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John Deere Review

John Deere low viscosity HY GARD

2008-05-21 00:00:00 153853  Hettric

I ordered 5 gal low viscosity HY GARD and filter (+some parts)from my dealer. Got the call all was in and drove 45 mins to pick up. Now is when I find out they have substituted Kubota K40105 super UDT for the low vis HY GARD. They say it's the same. My question is, is it? I hate paying a premium and not getting what the manual calls for.
Thanks
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-21 00:00:00 153854  hardwood

Hettric; I'm not positive, but looking at some of your past posts I think you have a Deere tractor. Super UDT is for Kubota's and Hy-Gard Lo Vis is for Deere. I just won't use a product unless the owners manual calls for it. I doubt that the cost is much different. Personally I would have refused it. Frank. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-21 00:00:00 153857  kwschumm

I'm with Frank on this one. It might work ok but the downside risk is all yours. Using it will only give JD an excuse to not honor the warranty down the road, and if it's out of warranty you could be out some big money. It's just not worth it. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-21 00:00:00 153859  Chief

Kubota Super UDT is good stuff. I think if you look WAAAAAY back in the posts of this website you may find a few threads on Kubota Super UDT. If my memory serves me correctly (and it rarely does) ;-) I believe Chevron makes this fluid for Kubota but I need to go back and verify that. I am not sure. In the mean time here is some poop on Super UDT:

http://www.tractorsmart.com/kubota/kubota_super_udt_fluid.htm

Super UDT is very similar to Chevron THF. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-21 00:00:00 153860  candoarms

Hettric,

It's up to you to decide for yourself, but if I were you, I'd keep the Super UDT fluid.

Super UDT is the best there is. It will not harm a thing in your John Deere tractor. In fact, it may well save you some expensive repairs down the line.

Super UDT is used exclusively in my Kubota. However, I would use it in any tractor I owned, no matter which brand or color it may be. I've had my tractor running at temperatures as low as -30 degrees F., with absolutely no problems. I also use it during the summer months, when temps reach nearly 100 degrees.

I believe you got yourself a bargain. I just purchased 5 gallons of Super UDT for my Kubota, at a price of 24 dollars per gallon. It's expensive stuff, but well worth it in the end. There is nothing better on the market.

Joel ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-21 00:00:00 153861  candoarms

Kubota Super UDT.

See the link below, from 2004.

Joel

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Link:   Kubota Super UDT Review 

John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153865  hardwood

Joel; Wow, are you sure about the price of the Kubota fluid? The last Hy-Gard I bought a couple years ago was I think around 8.50 per gal. in 2 1/2 jugs. Has this stuff gone up that much and I'm just out of touchI just assumed it all was prety close in price. Frank. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153867  auerbach

With liquids that go into machines, formulas change as the result of new laws, raw materials, processing systems, machinery changes, market forces, and whatnot. But there's fakes of everything around, so you have to rely on two good names: the maker's and the seller's. I could put horse pee in a drum, and label it Kubota or Deere fluid meeting specs so-and-so, and offer it cheap to a dealer -- but a good dealer will buy only through official channels.

To further protect yourself you could send a letter or email to the head office of the maker, saying what the dealer told you, and that unless you hear to the contrary, you will take it that using this product will not void your warranty. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153868  hardwood

Cheif and Joel; I have no doubts about Super UDT being a good product, but show me a Deere owners manual recommending Super UDT or a Kubota owners manual recommending Hy-Gard Lo-Vis. Do as you please, but I jut won't stray from an owners manual. Frank. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153870  Murf

I think if you look in the manual it will use wording like 'JD RECOMMENDS the use of Hy-Gard Lo-Vis fluid' but then further back in the book it will it will say in the specifications, or under fluid & filter requirements something like 'JD Hy-Gard Lo-Vis fluid or if unavailable a quality oil that meets JD Specification number blah, blah, blah.'.

In fact I suspect you will find a half a dozen specifications or standards for it, usually a JD, Cat, Case and a few others. If memory serves it is JD "J20D" equivalent you are looking for and MANY companies make something that meets that specification. I know the Chevron "THF W" & ""Synthetic All-Weather THF" fluids are an equivalent, as is Shell "Donax TDL".

