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1710D hydraulic problem

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fox9988
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2003-01-28          48338

After adjusting the hand throttle,I have no hydraulics on the lift or the loader.I un hooked one quick coupler from the pump to the loader controls,for acsess,then reconected.The valve under the seat is opened,and hydo fluid level is fine.There seems to be no pressure from the main line coming from the pump.With the troctor running and the quick conector valve open,no fluid comes out,other than a fast drip.Thank you for any advice.

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marklugo
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2003-01-28          48344

First of all if you diconnected the quick coupler to the loader while it was running, then you have destroyed your pump. Your pump has either blown a seal, sheared a key or broken the shaft, all which are probable. Notice any extra oil in the crankcase? That would be the seal and cheapest repair. Other repairs could be more severe.
What happens is that the after market loaders, (I'm guessing you may have a Koyker or Kelly), are plumbed directly off the pump. If the tractor was left running and the quick coupler was disconnected even for a half a second, the pump pressure would "dead head" and the pressure would have to be relieved by puking the pump.

If this problem occured before you disconnected the loader, you may still have the same problem if the relief valve stuck in the loader valve and the cylinders were overloaded or fully extended. ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-28          48345

After comptemplating your action, I am sure you have finished the pump. The quick connecter is not supposed to allow oil to escape when disconnected. See that little ball inside. It holds the pressure back. A little seepage is normal, especially when a pump dead heads at 2500 psi.

Get your friendly dealer to take a look. From what you are describing, lack of knowledge or understanding may have caused the problem. I know it may not be an answer you are looking for, but after fixing a few tractors like this, I hope I am wrong.
....

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TomG
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2003-01-29          48355

What MarkL says is true, but I'll try for an explanation with less extreme consequences. It all depends on the particular hydraulic hookup, which I don't know on a Yanmar.

On my Ford 1710, the loader is fed from a hydraulic manifold block. The block contains a diverter valve and the system relief valve. With the diver in the auxiliary system position, oil goes from the block to the loader valve, back to the block and on the 3ph. If the loader valve is disconnected the relief valve still provides protection. Of course, prolonged operation would overheat the oil and damage the pump.

My loader valve has threaded fittings for the inlet and return lines and quick-connects for the cylinder hoses. I'm not sure where the quick-connects mentioned are. I think it would be unusual to have them on inlet or return lines except for something like a power-beyond kit. The problem you describe would happen only if the valve inlet or return hoses aren't connected or if a loader valve isn't centered.

What I hope you find is that the tractor has quick-connects on inlet or outlet lines, it does have relief valve protection when the loader valve is disconnected and that a quick-connect just isn't seated properly. That can easily happen especially for people who haven't used them much, and they can be hard to reconnect if there's pressure in a line. I'd also jiggle the loader controls to make sure they are centered.
....

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marklugo
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2003-01-29          48361

Tom,
That would be the case for your 1710. However, the Yanmar gray market system is a little more primitive and all of the FEL's that I have seen on these tractors plumb the same way. ....

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fox9988
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2003-01-29          48379

The problem seems obvious after reading your replies.I disconnected the main pressure line with the tractor running.Does anyone know were to get the parts (key hopefully,seal,or pump)to fix it. ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-29          48381

This is the reason that I have felt that the people trying to make an extra buck and sell these gray market tractors were doing a big disservice to their customers. The parts are not generally available. First of all, your machine is close to 20 -25 years old. The Japanese obsolete even their US tractor parts inventories beginning around 8 years. (this keeps ya-a-buyin' new un's) Second there isn't an exact cross over to Deere. Third, what parts there are, they are sky high. Fourth, many dealers offer no service or warranty. Fifth, etc. etc. etc....

Let's see I still think I can Help. Lazenby's Equipment in Starke FL is the best I know for this. They sell Yanmar Gray tractors directly from Japan. In fact, he goes over and hand selects the tractors himself. He also warranties and services the product he sells. He will also tell you the truth if you want to hear it. He has a web site. I don't have it right here but do a search for lAZENBY'S EQUIPMENT. ....

