as the cylinder moves versus the return flow that is always circulating back to the sump. In which case it sounds to me like you have it right...
The "Power Beyond" port in some valves is not mysterious at all. It is simply a means of directing the main stream of oil (yes, in series :-)) onwards to somewhere you might want to do some more work with it rather than returning it to the sump. For instance, you might want to direct it to another bank of spool valves! You can have as many as you want, although eventually the friction of all the devices is going to eat away at the flow rate and therfore the speed the devices operate. The ultimate pressure and therefore the ultimate force that each device has will remain unchanged.
I would like to recommend a reprint available from "Implement and Tractor" through the folks at IT (InterTec Publishing). There are two little booklets called "Lets get into Hydraulics" and "Hydraulic System Diagnosis". Both are well worth anyones time and stand up to re-reading as your knowledge grows. No affiliation....

....

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TomG
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2000-12-08          22225

I was wondering what differences there might be between our open centred systems. I think the explanation is that I was testing multiple outlets at idle speeds. I did notice very slight movements of the aft cylinders.

Yikes, did I get it right? If the outlet section hose of my two hose spooling-valves go someplace other than the sump, then I've got power beyond? Some mystery. Well, having a basic mind that astonishes easily does make life more entertaining I guess.

Regarding series hookups, I run my backhoe from a spooling valve I hold open with a bungee cord. I have wondered if there are any restricting orifices in the valve. I might be loosing some power there, but the hoe works OK and the oil doesn’t over-heat. I guess installing a diverter valve might be preferable.

I saved the message that identifies the hydraulics books. Thanks.
....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-08          22230

Tom, I tickled by your message because run my loader on my JD (big tractor) the same way: A bungee cord holds a spool valve open and feeds fluid to the loader's typical set of two spool valves. What we both have stumbled on is simply a homebrew version of a "power beyond" port. I too have wondered if the flow is eroding any of the rather expensive spool valve parts since I am using it as a ten dollar diverter. The answer has to be yes.....but hopefully slowly. As for flow quantity, it is only a problem in some compact tractors. And never in regular Ag tractors - even my ancient JD - which have huge amounts of flow. Also the flow in Ag tractors is pretty high even at idle....probably because you usually use it at idle. If the compact manufacturers are going to rate their hydraulics at full throttle it would be helpful if they would provide a "de-rating" scale. The efficiency loss of gear pumps at low RPM is directly proportional to how high quality that the pump is to start with.
Hope you can find those little booklets - the author did a nice job.
....

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Art White
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2000-12-08          22244

Just trying to digest what you two are talking about is interesting. I will only feed on a couple of things, No Roger you do not have a type of power beyond as you are useing a valve to get your power. Yes you are wearing out something that you would not be wearing out if you had a true power beyond. In basic open, or closed hydraulics there is some power loss when not being used. The latest on tractors is called PFC pressure flow compensated. That system drops pressure as well as volume to virtually nothing when not in use. The valves that are built today are of two types non-regenerative and regenerative with the regenerative being able to do multiple tasks at the same time on multiple spool valves. ....

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Jeff Pizzi
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2000-12-08          22251

Would someone please recommend a good book or web site on tractor hydraulics/control valves? I've tried to follow this discussion thread, but it's just not catching. I've followed this tread and the one adding a hydraulic top link, but I'm lost. And what's "Power Beyond". Thanks. PS - I've had a JD 755 with FEL, backhoe and belly mower for a year, some I'm not totally new, but this stuff is Greek to me. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-09          22257

Well, Roger, maybe it's a Colorado thing. I made a bit of homebrew during my days at CSU, so maybe some of it stuck with me. I believe Art is right though. It is homebrew, and I probably should modernize my hydraulics this spring. Looks like I'll have a few backhoe projects by summer summer. A regenerative circuit on the bucket dump would wonderful as well. It is a pain with my gear tractor to sit on a slope waiting for the bucket to dump at near idle rpm and having to keep the brakes on or roll back down the hill. From what Art says, I'm guessing that valves are available for an open centre system where the valves work conventional one way and regenerative the other. I recall somebody mentioning a JD where the joystick has both a fast and a slow bucket dump position. I imagine the fast dump position switches to a regenerative circuit. If true, it must be a pretty interesting stick and valve.

Jeff: I'll let somebody else answer. I picked up what I know by putting together pieces from comments here and there for a few years. Yes, it is sort of like working on a jigsaw puzzle where you don't know what the picture is and aren't sure you've got all the pieces. I'm sure I'm missing a few myself, and I'm going to look for the books Roger mentioned. However, I’ll take a stab at a couple of things. Power beyond is an outlet on the valve assembly used to feed devices other than those run off the spooling valves. I'm still trying to figure out how it works, physically. It can't be a simple 't' type connection. If two parallel open return-paths to the sump were present, then pressure couldn't be developed in either path. A regenerative circuit is a way of speeding things up, but at a loss of power. That's why a bucket dump might be regenerative, but probably not the curl. Regenerative circuits work by feeding pressure to both sides of a cylinder. The cylinder moves, because the pistons are not the same size (one of them has the shaft attached). Regenerative circuits are faster because all the oil necessary is already in the cylinder. Like power beyond, I'm still trying to figure how these things work, physically.
....