Best of luck. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153872  candoarms

Hardwood,

My wife was a bit taken aback when she stopped by the Kubota dealer in Grand Forks to pick up my Kubota Super UDT fluid.

My manual calls for about 4 gallons of the stuff when doing a complete fluid change. My 600 hour service was due, and I don't take any shortcuts when doing my routine services.

The Kubota Dealer (Acme Electric) didn't have any Super UDT in gallon jugs. He only had it in 2-1/2 gallon jugs. The total price, including sales tax, came out to 23 dollars and some change, per gallon.

My nearest Kubota dealer is over 120 miles from here. We don't go to Grand Forks very often. When we decide to make the trip, we don't waste it. We spend a pile of cash on each trip. Though the Kubota dealer's price was a bit high, it wasn't too much higher than the cheaper internet competitor. With shipping, the price would have been even higher through the internet store. ($17.60 per gallon + shipping)

Click on the link below. The price is shown on the lower right side of the page.

Joel ....
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Link:   Coleman Equipment - Kubota Super UDT 

John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153873  Chief

Here is an old thread that covers more info. on UDT.

http://tractorpoint.com/cgi-bin/tractor/fullThread.pl?catcode=KU&catname=Kubota%20Review&parentnum=55815&page=1

Super UDT is made by Ashland Oil Company (the folks who make Valvoline) for Kubota.

http://www.kubota.com/f/safety/msds/KubotaSuperUDT-1-5Gal.pdf

Very likely, Valvoline Unitrac Fluid is very similar if not the same thing as Super UDT.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/ValvolineUnitracFluid.pdf

In any case, if the fluid meets JD20 specs. as Murf mentioned it is good to go. I will be changing my fluid and filters on my John Deere 4410 and I will be using Shell Donax as the replacement fluid. It is used by a number of loggers in their log skidders and other John Deere logging equipment and I am confident it will work just fine in my 4410 as will Kubota Super UDT.

Last time I talked to my friend at the Deere dealer parts dept. He told me that the Hygard was over $64 a 5 gallon pail. That was when diesel was around $2 a gallon. I can't imagine what the price is now. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153877  candoarms

Price increase announcement:

The price for Kubota's Super UDT hydraulic fluid has gone up....again.

Coleman's website shows $17.60 per gallon, but when placing an order the price comes up at $22.30 per gallon + shipping.

5 gallons of this stuff will now cost $111.50 + shipping.

Five minutes after posting, this information will likely be outdated. hehehe.

Joel ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153878  Murf

That doesn't surprise or anger me, but I had a similar incident recently that really ticked me off!

I took the 'car' (a M-B ML SUV) to my shop to get the oil changed and some other little stuff done (trailer hitch & wiring mostly) while I was in the office doing some stuff anyways.

While I was in the office I noticed the receipt on the book-keepers desk and noticed that the price of the oil was significantly higher than it used to be. We buy a fair amount of it as several of our vehicles use it, and we always get it from the same auto parts jobber nearby where we have an account.

When I called the guy to ask about the price hike his reply was along the lines of "Ya, it all went up a LOT, price of oil is through the roof!".

I agreed, record high oil prices, but then reminded him this is a FULLY SYNTHETIC product!!!

There's no 'oil' in it!!!

He was rather stunned, hadn't thought of that, but promised to 'make some calls' and find out what was going on. He called back an hour or so later to say he was told by the manufacturers rep. that the price increase was because they 'needed to stay competitive with "conventional" motor oils'.

Road apples!!!! Price gouging at it's finest!! ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153886  candoarms

Murf,

I'm not going to attempt to defend the makers of the synthetic oils. However, the raw materials used to make synthetic oils are also going up in price by leaps and bounds. And even if the raw materials haven't gone up much, the cost for transporting those goods certainly has.

Inflation is a big concern for every American today. There are many reasons behind it, but the biggest concern is the severe devaluation of the American Dollar that's been taking place over the past 7+ years.

