Go BottomHow can we help TractorPoint
 | buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire 
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2003-09-12 63685
Dennis,
Just finished looking at the registering on tractorpoint thread and thought that perhaps its time for a rational discussion of how we can help you be successful. I do love the site and understand the cost involved with maintaining it. The issue I have with the concept of premium service (though I do agree all users should register) is not the money, but that its contrary to what makes internet sites great; the "network effect" (Metcalfe’s Law states that, “the usefulness, or utility, of a network equals the square of the number of users.") Anything you do that limits the number of users limits the effectiveness of the site (The substance is coming from the users) therefore preventing you from accessing significant advertising dollars.
Anyone have any ideas on how we can access more users and make money for the site without charging the users?
Just my thoughts, thanks for listening, keep up the good work.
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 | DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ 
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2003-09-12 63687
Thanks for the constructive imput!
Last week I posted about how I got a new PDA an HP Ipaq 2215 and a new Cell phone a Sony Ericsson T616. I mention this because, it gave me some new exposure to a subscription service called Advantgo.
Advantgo allows PDA users to have a Free subscription to various Web sites like CNN, Sports Illustrated....that get downloaded to your PDA when it is connected to your laptop so you can view the content when you are on the road at a Wendy's and want to surf what's going on...
OK cool right! Yup. How's it work?
1) you must register for .. no problem here. And you get a good taste of the system for free, sufficient for most casual users.
2) If you get hooked on the idea you need to get a premium membership and this expands your capabilities significantly.
Guess what. This is so popular that CNN will no longer let Advantgo distribute their content. So now there is a subscription CNNtoGo for a fee. Realone is the same it goes on and on for subscription content...
Now as far as application to TractorPoint, perhaps the subscription thing may not be compelling enough??? So far the subscription approach has been a significant improvement to this site.
Your comment that volume is important is correct. Unfortunately, the advertising paradigm died about 24 months ago. From 1998 til then it was only barely viable but not now. Most web businesses like TractorPoint are looking at micro mini purchases, like our subscription 6 pennies a day deal.
To make the subscription more acceptable sites are making barter type arrangemnets with vendors to give $$ off coupons to Subscription paying members.
One way to undo the subscription service is to sell things to members that members want, like Tractor Tire Chains, Wheel Weights, Grade Blades, Box scrappers and other simple implements that local dealers add no service value to and can be drop shipped to the customer.
I have been looking into this as well.
Anyway thanks for the input and any other comments are welcome.
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-12 63690
I still like the baseball caps, coffee mug, and Tractor Point Babe Calender idea. Is that practical or not enough demand to justify the cost? ....
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| DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-12 63691
Chief,
You had told me about your other ideas, but not the Babe one, now that puts a whole new light on the subject! God this is good!
We'll have you guys submit Babe entry photos, we'll have a vote and we'll sell the calendars off the site.
Great idea. Start sending in the Pix now the 12 Miss TractorPoint finalists will compete for the the 2004 Miss TractorPoint Crown and a prize of a $1000, and a promise to have her pix on the home page for all of 2004.
What do you guys think???? Calendars $20 each ?? ....
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 | F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2003-09-12 63692
"Chief,
You had told me about your other ideas, but not the Babe one, now that puts a whole new light on the subject! God this is good!
We'll have you guys submit Babe entry photos, we'll have a vote and we'll sell the calendars off the site.
Great idea. Start sending in the Pix now the 12 Miss TractorPoint finalists will compete for the the 2004 Miss TractorPoint Crown and a prize of a $1000, and a promise to have her pix on the home page for all of 2004.
What do you guys think???? Calendars $20 each ?? "
I am shaving my legs as we speak! I want to be Miss November, it is my birthday month! ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-12 63693
Don't forget the "Miss Top & Tilt" contest. Hope you guys have some uninhibited wives and girl friends! LOL! Scott, watch that razor burn. Really shows up bad in panty hose. ;-) ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63694
If your going to have a miss TractorPoint calendar it's only fair that you give the women a mister TractorPoint calendar. That means sending in pictures of studly TractorPoint members for publication. Dennis mentioned the need for a TractorPoint diet plan - this just might help promote that idea :) ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-12 63695
How about the old back-door method.