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Dave Wells
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2000-12-09          22265

Jeff, You might look at some of the training manuals from John Deere. "Compact Equipment Hydraulics", Cat. # FCP82102B @ $29.95 sounds like it might be useful. You can call JD Publishing @ 1-800-322-7448 and order with a credit card. Hope this helps. Dave Wells ....

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Art White
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2000-12-09          22266

My wife would side with you on this that I never answer her questions, I just don't understand her I think it might be that Mars and Venus thing I don't know. I would like to clear it up if I can. The power beyond valve as some call it or block as we call it bolts to the tractor into the hydraulic system where it has no losses from going thru a valve. Then the lines go to a valve. A regenerative valve can do more than one function at a time. That with a loader means you can raise and dump at the same time or any other two functions you would like. Many loader valves are not regenerative that are used on loaders even some being sold today on new loaders, price will make a difference. To look at your tractor chase the hydraulic lines from the valve to where it gets it's oil from. That is a power beyond valve if it switches diretions or block if it is a flow thru. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-09          22269

Jeff, I went to Intertec publishing at
http://www.intertec.com
Then to their book division, then technical, then searched on "hydraulics". It came up with these two pamplets that I mentioned in message 22204 above. Price is $3.50 each. I think they are excellent. Oddly enough, you have to go to the Intertec book division for their search to work. Trying to search under the keyword "hydraulics" from the Intertec home page yielded nothing.
Below is an attempt at including a direct link to the sales site, sometimes this works for me..... :-). ....


Link:   hydraulic technical reprints.

 
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Jeff Pizzi
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2000-12-09          22282

Thanks, guys. I'll get busy ordering an reading. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-10          22291

Art: You perhaps answer more questions than you realize. Thanks. It's just that the answers keep making more questions for me. My wife doesn't ask me many questions about things work because I end up asking her questions about her question. It's an arrangement that works for us both. Anyway, I don't suppose I'll get all this in mind until I actually take the stuff apart, or maybe the books mentioned have good diagrams. I do know the block mentioned, even if I wonder what 'change direction means.' There is a plugged port on the block, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a flow-through type. I would have guessed that a regenerative circuit allows more than one function. The way I understand them, they'd about have to be isolated from an open return line when actuated. Anyway, the hydraulics are set for the winter, and winter's a good time to read books.

I guess I have to be able to visualize the passages and moving parts in a valve before I understand how something works (got to take the stuff apart). I can't expect to get that here, unless it can be done so everybody has some fun as well. So, I'll stop and dig it out of books before everybody here concludes that it's easier to imagine me with gears moving in my head than valves. I do imagine tho, that this and similar discussions have helped de-mystify tractor hydraulics for readers other than myself
....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-10          22302

I hope that we don't confuse too many people with these various "power beyond" definitions. Whether the 'power beyond' comes from a diverter valve in the hydraulic line from the pump, or a splitter block anywhere in the hydraulic system or from the "PB" port on the loader valve it is still just hydraulic flow that can be used for any normal purpose. FWIW, most - but not all -open center loader valves on the market have a power beyond port built right into them. Although it is rarely used, it is there. All three of mine (different makes) have it, and the letters "PB" or wording "power beyond" are cast into the valve body casting right next to the threaded cap that blanks off the port. Like many others I don't use this port for anything right now on any of my tractors, but the technical literature shows it as a source of unvalved flow so I've always assumed that it is available.
Now I'm wondering? Is anyone using the PB port on their loader valve for anything? If so, what do you use it for and how does it work? ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-10          22304

Roger, I haven't done it yet, but plan some day to add hydraulic tip and tilt to my 3-point and the way it's been explained to me by someone who says he has done it, is simply to run a hydraulic hose from the Power Beyond port on the loader valve to the new valve, then the return line from the new valve back to where ever the current hose on the power beyond port goes. Of course, both the current loader valve and the new valve have to be open centered valves. ....

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Ted Kennedy
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2000-12-10          22316

Well guys, I never thought that my original post would end up in such a long thread. But it has and I'm glad that it has because some of the replies are first class. Getting back to my original post, I have found out quite a bit regarding the Cub Cadet/Mitsubishi method of hydraulic power beyond. The optional valve uses the power beyond cicuit from the main hydraulic block, thus the flow to the three point hitch is disabled. Normally I use this power beyond circuit to run my backhoe, I can tie in another valve between the hoe and the block on the power beyond line, however, the flow will truly be reduced should I try to use another implement while running a hydraulic motor for the post hole auger. This means that should I energize a cylinder, say to apply up or down pressure to the auger, regardless of whether I mount the auger to the loader or hoe dipper stick, the auger's motor will slow dramatically. Even at maximum throttle, because the Cub's 7.9 gpm primary flow won't cut it. This is why I've taken the advice of two of this boards' most experienced contributors: Art White and Bird Senter. You guys, in fact all of you, have solved a dilemma that my dealer was hard pressed to come up with an answer to. So during this winter I'll be doing what a lot of landscapers do, and that is make repairs and changes. I'll soon be ordering the PTO pump and components and when I've got it all together I'll take some photos and post them. By the way, after reading all the posts I checked my power beyond relief valve, it was starting to scream and the FEL bucket was rolling out under load. It turns out the relief valve was damaged and has to be replaced. You just never know how a posting is going to turn out, for sure you've all saved me some money and some grief. Great work! Many thanks! ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-10          22326