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lsheaffer
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2003-01-29          48386

First of all . You don't have a YM1710 . There is no such beast. I'm guessing you have a YM1720 or YM1700. You probably sheared a key. I can supply the key. I also have a used pump for a YM1700.
Secondly I disagree with Marklugo. Yanmar does not obsolete their US parts inventories at 8 years. I can get most any part for a US model Yanmar & they haven't sold a tractor in the US for 10 years.. I can get most parts for Bolens/Iseki tractors. Satoh /Mitsubishi tractors doesn't have quite as good a coverage, but pretty good for 20 year old tractors.But then I can't get everything I want for 100hp JD tractor either. You don't need a cross to Deere . You just need someone that can supply Yanmar parts. Yanmar has the cheapest parts of any compact tractor, Especialy when it comes to bearings & seals. The other brands are higher.

I can't argue with the statement"many dealers offer no service or warranty. ". I don't call those people dealers, they are tractor sellers. They are good for my parts business .

I still believe the grey tractors are a good value. One of the reasons they are so much cheaper is that getting parts is not as convienent as going to your local equipment dealer. I also beleive it is very important to buy a high quality tractor to start with. ....

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TomG
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2003-01-30          48393

MarkL & Leonard: I did think that you know about Yanmar hookups. I suppose there would be the possibility of an after-market installation where my explanation would hold. At least the possibility of my 'no repair needed' explanation should be checked off.

It's really too bad if the pump was deadheaded. I do think that a design where there is the possibility of a disconnecting a quick-connect that would deadhead the pump is close to incredible. After all, standard quick-connects do fail or simply pull apart if a hose snags. I pulled one apart myself last summer.

A bunch of us owners do have the sky-high factory parts problem. My starter has taken to not engaging on the first try every time. I inquired about parts from my NH dealer. In Canadian dollars, it's $850 for a new starter and in pieces it doesn't take long to buy several complete starters--$185 for a solenoid, $450 for the gear drive, $350 for the field etc. Oh, and in Ontario we add 15% tax on everything.

I have to check the battery condition, charging system and wiring when it gets warmer, but a 15-year old solenoid seems a good possibility. AT 650 hours I wouldn't expect much else on a starter to fail. At any rate I might be looking for after-market sources, used parts or even Shibaura to Ford crosses. There are a number of companies that sprang up to mostly to supply parts for pre-'62 Fords after NH dropped parts support for these tractors, and the after-market prices seem pretty good. I haven't seen after-market sources for mid-80's compacts yet.
....

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larry
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2003-01-30          48396

Hi Tom
I would get the starter "bench tested"
I thought mine was going (also $900 Can.)& it turned out that it (Cub) needed a relay to put more "juice" to the starter.About a $30 fix.Now it works A-1
Larry ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-30          48403

Yes, I believe that there is no 1710d or it is at least very rare. Could it be a 1510d,1610d, or 1810 d? Learnard, the problem exists with Yanamr. I have seen the letter to back this up. Yanmar is not allowing parts orders anymore on these gray tractors. Serial numbers have to be entered to have parts provided. Now there are some particular ways around this, but would you do business this way? The only legitimate way would be to purchase from overseas sources. I think that quality is not being questioned. You agreed that these dealers are doing business as tractor sellers not dealers. More parts business for you, yes, but it tarnishes the industry as a whole and is tantamount to the gypsy and Irish traveler practices of years ago. We all (at least on this board) know that there are these Vietnamnese guys out their selling polished junk. In a market where the consumer is so looks oriented, this poses ethical problems in selling a product with so much confusion. Secondly, it goes back to the fact that these tractors are not designed for the US market and are not "Saftey" conscious. There is not the amount of saftey start switches, full instrumentation, readable owners manuals, fan and belt gaurds or OSHA approved roll over structures. This is not to mention official factory support for any saftey problems. Nor does it address that these tractors are expempt from emissions standards and are polluting our way of life. Most all of the dealers have the customers sign roll bar waivers. This is to protect them against law suits. It is mostly a way for the dealers to sleep easy at night. It won't hold water in a serious matter. Check out the lawsuits that have been settled if you don't believe me. Also, it is creating a long term problem. It is putting legitimate, new and used tractors dealers out of business. These are the people with real experience and knowledge that are capable of fixing these tractors. It has contributed to the demise and difficulties of many hard working, intelligent dealers because the gas station down the street was cutting the legs out of their sales. And it must be understood that these gas station dealers and car lot dealers and front yard dealers are not capable of handling service problems. Finally, they are telling people (to make sales) that these tractors are the same models as JD Massey or NH. While this is true in a small percentage of the cases, dealers are having frivilous law suits brought against them because they can't and won't supply the parts because "Yanmar is a John Deere and you should sell me the parts." Even some of these guys are painting Yanmars green and yellow to suggest that.

