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Pressure for Oxy Acl torches

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1st JD
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2003-02-20          49642

I just got a new set of torches from my loving wife as a gift. Always had a welder but really needed a set of cutting torches (well, kinda needed them). I put them together but I'm not sure of the pressures to run. The very small booklet that came with it is not very clear. Any help would be apprec. Thanks

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DK35vince
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2003-02-20          49645

I'm going from memory, I have my Acl. set at around 12 or 14 PSI.
And the Oxy. around 35 or 40 PSI. ....

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Peters
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2003-02-20          49649

I have a set and 2 sets of tanks, but have not used much lately. I guess it would depend on the size of the tip but 10 and 30 is what I normally ran for heating. Slightly higher pressures for the cutting tip. ....

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bullworker
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2003-02-20          49650

the regulator presures are based on the tip size ,any welding supply will have a pocket chart that will tell you the proper settings for each tip. chances are you have a small tip for 1/4- 3/8 material and the proper settings, off the top of my head because i don't have my chart in my pocket should be for the acetylene 4 to 6 lbs and the oxegen 24to 26 lbs. there should be a red danger zone on your acetylene reg above 15lbs, thats because acetlene gets unstable above that presure. remember, never get oil anywhere near your torches it can be very dagerous. all welding supply stores have a big oxy-act poster showing dos and don'ts and some very vivid pictures of what can happen. ....

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1st JD
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2003-02-20          49666

Thanks for the info. The tip is actually a bit larger, 5/8- so I will increase to maybe 13 & 30. I'll practice some tomorrow, not around oil though. Just curious but what exactly happens around oil??? Doesn't sound pretty whatever it is. ....

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bullworker
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2003-02-20          49667

the oxegen can create a very voltile atmosphere, mix that with oil and very high presure and you have created a very simple deisel engine with only one stroke , the power stroke, BANG ....

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TomG
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2003-02-21          49686

I guess that your welders have been arcs and maybe you're pretty new to gas welding. Gas welding is all I've done and that was quite awhile ago. I think the differences in pressures noted here are the differences between welding and cutting tips. I'm not certain the question is clear whether the pressures are for welding or cutting.

The table that came with the kit should give OX and Acty regulator output pressures by tip number for welding tips and a separate table gave pressures for cutting tips. I learned my gas welding entirely from a basic book I bought at a welding supply It was a lot better than what came with the set, and the suggestion to buy a book from a welding supply shop is very good.

I can't recall the capacity of my old small set. I don't think cutting 5/8th material would be a problem at all, but welding might start pushing the capacity of a very small set. A big tip can be put on most any handle but whether the regulator has the flow to get the material hot enough and maintain sufficient tip pressure for a good weld is another question.
....

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Captain B
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2003-02-23          49820

As the other replies have indicated, the pressure settings vary depending on tip size and whether you are welding, heating with a "Rosebud" or cutting. For welding the settings vary from 3 psi oxy/3 psi acty for thin material up to 5/5 for larger tips for welding half-inch material. If you are a relative newbee (as I am) or been away from welding for a while, I recommend one of two books highly. Richard Finch, Welder's Handbook or Jay Storer, The Haynes Welding Manual. Buy the Finch book if you only want to spring for one-he has a number of handy charts with pressure settings, etc. Both are readily available on the net and cheap. Your library should have them also. ....

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Peters
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2003-02-23          49821

Pure oxygen can accelerate almost any materials combustion. Basicly non combustable material become combustable Al included, a combustable material become flamable, a flamable material become explosive. You need to be careful in enclosed area particularly.
Thing will burn in a pure oxygen atmosphere including fabric, wiring and astronauts. I am sure Gus does not wish that he gave his life in vain. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-02-27          50182

Low equal pressures on AC and O2 are needed for welding. A pressure of around 5psi is good for most smaller tips. The actual final "regulation" is done with the needle valves on the torch.

The reason for this is safety. With equal pressures for O2 and AC, you will not have one gas mix with the other in a rubber hose if you plug a tip. If one gas pressure is higher than the other, then a plugged tip can cause an explosive mixture of O2/AC to form when the higher pressure gas flows into the lower pressure hose. This can happen if you let your tanks run to zero pressure, also.

You should never run Acetylene at high pressures. (It is unstable.) 15 psi should be about the max. Acetylene is disolved in fluid in the cylinder and "bubbles" out of solution like the fizz in a soda when you use it.

Now it is a little different with cutting. You need higher O2 pressures to make the cutting jet and to burn out the steel in the cut area. Since a cutting tip has several holes it would be difficult to completely plug it up and cause an explosive mixture in the hose, but it does happen. Flashback arrestors are for this very purpose. Even with a cutting tip, you are adjusting the heating flame mixture with the needle valves, not the regulator.