Bird, yes....that's how I ran my power beyond on my old JD "M". It had an open center PTO-driven pump and separate reservoir. One set of spool valves ran the lift and tilt for the bucket, and I fed the second set just as you describe for the power push-off and grapple. But that was a long time ago, and I was wondering if things were different with the latest compacts (my compacts are older) -or perhaps the newer valves no longer have power beyond ports. After all, it does cost the manufacturer something to machine and cap the power beyond port. ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-10          22327

Roger, the LA401 loader that came with my B2710 has the valve with the power beyond port and it's not capped or plugged; it's the return line to the hydraulic block on the side of the tractor. ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-10          22328

Roger, I worded that last message very poorly. The loader valve has a "tank port." The return hose runs from that to the return fitting, which is towards the rear of the tractor on the right side. About the middle of the tractor on the right side is the "hydraulic block" and the loader hydraulic block is bolted onto the tractor hydraulic block. That block has a "pump port" with the hose going to the pump port, or inlet, of the loader valve. The same block also has a "power beyond" port with the hose going from the power beyond port on the hydraulic block to the power beyond port on the valve. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-11          22335

Bird, that is an odd connection for power beyond. But here is what I think: Perhaps the tractor's hydraulic block gets its flow by interrupting the normal high pressure flow to the three point. So far we are on safe ground, because lots of blocks work that way. Then after the flow is taken from the tractor block, through the loader block, and up to the loader valve there is still a need for flow to continue to the three point. Rather than get this flow via a drilling in the loader block, they just take it from the power beyond port on the valve body and pipe it back via a hose. This would work fine, and would also explain everything except why they did it that way! maybe the loader block fits a variety of tractors and so a single drilling would not work. I'll bet if we were both standing there we could figure it out in short order! ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-11          22337

Roger, I'm afraid I actually know very little about tractor hydraulics. You certainly know a lot more than I, and you've got this one figured out. I was told to just run a hose from the power beyond port on the loader valve to the inlet on the second valve, then from the power beyond port on the second valve back to where the hose currently goes from the loader valve. I suppose that would work, except I'm not sure what you would do with the return (or outlet) port from the second valve. At any rate, I was just looking through the manual again and you were exactly right. The oil flow goes from the power beyond port on the loader valve back to the hydraulic block and on to the 3-point. I also find, in the workshop and parts manuals, that the B2710 has available an optional rear hydraulic outlet kit. So . . ., while I don't fully understand all of it yet, it appears to me that the use of that kit might be the preferable way to get oil to another valve for rear outlets for tip and tilt on the 3-point (or whatever other hydraulic uses you might have). ....

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Fred
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2000-12-15          22504

Although my thoughts and questions are not cub cadet related, it seems this thread has turned into a basic education in hydraulics in which I am very interested. I just purchased a 1996 L35 Kubota TLB with 435 hours, without refering to the owner's manual I believe this tractor has an open center hydraulic system with approxiamley 17 GPM hydraulic flow. I have set up an remote hydraulic valve on the backhoe for a thumb which I plan to install in the future. Having this extra set of remotes on the hoe I am dreaming up many hydraulicly powered implements that I could mount. The most usefull of them being a hydraulicly powered post hole digger which would mount in place of the bucket. Has anyone ever set up such a similar powered auger on either a hoe or loader? Would it be possible to build this device using a standard 3 point mounted auger, removing the PTO shaft and mounting a hydraulic motor. Would I have enough pressure and/or GPM to run the motor? Could the motor be direct drive or would it have to use chain and sproket to change RMP/ratio? I know that this is a lot of questions but in reading the above thread I realized that there is a lot of combined knowlege of the people replying to above. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2000-12-16          22527

Fred yes you can add a post hole auger to your b-hoe. We have put together 5 that I know of and we use a system built for that tractor that is matched for the hydraulic flow of the L-35. Contact me if you would like more info. ....

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mark
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 188 Virginia
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2001-03-16          25575

Ted, I installed the Aux Hydraulics on my 7232 about 2 yrs ago. They coulb probably be relocated to the front fairly easily, but I don't know if Cub offers this. All you would need to do is maybe buy some longer hydrualic lines and find a secure place to mount the outlets. (being sure not to get close to any moving or hot parts)

Mark ....

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