I'm sure that if dealers could get their customers better educated they would spend less time talking to them, without compensation, about routine maintenance, operation, abilities, methods or just silly little things or idle curiousity about their new machine.
Now having said that don't jump on me yet, I realize this is a cost of doing business, I have to do it too, I gladly spend untold dollars a year educating my customers, and the apreciate it.
However, just as with any other cost of business, if it can be reduced, there is a chance profit will increase, or at least the productivity will.
So, the pitch to a dealer is, when you sell a CUT give the customer the manuals and books that tell them about their unit, AND a membership to TractorPoint where they can learn everything else they need toeffectively & SAFELY use their new unit.
I doubt any dealer could get better value for about one tenth of one percent of the sale price than that, if somebody thinks they can chew the fat with a customer for long for $20 they're dreaming....
Just my northern two cents worth....
Best of luck. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63696
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the original poster who started this thread with good intentions, but this is too fun. How about these categories?
Miss Receiver Hitch
Miss Loader Rollback
Miss Rotary Cutter (Lorena Bobbit?)
OK, I'll go back to work now. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63698
Murf, that sounds like some solid out-of-the-box thinking!
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-12 63699
Babe? Babe calendar?
Wasn't that a talking pig in the movies?
Oh wait! I get it. The AG connection? ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-12 63700
Murf,
That is an OUTSTANDING idea! The best I have heard yet. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-12 63701
If we do the ball cap thing...... can we please make sure we don't get the cheap pin-head caps like the dealers give out? I have two of them on the desk now that will have to go to someone with small children.
We(I)need one that expands to size 8. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63704
Mark, you're not alone I wear caps in the 7 1/2 to 8 range myself. ....
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| DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-12 63705
I have a big scandinavian noggen myself, I hate those small adjustable strap hats, but that's all I have, last ball cap that was the right size is from when played ball in college.
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-12 63707
Already makes me feel better knowing I am not the only "Melon Head" here. I take a 7 3/4 - 8 too. ....
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| buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire
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2003-09-12 63709
Ok, this is fun, but seriously....
Dennis, you have the ability to collect from your users a great deal of data that is of value to the manufactures of machines and implements - what is a better target market for these companies than a group of people interesed enough in tractors to spend time on the site. It would seem that an exchange of personal info for premimum membership could provide value.
How about using the users to cary the message to the dealers... A printable brochure describe the site and adv. program could be made available on the site for us to give our dealers...
anyone have any other thoughts? ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63710
buzst1, I was thinking the same thing. I'd be more than happy to take some brochures to some local dealers. The only concern that I have is this - some dealers may look at TractorPoint as a bad thing since we discuss tractor pricing and where to get good deals. If a dealer doesn't want to compete on price alone he may not want to participate. ....
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| buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire
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2003-09-12 63712
yep, thats why the network effect becomes so important the more users we get on the site, the more difficult it is for the dealers not to participate ....
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| DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-12 63713
Guys,
I have had dealers as advertisers in the past. Steve Carver was a sponsor from 1998 until two years ago.
Carver was a visionary and opportunist at the time. Here is the problem though Carver got his wrists slapped by Kubuta for ruining how a Kubota franchise is supposed to work.
The local Powerco dealer I visited knew about Carver and was none to happy about it. I have to agree with Powerco, Powerco built a big repairshop, invested in building the infrastructure of a dealership and so a guy (Carver in NC) who will never see the customer again low balls me because he knows it and even making 50 bucks on the deal is better than no deal. This is BAD for Kubota, and ultimately you the buyer.
Most dealers look at their business as an area franchise, this is heavy stuff and it doesn't pay to send stuff anywhere very far.
The point is that advertising on TP has little value to a local Dealer unless like Corriher they still can ship out of state.
Manufacturers have better opportunity to sponsor, I was in contact with John Deere last year, and they had ridiculously small budget, and unrealistic requirements, so we never got anywhere.