Rosebud tips use higher equal pressures of O2 and AC to meet the flow requirements through the hose to the large tip. By the time the gasses get to the tip, they will be lower in pressure from the regulator setting. One other note about acetylene is that the rate that it can be "bubbled" out of the cylinder is related to cylinder size. You should NEVER run a rosebud on a small B or MC type cylinder. It cannot produce enough gas volume and can cause the liquid in the cylinder to "foam" out.

I have never had the liquid come out of my acetylene cylinders, but I have had a flashbacks happen. One of those was severe and damaged my torch. If your flame goes out and the torch whistles and is hot on the gas tubes going to the tip. Shut off the O2 immediately. Then shut off the AC. The AC is flammable, but the O2 can cause metal, rubber, and skin to burn violently. ....

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Captain B
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2003-02-27          50184

AC5Z0--You sound like you really know what you are talking about. (By the way, forgive me for saying this, but I hope we don't have one of those R2D2 characters on this thread.) But now you have me uptight. I was just about to start using the Rosebud I got with the torch set that came with my B actylene tank. Can't believe no one told me this is a no no. Are you absolutely sure? ....

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TomG
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2003-02-28          50232

AC is saying what I now remember more of--and thanks.

I never had a rosebud tip myself, but I imagine that they come in different sizes like welding and cutting tips. There's a good chance that the one you have is appropriate for the regulators and tanks, but it does bear checking.

Another area where my memory could use refreshing is whether there are standards that keep people from mismatching parts. For example, larger tips may take a larger handle than is supplied in a small set. I do remember that my small regulators would only go on small bottles. Possibly the regulators themselves limit flow and most any regulator that fits on a bottle would prevent excessive flows.

One thing I do recall is that I eventually learned the difference between the big pricey pro regulators for sale in the welding supply shops and the little ones that came in my set (one pro regulator cost more than my entire set excluding tanks). Unless things have changed, pro regulators are two stage designs while the small set regulators are single-stage. What that means is that the pressures on the small sets wonder around a bit. In using them for welding, you have to keep a watch on the flame to ensure it stays neutral and adjust it more often. A flame that goes to oxidizing makes a crappy weld.
....

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marklugo
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2003-02-28          50236

Guys,
My welding instructor in College said to use a 4:1 mixture for cutting. He suggested 10psi on the Acetylene and an 40 psi setting on the oxy. For gas welding and for brazing as well a neutral flame (1:1 mixture)is recommended. He said to match the tip size with the psi that you use unless you use a 00 or 0 size and then do not use less that a 3psi:3psi mixture. The text book concurs but also an old military welding manual I found from the 40's says the same thing. Do not exceed the 15 psi on the acetylene. It becomes more unstable than nitrogycerin in a hollywood western.

Also, a bad habit and a lethal one that a lot of people do not know(other than the no oil issue) is DO NOT lay an acytylene cylinder on its side to use. A lot of people lay them in the back of their P/U's and carry them to the field and use them laying down. The problem is that the acytelene in the cylinder is dissolved (to improve stability) in acetone and is stored in a honeycomb type strucure inside the cylinder. Sort of like a 2 liter bottle of soda that stores CO2 in the liquid without the honeycomb. If a acetylene cylinder is used on its side, the acetone runs out, generating free acetylene inside of the cylinder under increasing pressure. Happy cutting. ....

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R_squared
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2003-02-28          50250

Captain B and bullworker referred to the purchase of books or a poster. Your public library is an economical alternative. Unless you take a class or have an experienced mentor to explain the many welding parameters, several books with colored pictures are invaluable. They will show you flame length, neutral flames, and the effects of gas pressure, travel speed, and slag formations for both cutting and welding. Try to duplicate the pictured conditions on scrap metal - you can write the tip size, acetylene and oxygen gauge settings on a piece of masking tape and stick it on the scrap piece for future reference. I have found that there is a fair amount of overlap, in what can be cut, between the various tip sizes. Cutting 1/8 to 1/2 inch plate is pretty easy, but sheet metal is tricky. Even with a 000 tip the kerf can be wide and the sheet metal can warp. The equipment settings are the first to get familiar with; the second is holding and advancing the torch. Practice on some spare good steel before you make the final cuts for your project. Homemade elevated straight edges to cut plate, angle and square tube will help you to maintain a straight edge. They can be held to the stock with c-clamps and they allow you to better concentrate on tip position and travel speed. Good Luck.

ROB ....

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TomG
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2003-03-01          50292

Libraries! Good idea and I wonder why I don't think of such things. After all I am a member of the Trustee Board for our township Public Library. Country libraries may not have many technical books--ours sure doesn't. We have discussed the idea of building up a collection of technical books that cover the 'how to's' for what needs doing in the country. If we'd hear more from the mechanics and less from the crafters we might have more technical books. Of course we'd be competing with the 'ask your neighbour approach, which is also pretty good. Local library boards usually are interested in hearing what people want to use.

