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TractorPoint is SO MUCH BETTER than the other board

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-07-31          60581

Ya know, it sure is GREAT that we can come over here and talk without worrying about being censored. I can't say enough good things about Dennis and (most of) the members of this board. It is SO much less PC than the "other" board.



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TractorPoint is SO MUCH BETTER than the other board

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-01          60603

This is as good of a site as there is available! Post-on! ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-01          60612

Yes I certainly agree. This is the best forum site of any type that I know of. Lots of good members with a LOT of knowledge to share and a place where we can simply speak our peace and move on. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-08-01          60623

I do wonder if some of our "locker room" banter might offend some of our female guests.

We certainly don't need moderators! Maybe we can clean up our act just a bit though. What Thinketh Thou? ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-01          60628

Mark, my wife doesn't drive more than a 48" cut lawn mower and she is a kindergarden teacher. When she is at home I can't keep up with her! It does take all kinds, and if someone desires a word or two has always provided here. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-08-01          60629

Art, try it again. I not sure I understand what you are trying to say. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-08-01          60630

I agree, I think Mark has a good point. Maybe we should keep the locker room talk confined to this section or make one for it. Probably really should not be talking like that in the tractor or related sections. Will do my best to be aware of that and keep it reasonable Mark. I thought about that after I replied to Lt. Censeless and went back and cleaned it up. I should not have let that idiot get me fired up like that. Does not help the board at all when new people see that. ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-01          60631

I have to agree with Mark. Speaking solely for myself I have posted a little too much tom foolery and innuendo lately. The one thing I love about this site is the ability to go back and edit or delete, which I have done for some of my posts this morning. I would note that no matter how the forum develops it is often how the receipient reads the message. As in what tone. anger and humor can easily be misstaken by others and I myself find that I sometimes have a certain meaning and I re-read it the next day and I can easily see how another person might have gotten a different meaning. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-01          60637

I've always believed this is the best board not withstanding the specialty antique boards. There's decent technical content and room to pursue subjects in some detail (and Lord I'm given to detail). We don't seem to have a star system or a bunch of personalities. Most important we seem to be able to solve our attitude issues on our own.

Censorship always is capricious and arbitrary since it's done from only one perspective. I believe that the 'content we receive' is an individual responsibility and if we allow content to fall to official censors we fail to exercise our individual responsibility. If something offends or pushes a button we have to object, and the objections have to be received. We've been able to do that here and do it well.

Ironically it was a variation of a censorship issue that resulted in me halting my participation over there. I was on the receiving end of a national joke. I objected (indirectly, which was my own failing). I didn't ask for censorship but suggested that the board owner could show some leadership in indicating appropriate content. What I got was the owner claiming not to have said things that were said and fluffing off my objection 'just good clean fun' you know.

I suppose I've got to say that I am a native born U.S. citizen. I came to my adopted country after four years volunteer Nam era U.S. military service (Never there thankfully). The experience gives me some very conflicted and painful (mostly scar tissue now though) perspective on some subjects. Somebody without my baggage might have objected and gotten in the jokester's face about it. I couldn't and got no support for how I did object.

Over there, I objected to content gently but the objections weren't received and I was out of there. I always liked this place better so there wasn't really any 'never looking back.' Now years later they've got formal censors over there it seems, but that's not what I asked for. My and the current experiences there aren't connected, but 'Go figure.'

Best to solve problems and censorship isn't usually a solution. Content is our responsibility and we seem to exercise it very well. We do real well with tractor content too. Dennis plays his ownership role very well as well as the technical role.

Some of this I hope is a commentary on how we might continue to avoid content problems, or at least that's my rationalization for length of this. We all have our baggage and our buttons, and we can't know what other people's are interacting through screens and keyboards as we do. Particular content may offend or victimize a particular person. I believe an offended person doesn't have a right to censorship but they do have a right to object and for the objection to be heard, but maybe not remedied. That's the way families and communities manage these things. Maybe that's what we're working on. ....

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tracer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 boyce Va
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2003-08-01          60642

Greetings all
What is this other board you all are talking about? Some one send me a link or email so I can see for myself.
Censorship stinks. We are unfortunately going to a place where individuals are not appreciated unless they are not individuals. All I can do is be my self and fight like Hell to keep our God given Rights intact.
Just my Humble Opinion. :)
Tracer ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-08-01          60647

Well said Tom! Come to think of it; it is kinda like a family here. Wait!!!!!! Time for a group hug!!!!! You too Doc!!!! Jeff!!!! Just kiddin'. ;-) But I'll drink to that! Great site with some great folks. ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-01          60648

No lets hold hands and sing camp fire songs. good grief. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-01          60657

Mark is probably right, although my wife could hold her own with the best of us. With freedom comes responsibility and regretably that seems to be mostly forgotten these days. We want to encourage new members and cussing and innuendo may not attract the desirable kind. That said, I like a rancorous discussion as much as the next guy!

I generally try not to post anything I would later be ashamed of. What if my Mom ever figured out how to use google? LOL Seriously, an old childhood friend who I hadn't heard from for several decades sent me an email few years ago saying that he saw my name on a post where I was behaving like a two year old. That made me think some.