I still think to get out of the Subscription mode TP would have to become an Implement Seller, or buyer conduit like a "carpoint".
Ideas? ....
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| buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire
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2003-09-12 63714
A agree about the dealers ads if you assume a traditional static add... "come see XXX tractor for your best deal" but there is much dynamic info that a dealer could/should communicate to his local audience that wouls be of value. Tractor supply is a good example. ....
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 | SethO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19 Marshfield
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2003-09-12 63715
My belief is that evetually the decision to charge for participation will diminish the quality and breadth of content with only the regulars exchanging pleasantaries. An example is this and a similar thread where most of posts have been from the regulars.
Nineteen dollars is a small amount, but the promise of the web is not having to pay this, particularly in the face of ads that are prominent on the site that people did not mind.
Voluntary contributions are nice, and do reflect a recognition of benfits from a resource like this, but mandated subscription is not neccesary. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-12 63716
Maybe I was mis-understood in making my point, I was NOT trying to imply that the dealers would be advertisers. That is too tough a nut to crack, as you mentioned.
The dealers, or manufacturers, COULD however, give away a free membership in TractorPoint as a sales hook, no different than a baseball cup or coffee mug, just a whole lot more useful.
It couldn't cause a rift between dealers, or make things difficult on the manufacturer or distributor to EDUCATE a customer, nobody would lose a sale over it.
With societys readiness to litigate it might even be a little insurance for all involved to say they did everything they could to teach responsible use of the unit.
IMHO, resale of equipment is what us farmer-types call a "silly circle", you become part of the cut-throat "I can sell it for $2 less" mentality where you spend $5 in time and effort to earn $4 in commission...
Do something well and most people will notice it, do something poorly and EVERYBODY will notice it...
Besides, selling anything is a numbers game, if you get one sale for every ten thousand visitors that is OK, provided you GET ten thousand vistors... or spend money advertising the site to get visitors....Oooopps, theres that circle again.....LOL
Best of luck. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-12 63717
I'm not sure the charge for premium membership is related to any perceived reduction in the number of posts by non-regulars. There are lots of premium members who rarely post. In fact, I've noticed that the number of posts by new members have been picking up quite a bit over the last month or so.
Most folks on this board don't want it to be or become a clubby forum for insiders - everyone is welcome and their posts are necessary for TractorPoint to thrive. I haven't been here for more than a few months but I felt welcome when I joined. And for the record, TractorPoint has been worth every penny of the membership fee and then some.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-13 63746
I sort of like the idea of a free 30-day premium member trial. People get used to the advantages and are more likely to pay the really trivial fee. I checked out a former high traffic site whose traffic crashed but didn't complete the free registration because I just wanted to know what was going on. Besides, I'm happy here.
I agree with comments elsewhere that any organization new of otherwise has to balance the us and them stuff. If the us's get to full of themselves then they aren't very attractive to potential new menders. Every group of us's eventually get sick of themselves. I said I think we do a decent job of that here. All groups depend on new menbers for their viability.
Mass production and merchandising reduces almost any organization but the internationals to doing custom work. Cripes even medical care has become MacTreatment. My 80-year-old father in law came away from a doc appointment with an info handout that talked about athletics. Essentially custom work is what we do here. Anybody can ask a specific question and get personal responses. They do have to wade through some banter etc. among regulars because that's what keeps the regulars going. That idea probably can't be made into a fund-raiser but there are a few mechanics etc. trying to sell expert advice on line.
Net advertising doesn't work except for a very few large directory and shopping sites and it probably never did. Site hits don't translate into sales so nobody's going to pay much for a banner. There are pay per banner hit operations I haven't gone for any of them for my own commercial site. We like all small organizations survive by custom work. It's good to figure out what's the product and what's the business. Mostly the product is us.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-13 63750
I broke my response into two chapters. I'm right in the middle of doing some of the fund-raoising idea mentioned.