There are a few legitimate dealers who have gotten their start this way, but they quickly move on to new tractor lines. They also break their necks to help turn around any past image problems they might have suffered while selling these tractors. I don't want to say that I wouldn't but a gray market tractor. But I am informed and educated about what it is and what I should expect. The problem lies with the fact that most gray market tractor buyers are uneducated about tractors and will take the word of the gas station salesman and buy it because it only has 200 hours on it and it is a 95 year model all of which we know is not probably true. In fact these hour meters only record hours in the 100's it could be 3200 hours and the last time a YM 1500 or YM2000 model rolled off the assemby line was around 1979. It could have been 1969.
I'm all for people making money, but I hate it when an industry has been built off so much deception and depends on the customer's lack of knowledge to perpetuate itself. ....

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lsheaffer
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2003-01-30          48446

I believe you have misinterpreted where I'm coming from.I agree with "I think that quality is not being questioned". I assume you mean by the purchaser. Purchasers need to be more informed. I started in this business to sell quality tractors . I made sure I had a parts source before I got into. I've farmed all my life & I know how important parts & service are. I wasn't going to sell tractors without being able to provide these things. I never intended to be big in supplying parts . I buy quality tractors & have sold very few parts to my tractor customers. I can count on both hands how many front wheel drive seals that my customers have needed. I have never supported the idea of tractor sellers , so I can sell parts. I believe it is bad for the industry when people are told they can get parts by just going to a Deere, Agco, or Ford dealer. I am astound that people will sell a tractor & not tell the purchaser that they have to bleed it when it runs out of fuel. I think it is a crime when people are told the tractors are newer than they really are or even go as far as too label them as a different brands. I've encouraged several people to turn these people in to the BBB & their state's Attorney General. But you know what this doesn't just happen with grey market tractors . It happens with US model tractors ,too. I've had several people looking for parts for US models that were repainted & labeled as a different brand. This kind of stuff happens in other industries, too & that doesn't make it right. I think it is unfair to judge the whole industry by a few bad eggs. There are a lot of dealers out there that will bend over backwards to help their customers with parts & service. There is not much I can do about the bad eggs , other than help their customers when they need help.
Secondly. the US tractors of the same era were not required to have saftey start switches, full instrumentation, fan and belt gaurds or OSHA approved roll over structures. Nor were the US tractors required to meet emissions standards at the time they were sold. I don't think it is putting legitimate, new and used tractors dealers out of business. Yanmar , Satoh, Mitsubishi, & Hinomoto sold tractors in the US. I don't hear any one complaining that the majors forced Yanmar , Satoh, Mitsubishi, & Hinomoto dealers out of business.
The 2 cylinder Yanmars do have 3 digit hour meters. Most 3 cylinders have 4 digit meters. The Japanese do not put a lot of hours on a tractor by US standards. 500-1000 hours is very common. 2000 hours is rare. The last YM1500 & YM2000 were built in 1979.
It sounds like most of your experience has been with a bad sampling of "dealers". The industry has been not been built on deception nor does itdepend on the customer's lack of knowledge to perpetuate itself. I assure you we are all not crooks & con men as you would like people to believe. There are many honest , full service dealers in business. ....

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lsheaffer
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2003-01-30          48448

Tom.In response to your post. None of the Japanese tractors that I have come across have a relief valve in the hydraulic block that is provided for remote hydraulics. This includes all US Yanmars. Snap couplers rarely come apart on loader in line hose hookups. Generally the prblem is in the owner not realizing how the system works & not hooking the hoses together. They do come apart when they are a rigid mount on the back of the tractor.They are made to come apart there so if the implement comes unhooked the hoses won't be torn & blow oil all over.
Not all loaders require snap couplers on the supply/return line to quick detach. Some brands leave the loader valve with the tractor when detaching & put the couplers in the loader control lines. ....