The U.S. Dollar is at all-time record lows. This means that the cost of every imported item is going to be much higher. Imported oil is where the devaluation of the U.S. Dollar has had the greatest impact on us. Over 70% of the increase in oil prices is due to the Dollar being worth less --- or simply worthless.

Joel ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153889  Murf

Quote:
Originally Posted by candoarms | view 153886
Over 70% of the increase in oil prices is due to the Dollar being worth less --- or simply worthless.
I agree that base ingredients and transport have gone up as a result of increased costs being passed along, but not this much.

Typically synthetic oils are created from a combination of one or more different synthetic base fluids, namely polyalphaolefin (PAO), synthetic esters, and alkylated aromatics.

The price of these materials is only up between 10-12% over the past 2 years. The price I paid was up over 50% since last fall.

I'm not quite sure where you got the following from;



The price of a barrel of oil is set on the open market and that price has been proven time and again to be set by nothing more than how much the purchasers are willing to pay for it. Right now what we are seeing is the result of investment houses and banks predicting the price will go still higher, so more people buy futures contracts, the more buyers there are, the higher the price goes, period.

When demand goes up, so does the price.

Best of luck.

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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-22 00:00:00 153898  candoarms

Murf,

I only ask that you look at the "Dollar vs. Crude Oil" charts.

Joel ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-23 00:00:00 153913  hardwood

I just checked at the local Deere dealer. Hy-Gard Lo-Vis is no longer available in 2 1/2's, now only quarts, gallons, five gallon buckets, or drums. Their one gallon jug price is 13.75. Frank. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-05-24 00:00:00 153932  Hettric

Thanks for the replies. This is for a 1990 755 so there are no warranty issues, just like to do the best thing. Looking back in the manual they recommend low viscosity HY-GARD but list alternatives including 10W SAE motor oil. I guess I am more than covered with the Super UDT. The cost was 105.00 for a 5 Gal pail. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-06-03 00:00:00 154204  paluvsjoshua

Just changed my transmission oil for my JD 4115 hydro. 229 hours. Used 14.6 liters (3.9 gal) of hy gd lo vis for a cost of $71.00 for 5 gal bucket. Prefer to use recommended fluids and not substitutes. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-06-05 00:00:00 154268  kthompson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 153889
Typically synthetic oils are created from a combination of one or more different synthetic base fluids, namely polyalphaolefin (PAO), synthetic esters, and alkylated aromatics.


Two strikes against me on this, one I know very little on the topic and two you know a lot: are you sure the oil you use is not a conventional based product that is modified enough to fit the legal definition of synthetic? My understanding Castro's fits this and probably so does some others. kt
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-06-05 00:00:00 154269  Murf

There was a lawsuit over Castrol's use of the word "synthetic" when they first came out with their Syntec line of oil.

The basis of the suit was (from what I've read) that the base oil used to make Syntec was not a 'true synthetic' (group IV or V) base stock, but a super-refined Group III (dino) oil.

Castrol won in court on the basis that the word synthetic has an accepted meaning, that is, that it was made up of something else, and that their product fit that bill.

From a purely engineering point of view, the whole point of running a synthetic oil is to get rid of the impurities that naturally occur in oil. As long as that is accomplished, it doesn't really matter how. Castrol's process also resulted in a lower cost of production, and therefore sold for less too. I suspect that was a big part of the reason for the lawsuit. Competition.

Best of luck. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-06-13 00:00:00 154574  Chief

Quote:
Originally Posted by paluvsjoshua | view 154204
Just changed my transmission oil for my JD 4115 hydro. 229 hours.Used 14.6 liters (3.9 gal) of hy gd lo vis for a cost of $71.00 for 5 gal bucket.Prefer to use recommended fluids and not substitutes.