I'm editing a batch of 20's - 40's pics to make a calendar for our public library board. I don't imagine the idea will raise much money even given my free labour. It's still custom work and the product is old pics for people with connections to our township. That's a really small market and high production costs can't be avoided. We're competing with some really good calendars businesses hand out for free. Our quality has to be comparable and the price low because even with the local connection we're competing with high quality for free. Holding down production costs is tough to do with small print runs, and I won't be doing the printing free or otherwise.
It's the same issue for T-shirts and caps (I've given up on my dealer cap. No matter what I do the bill ends up riding on my glasses frame. It's free but the low quality makes it too expensive to actually wear). I'm making T-shirts mostly for my wife's books but they're for gifts and promotion rather than sale. People will wear them because I've edited digital camera images into something approaching art. There is an appeal because there's never going be more than a few and you can't buy one. That's what art is about and why the originals have value and copies don't. Plenty of small organizations have been burnt trying to fund raise with T-shirt and hats that just have logos on them. Who care's about a logo for a small organization except its members? I've offered an image to our local snowmobile club I made for my nephew who likes tractors (it's their groomer). Somebody might wear such a thing but the club was one of those that got burnt with T-shirt ideas. The web link below goes to a small version of what it might take to sell beyond members. I doubt my image really is commercial but it's an improvement over a logo.
Packaging content seems an appealing idea. I wonder how the world's greatest repository etc. book did? My wife is her own publisher. She's making costs maybe. Amateur writers don't move a lot of books and it costs a lot to print a few. I've seen some pretty good expert systems on CD and maybe that's a better package for content. Still costs a lot though.
Don't know! Maybe there are a few ideas to the site in all this, but it's a tough subject.
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Link: T-shirt
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-13 63755
The best way for the members to help is to be a good member. We all need to remember that one mans dream might be our night mare! Lets help him the best we can, maybe he doesn't want to be there either! Maybe they are not aware of the differences of equipment or maybe for there location there is not an option. The members need to be helpful,after all theres two reasons to be here either looking for help, or offering it. If people get what they wanted while here, they will be back and thats what Dennis needs. If we see someways to help him lets send him an e-mail to tell him. I do think we need to get back to why we come here and not worry about one in a million. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-13 63759
Yep, Art that's about the best recommendation I've heard. I thought it was worth me going on at length about some of the ideas raised here because I'm actually doing them. It's mostly to illustrate how hard it is for small organizations to actually raise significant money and how easy it is to loose money and waste a bunch of time as well.
Comments about tractors and related subjects are what we contribute best. Beyond that, helping new comers to both tractors and computers feel at ease is a good second.
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-09-13 63763
Murf - I agree with the concept of selling dealers on memberships to the Tractor Point. I have talked with any dealer I have visited in the last few years, most do not think there customers are computer literate. Old school vs new school. This is probably not the case but?
Tom and Art - I hate to see a posters question go unanswered and I have seen a few slip by as the rolling window does not pick up the obsure question that few are capable of answering. If it is in a hot topic it can easily be covered up by the next post. Maybe we could have another window with new posts only so we can be more helpful.
I think were are missing a potential source of revinue in the classifieds For example there are 50 listings from this year in JD. If we charged to post on this listing and made sure it only ran for the period paided for. There would be a additional source. If I run an add in the local paper the it cost me to sell equipment. A comparible charge? Additional for Pic?
I discussed with Dennis the idea of having data sheets on tractors on the web. Currently we look to this or that site to find data in various forms. If we had data in a consistant form that the user/buyer could print out and compare the data on his new or used equipment buys. This would possibly be in strip form that the user could overlay each data strip to compare the new and used tractors of interest. JD has something but it only covers new tractors and probably would require more time. This would attract additional users and could possibly be used to attract sellers as the seller could link to the specs on the tractor.
I would think this could also be a good dealer attractor as he often doesnot have all the data on a used tractor. Like other links we could also make this a feature that requires membership after a number of uses or to print data?
Just my thoughts Peters ....
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| buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire
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2003-09-15 63916
Hey will you guys stop posting such long messages... I can't read them ....
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