Here are a couple ideas for learning gas welding. Books with pictures are good because you have to know what things are supposed to look like. A bad weld is dangerous for anything structural and they just sort of pop out at you when you know how they look. The first thing I did after I got my set is built my own hand truck for my tanks with a build-in toolbox. I constructed the whole thing from strap, angle and sheet. It probably weighed three times as much as it should have but it did give me a lot of practice. I then drove all my friends and family nuts one year by giving everybody metal sculpture for Christmas. As art, I guess they were clumsy executions but my welding did get a lot better. Most of the stuff ended up as doorstops and that was among my more generous friends.
....

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AC5ZO
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2003-03-01          50321

There are a lot of questions since my last reading of this thread. First of all AC5ZO is my ham radio call sign and it works well for email and other things.

There are no safeties on gas welding. You can pretty much mix and match any component. The hose connections are all identical, as far as I know. That means that you might buy a torch kit that includes a rosebud, but the AC tack may not be able to support it with adequate gas flow. The two problems are generally with the standard sets and the MC and B acetylene tanks. Larger acetylene tanks will handle most common tips including the rosebud.

If you want to use your rosebud, you may not need to use acetylene to heat a large area. Propane or MAAP gas is available and will work with Oxygen to produce a good heat over a wide area. Even Propane/O2 is much hotter than a propane torch. If I need to heat over a wide area, then I use some flex arms to hold propane torches near the work. Then I use my AC/O2 torch for welding. This is useful where pre or post heating is called for. You can get a pretty large area red hot and maintain it at that heat using multiple torches.

I suspect that the pro regulators that you refer to are dual stage regulators. Single stage regulators (the most common by far) do not hold their pressure "exactly" as the pressure in the gas bottle goes down. For most of us that is not a problem. If you are not a professional, your gas bottles may last you months, since your usage is not high. So, it is not a problem to occassionally readjust the pressure to match a specific reading. In my case, I dial my regulators down to zero and bleed the hoses when I put away my torch. So, I readjust pressures everytime I use the torch. (The reasons to bleed the hoses and dial the regulators down can be debated. This is an extra safety precaution that I learned and I believe it to be good practice.) Dual stage regulators have a first regulator that reduce the cylinder pressure to an intermediate value of say 60 psi and then a final regulator that is adjustable. With two regulating stages they hold a setting better, but are most useful when you may go through a bottle of gas in a day or less.

I agree with Mark in his comments. I believe that the matrix holding the acetone in an acetylene tank is diatomaceous earth. This is a very porous natural soil. There may be a synthetic alternative in use today.

With respect to flames, there are many types used for different things. The neutral flame is the common one used for welding. You achieve this by adjusting the O2 till the feathery white inside JUST gets to a sharp pointed cone. If you go too far, you will have an oxidizing flame. The oxidizing flame will have a little more transparent inner cone in the flame and will tend to cause more metal scale while welding. A reducing flame is what you have when you first light the torch. You start with only acetylene and then slowly add O2. As you add more O2 the flame will turn white and be long. This white "feather" will decrease in length eventually forming the sharp cone of the neutral flame. Before getting to the neutral flame, you have a reducing flame that is still good for heating and will not cause as much scale on sensitive metals. A reducing flame might deposit some carbon on your work when using it.

If you cut a lot of sheet metal, you need a plasma torch. For my cutting torch I built a special cutting tip that Victor does not supply. It has only one heating jet and a single O2 cutting jet. Regular cutting tips put out too much heat and melt the area rather than making a clean cut. My cutting tip heats a much smaller area and then the O2 jet will actually burn the metal with a clean kerf. These tips are tricky to use, because you always have to follow the heat jet with the cutting jet and that means a lot of torch manipulation. I do not recommend that anyone make their own tips. I use a plasma torch for sheet metal unless I am in a remote location where only gas will do.

....

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1st JD
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2003-03-03          50449

First off, thank you for all the helpful information. I have been practicing on a beat-up plow I am adapting for my tractor. I have straightened it and welding a new cutting edge on it. I have only cut with the torch and I havn't had the need to weld or braze with it. It was working great until I took the tanks to get them filled today. When I tried cutting tonight they started spitting fluid and outting the torch. I would re-light the torch and try to cut but soon it would spit fluid out and the flame would go out. I waited an hour and tried it again and the same thing was happening. After 45 minutes of cutting and re-lighting the acl. tank was half used and the oxy tank was where it should be after that amount of use. Any thoughts??? I am going to take the set back to the welding store and ask for help tomorrow but I would like to sound semi-educated. Thanks ....