You won't go wrong there but just be aware that Chevron makes the Hygard for John Deere. I seriously doubt they make a special formula only for them. They manufacture various oils in large batches. The packaging is what is different. Walmart and Shell play this game too. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-12-20 00:00:00 158746  Hettric

Hi, I have noticed after changing to the Kubota Super UDT that when I am using the tractor I quite frequently smell the fluid . Don't remember that before. I should say I don't use the tractor often (enough), and usually mostly as a wheel barrow cleaning up the yard with it "idling" at less than 1500 rpm. The few times I have used it harder (loader work) and at a higher rpm the smell is very prevalent. No leaks beyond minor drips from the quick release fittings. Is this normal? I am wondering if I smell it because it is synthetic and doesn't just blend in with the diesel smell?
Thanks ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-12-22 00:00:00 158797  DRankin

I think that when you extend the hydraulics on the FEL it pumps fluid out of the sump and draws in air.

When you retract the cylinders the fluid rushes back to the sump and pushes air out of the breather valve.

Some brands of fluid have a more noticable odor and they all increase in odor when they get really hot.

Your sump is breathing and it has bad breath....:) ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2008-12-24 00:00:00 158840  Hettric

DRankin, I believe you are correct, I was using the loader to push back snow yesterday and noted the smell was strongest after retracting cylinders.
Thanks for the info. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-03 00:00:00 160099  darkvader

manufactures do make jd hydraulic oil for deere only.
They make a blend for deere spec only.
I have been parts manager for a jd dealer for 19 years and seen a lot of different oil out there, and please do you use
jd low viscosity for your jd equipment . It is a better oil
and is made for your transmission and hydraulic pumps.
Using a different oil can cost you big bucks on the long run.
Not worth the chance to save a few dollars. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-03 00:00:00 160100  Chief

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkvader | view 160099
manufactures do make jd hydraulic oil for deere only.They make a blend for deere spec only. I have been parts manager for a jd dealer for 19 years and seen a lot of different oil out there, and please do you usejd low viscosity for your jd equipment . It is a better oil and is made for your transmission and hydraulic pumps. Using a different oil can cost you big bucks on the long run. Not worth the chance to save a few dollars.


I agree with your statement up to a point but John Deere has just gotten plum crazy out of control with high prices. John Deere Low Viscosity Hygard is made for John Deere by Chevron Oil Company. I seriously doubt Chevron makes a special batch just for John Deere.

http://eservice.msds.com/servlet/SSDocumentDisplay?document_version_nri=2217394&doc_is_archived_for_site=0

Chevron 1000 THF meets and exceeds John Deere requirements

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS7675968.PDF ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-04 00:00:00 160109  DRankin

I have checked several Deere owners manuals and every one of them had a temperature application chart that indicates Low-Vis is not suitable for temperatures over 80 degrees.

Regular Hy-Gard is recommended for temps from 0 degrees to about +125.
I have a real problem using an oil that runs out of poop at +80 Degrees.

Plus, and this is a big plus, of Low-Vis the hydraulics drift down at an incredible rate. You can actually watch it move.

It still drifts down on regular Hy-Gard but at a much more manageable rate. ....
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Picture Link



John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-04 00:00:00 160112  kthompson

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRankin | view 158797
I think that when you extend the hydraulics on the FEL it pumps fluid out of the sump and draws in air. When you retract the cylinders the fluid rushes back to the sump and pushes air out of the breather valve. Some brands of fluid have a more noticable odor and they all increase in odor when they get really hot.Your sump is breathing and it has bad breath....:)



I have noticed this from time to time but had not put my finger on it as you pointed out. Makes sense. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-04 00:00:00 160114  Murf

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRankin | view 160109
I have a real problem using an oil that runs out of poop at +80 Degrees.


Mark, what you need to do though is check the spec's they publish for the two different oils.

I don't know Jack about the Deere oils, but happen to have the numbers for the Kubota oil we run, it looks like this;

Properties listed for Kubota UDT are:
Viscosity @100C, cSt 9.5
Viscosity @ 40C, cSt 60.0
Pour Point, C max -35


Properties listed for Kubota Super UDT are:
Viscosity @ 100C, cSt 9.00
Viscosity @ 40C, cSt 45
Pour Point, C max -46

So if you look closely a couple of things jump out at you, namely, at 100 C. (~212 F.) the SUDT has a viscosity of 9, but at the same temperature the regular UDT has a viscosity of 9.5, almost the same. However, the big difference is in the bottom end, 45 versus 60, or 1/3rd higher, and that's at 'only' 40 C. (~104 F.), never mind a snowy morning.