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TomG
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2003-01-31          48451

Good to have this discussion. It might save some gray owners from this problem. I never think of taking off my loader so it never occurred to me why there'd be quick-connectors on the inlet and return hoses.

I can't think of a design reasons why a relief valve couldn't be placed ahead of a diverter valve but maybe there are. In absence of good reasons, the design does seem to expose owners to this problem. I have failed to seat the connectors on my cylinder hoses a time or two.

Maybe the thinking behind such designs is that a disconnected hose should be a pretty rare event, and if the pump shaft key is the likely part failure then the results may not be too bad. The key would be like a shear pin.
....

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fox9988
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2003-01-31          48486

My mistake, it is a 1720D.I took the pump off, and the woodruf key was broke. The broken key was 3/32in, which was too thin. I bought an 1/8in key, and filed it down to app. 7/64in. It fit great after the filing. Everything is working fine now. I primed the pump before I installed it, was this necessary?My tractor is showing 446hrs on a four digit meter. Thanks for everyones help. ....

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fox9988
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2003-01-31          48488

What do the last two nmbers in the model signify? ....

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lsheaffer
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2003-02-01          48497

It has a powershift transmission & it was made in 1984/5. ....

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TomG
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2003-02-01          48500

That's a pretty good result. I can't help but wonder why the old key was too thin--it may be a metric to inches thing. I might be good to keep in mind that the old loose key could be the reason why the key instead of the pump broke so I'd keep in mind that there's a possibility the new key wouldn't break as easily. It could have been designed to be loose. A trick for using a harder shear pin than the original in a pinch is to leave the nut loose. On the other hand, I have hand fitted keys to worn keyways when parts for British motorcycles weren't available. Some of the shapes ended up very unusual.

Larry: Thanks for the starter note. I've been thinking about it. Awhile back I figured out that my 1710 doesn't have a starter relay and the whole starter and glow-plug currents go through the starter switch. If the switch is resistive, installing a relay might keep a weak solenoid going awhile longer. Reducing current flow through the starter switch also might make the switch last longer, and Lord knows how much a switch costs. There are safety relays that could be resistive as well. Bunch of things to check, and it's supposed to be warmer for a few days. Maybe I'll be motivated.
....

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fox9988
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2003-02-02          48535

The broken key meassured .112in with calipers.That's what the 1/8in. key meassured. One of the four nuts that hold the hydro pump on was replaced with a metric nut that had the wrong pitch treads or a standard nut. My guess is someone replced the key with the only one they could find that would fit in the key way, an 1/8in.,in the past. ....

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TomG
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2003-02-02          48538

That sounds like a pretty good guess. I hope the wrong nut was holding the pump in good alignment. That may be a reason why the key broke in the first place, but I know I'm just extending this thread with obscure possibilities. It sounds like the tractor is in pretty good hands now.

Dang those threads. Some of late year British bikes I mentioned came from the factory with hardware in American Inches, British Whitworth and some metric standard or another--all on the same bike. Made working on them pretty interesting. Dang aluminum cases and heavy-handed amateur mechanics. Some bikes you'd spend half your time trying to figure where a bolt came from and then find a helicoil. Dang hardware manufacturers who now seem to be putting metric heads on bolts with US NS threads. Well, this was only a contrived rant but now I'm still all danged out for the day.
....

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gbirky
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2003-02-03          48577

As for the discussion of the gray market tractors - I think that is boils down to this: Yanmar parts are just as available as JD parts for tractors of a comparable age - and whats more, they are by and large less expensive as well. As for putting US tractor dealers out of business - that won't happen as long as their are rich boys out there willing to shell out the bucks for a JD, Kubota, or NH. I needed a tractor, and couldn't justify $15-20k. Thats just down right overpriced. I got a great 16hp diesel 4x4 tractor with a loader for $4500 - and with some ingenuity mounted a $500 MMM. Now I whole-heartedly support the US economy and drive only US cars. But that is a bit more of a competive market.

So... If you know nothing about tractors - then play it safe and spend the $$$ to buy something new from a local reputable dealer of your color choice. On the other hand, those with the inclination to do some of it yourself - find a reputable gray dealer and save some money. ....

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