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TomG
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2003-03-04          50468

That sure sounds like the acetone problem that Mark and AZ mentioned. It is a dangerous thing to have happen and the problem should be cured. It's good they mentioned the problem so at least you had some sense of what was happening.

I'm assuming that both the original and refilled tanks were used only when upright. If the original tank didn't emit acetone when cutting and the refilled did there may a level issue. If you used the rosebud from the original tank quite a bit before switching to cutting than the cutting would have been done from a partially filled tank. If the refilled tank stopped emitting acetone after it was used for awhile, I'd guess that the cutting tip is drawing too much flow from a small tank and it just can't be used with a full tank. Using a smaller tip or backing off on the pressure may cure the problem, or just planning work so that heavy cutting isn't done with a fresh tank. These solutions do sound like a pain though.
....

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marklugo
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2003-03-04          50471

Be very careful with the tank. It may have a lot of free acetylene inside. It sounds like either (depending on the age or amnufacturer of the cylinder) honey comb has broken down or there is a lack of it. Call your gas store before you move it too much juat to be on the safe side. ....

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Captain B
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2003-03-04          50475

First JD--As a relative newcomer to welding and one who has already experienced several safety scares I offer the following. As the posts reveal, there is far more to basic welding than is intuitively obvious. Safety is a huge consideration. I mean fire and explosion. I have never thought of myself as overly cautious. That said, I would never consider lighting a torch or striking an arc without first taking a welding course. Even the excellent books I recommended can't address the many nitty gritty questions that pop up immediately. Most voc-tech high schools offer basic night welding courses. I am taking one now. It cost $200 for 16 three-hours sessions over 9 weeks. It has been incredibly useful. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-03-04          50508

If the fluid is acetone it will smell like a solvent. It could also be water that somehow got in the tank valve by rain or contamination and it will not smell like a solvent.

You should always crack the valves on a new tank to blow out any water or contamination before attaching your regulators. If you laid the Acetylene tank on its side, then you could be seeing acetone. Normally, acetone will not come out of a tank that is kept upright and used at the proper acetylene volume.

B is right about the basic training. I have been welding and making new mistakes for 40 yrs. Once you have taken a course or get training, then you have to practice to stay on top of the game. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-03-05          50576

There is a lot of free information available at the following site. It is a site that the military has for welding safety and techniques. It might be useful to many.

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-237/toc.htm ....

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1st JD
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2003-03-05          50578

Well, the verdict is in...the Harris kit I purchased along with the tanks from the welding store had a propane tip on the cutting torch. I took it back down to them to ask for help and they took it in the back...after about 10 minutes they came out and took me back to show me the problem. They thought I put the tip on but it is the one that came with the kit and it matched the tip in the kit on the floor so I was proven right on this point. They were very nice and explained pressure to me saying not to run the acy. more than 5 lbs and the oxy. about 38 lbs for cutting. Seems they figured I compansated for the tip by uping pressure and this caused the acy. to spit the fluid out. I still wasn't completely sold until I unloaded it this morning and cut with it today...worked fine. Thanks everyone for the info and schooling does sound good. Also, I will check out the site mentioned and see what info I can pick up! ....

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slowrev
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2003-03-05          50592

I just bought a set of Victor torches. I knew they had a set with a propane tip available, but could not find one anywhere. I just bought the regular set and ordered a propane cutting tip for it. ....

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kadorken
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2003-10-30          67516

Is there a method of determining a propane cutting tip from an acetylene cutting tip by observation?

....

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blizzard
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2003-10-30          67523

MAPP (methylacetylene-propadiene) gas is a much safer and more economical alternative to acetylene. It also 'pushes' the heat deeper so the distance from tip to metal is not so critical. You can use a much larger rosebud (for short periods) than with a single acetylene cylinder. No #15 limit. No acetone. Tanks are lighter and contain more fuel. MAPP tips are available for most torches. You might like to look into it.

Link Address http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14250/css/14250_78.htm

The company I retired from banned the use of acetylene about 5 years ago.

bliz

....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-30          67537

You need to check the numbers to make sure. Your welding supply store should be able to tell you. Propane cutting is not that common for consumer systems in this area. Most cutting torches and tips sold with consumer systems are for acetylene. ....

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kadorken
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2003-11-26          69653

I just purchased a propane tip in place of acetylene tips. The victor model I purchased for propane is a 2 piece tip (compared to 1 piece for the acetylene).

The other observable difference is the pattern of the 'holes'. The propane holes appear as little triangular shapes around the oxygen cutting hole (fluted tips), versus
a pattern of circular holes around the cutting hole for acetylene.

Also had to get type "T" hose rather than standard type "R" hose to use propane over acetylene (according to my welding supply store).

Overall, it was still cheaper to use my propane barbecue tank than purchasing an acetylene "B" tank, even with buying a different hose and tip. ....

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