That means at ambient temps of around freezing, one is tar, the other still oil. That's a huge difference in both helping starting and initial lubrication rates.

Bear in mind, the above temperatures they are referring to is oil temperature, not air temperature.

Best of luck. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-04 00:00:00 160117  DRankin

Well, here is what Deere sez about their own oil:

"John Deere Hy-Gard transmission and hydraulic oil is specially formulated to protect heavily-loaded
gears, wet brakes, wet clutches, and hydraulic systems. Low-Viscosity Hy-Gard is available for coldweather
applications, and may be used as a direct replacement for hydrostatic oil. Bio Hy-Gard is
available for applications requiring a biodegradable oil."

They think Low-Vis is for COLD WEATHER applications. All the dealers hawk it as a universal oil. ....
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Link:   Click Here 

John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-04 00:00:00 160118  DRankin

Murf: Here is another link. Page 34 has the specs you referred to. Please have a look and tell me what you think. ....
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Link:   Click Here 

John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-05 00:00:00 160121  hardwood

Guess it all boils down to what ever you are comfortable with using. The first Deere compact I had a 4300, used regular Hy-Gard and I do remember the howls and whines of the hyd. pump on cold days pushing snow. My current 4310 has the Lo-Vis and you don't hear all the howls and whines, maybe the pumps are different, but I don't think so, it is just easier for the pump to push the fluid around. I'd rather err on the side of using the Lo-Vis year around than the regular Hy-Gard in cold weather. I really doubt that the difference of say 86 to 96 or whatever temp of outside air really makes much difference, the fluid temp is going to be about the same anyhow. Frank. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-05 00:00:00 160122  Murf

Mark, according to the JD literature, the numbers for the Hy-Gard is remarkably similar to the numbers for the Kubota fluid I listed above, not surprising considering that same page in the document says that the Hy-Gard meets UDT & SUDT spec. also.


Properties listed for Hy-Gard are:
Viscosity @100C, cSt 9.4
Viscosity @ 40C, cSt 59
Pour Point, C max -40


Properties listed for Low-Vis Hy-Gard are:
Viscosity @ 100C, cSt 7.2
Viscosity @ 40C, cSt 33
Pour Point, C max -51

So again, as with the Kubota fluid the numbers are almost the same at 100 C. (~212 F.) or running temperature, 9.4 vs 7.2 but when the temperature drops things change dramatically. At just 40 C. (~104 F.) the difference is already huge, 33 vs 59 or nearly twice the viscosity.

As I mentioned earlier, at temperatures of only around the freezing point the regular Hy-Gard must be nearly like wax.

Frank brought up a good point, one I didn't explicitly mention but was getting at, no matter whether the air temperature is 50 or 100 if your machine is working the hydraulic fluid temperatures are not going to be significantly different.

As far as the leak-down, I can see that being different with the two different oils, but only if the oil in that area is a lot cooler than the rest of the system.

As Frank mentioned, I feel a bunch better knowing I am only erring a little on the really hot days (when I must confess I don't work all that hard, LOL), than all the time on the cold days.

Best of luck. ....
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John Deere low viscosity HY GARD
2009-02-05 00:00:00 160131  DRankin

The drift down is my biggest issue. It really bugs me when I have to stop using the backhoe every 2 minutes to pump up the outriggers.

Here is another Deere quote: "Hy-Gard oil can be used in most applications calling for 10W-30 or 5W-30 engine oil for transmission and hydraulic oils. NOTE: Hy-Gard should
be used in all applications calling for JDM J20C."

It also claims a pour point of -40 degrees.

My transmission gets a LOT hotter in the summer. If I work the tractor real hard in the winter I can touch the T n'T manifold and it is very warm.

If I touch that puppy after some serious work in 100+ degree weather, it will raise blisters!!

My owners manual sez to use the backhoe at PTO speed in hot, hot weather or risk overheating the HST.

When I took all this info together, I made the decision to stick with the thicker stuff. But I also err on the side of caution and warm it up real good in truly cold weather.

If I was back in Alaska, I would be using Low-Vis without question.






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