....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-01          60659

I vote for Kumbaya! LOL
....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-01          60661

Well said Tom! As some lyrics in our US national anthem say, "Confirm thy soul in self control". A worthy goal I think. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-02          60738

Mark, my wife will out curse me on any day. Some of my freinds will get going on some rough context with a conversation and the next thing we know she is leading! Go figure! She teaches kindergarten, the future leaders of our country, when she gets in the car and drives out of the school yard she switches gears and hang on. Do you think me and the three boys might have something to do with this? ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-08-02          60757

Ok, I get it now. I guess sometimes one has to speak the language of the audience. I certainly did when I was policing the bar-fly crowd.

Anyway I am neither concerned or embarrassed over the occasional potty word that slips in here. I was more concerned about the sexual innuendo. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-08-02          60758

You are exactly right Mark. We should not do that here and I am guilty of it as well. I'll definitely be more thinking of what I post in the future. The BIG difference here is that we all have been allowed to work posts through and make these changes for the right reasons instead of being threatened and censored. This IS a great board and I would feel VERY badly if I did something to harm its reputation or its perception by others. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-08-02          60772

I guess I am a poor judge of this topic. I made a choice to participate in this board a number of years ago and really have not looked at the others since. I made my choice primarily on Dennis' superior construction. I was not willing to post on an arcane system where you could not determine what the thread was about without opening each post.
Recent investigation show the one site posting in the same manner and the other using a system similar to the one Dennis developed.
Tom, being in the opposite to you. I am sure that there is far less aggravating comments there than here. In the area I grew up in there were a lot of DD living in communes. For a lot of them their morals did not improve once they had families. Not necessarily evil but pushing the limit on every liberty.
Each of us come from a different view point. You can not expect somebody that grew up in the backwoods to have the same language set as someone else. I have had heated discussions with Ph.D.s over terminology in my written papers because they had never used a particular word in that context. This is the difference between the Oxford (inclusive) and the Webesters (exclusive) use of language. Unfortunately this thought pattern can extend to a lot of other areas of life if allowed. Reviewing the current norms rather than learning new ideas.
It is very difficult to get a point across clearly in type at the set of times. Without the voice inflections on the single syllable words or parts there, of most of us are lost. The odd disagreement is to be expected.
We all know what we term as offensive language. Growing up in west coast logging towns, standard language at work would probably offend most. When I moved to New England, I was accosted numerous times for swearing using words like Crap. For me it was difficult to take as most did not even know the difference between foul or offensive language and swearing.
I have been guilty of going off on ideological bends as has every one here at one point or other I am sure. Just remember "when you try to teach a pig to sing all you end up doing is aggravating yourself and annoying the pig".
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-03          60813

The simple version of what I was saying is that we're doing something right here (emphasis on the WE'RE). Not anybody else; just us participants (emphasis on US).

The trouble I have with censorship is that the people who accept it usually don't have much to offer either. Everything becomes vanilla flavoured and ends up satisfying only vanilla flavoured people who don't really want much anyway. What I experience is my business. I'm my own censor. I either do something about what offends or go somewhere else. That's my own responsibility and letting somebody else do it just diminishes me and everybody else as well.

There were some comments from an interloper awhile back that ended with something like 'Well let's see how Dennis handles this flammer.' My point is that Dennis didn't, one way or another we did. That's how things work best. There is a role for leadership and on occasion we've had some of that too.

We're doing something right and I'm not sure what it is. I remember that 'flamming and response' pretty well destroyed the board (at)agriculture. Got so you couldn't find anything about tractors. The site manager tried a reformat. Flocks of 'I hate the new format and am never coming back' response. The site used to be the high traffic place and posts dropped from hundreds a day to about a half-dozen within weeks. The new format was better, I just think everybody was sick or each other. Censorship for spamming pretty well destroyed SSB as a discussion site. We've avoided appreciable censorship, been through format changes, charges, and flammers. We still here and going strong.

A word about flamming and response: There's an expression in boxing: 'Never dance with a dancer or hook with a hooker.' They only do it because they really can't punch, and if you get sucked into it neither can you. Punching is the game in boxing just like tractor content is here. Almost always, ya win if you can hold the centre of the ring and ya can't hold the centre unless you can punch. Of course boxers know that ya got to dance some to sell tickets. Politics etc. and flamming can be fun. Just don't get moved too far out of the centre and forget that tractors is why people come here.
....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-03          60836

The words needed to properly describe the censored board have evaded me, but you nailed it Tom. Vanilla. Vanilla conversations by vanilla people. No spice, no flavors, just plain boring vanilla. The hot fudge, whipped cream, nuts, and cherries are missing.

....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-03          60837

After hearing lots of complaining about "the other site" I took a look for myself. Its just my point of view but it is hardly as censored as some would have us think. I suppose if you deliberately go out of your way to argue with a moderator it might not be too pleasant but I do not find that to be the case. Just because they do not allow blatently foul language and total flamers I fail to see how that makes a "vanilla" world. There is as much general banter there as here. Instead of the bannana split vs vanilla analagy it would seem more potato vs potatoe to me. i certainly do not see that the grass in greener over there but some members here like to paint the picture of a unjust world on the other side of the fence. Its a bit like speeding down the expressway. You know the speed limit. You know you are breaking the rules and putting your self in peril but you do it any way. I mean after all the guy in front of and behind you is speeding too. Then it happens . You get a ticket and all of a sudden its a cruel and unfair world because jimmy did not get spanked too. I do feel the members here have more knowledge and I am thankfull for the site but flamers and such either shut down a post as no one wants to "step in it" or it leads to unpleasantnes. Balance is a good thing and ideally we can do our own blanceing act. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-04          60874

I'm entirely interested doing well here and preserving what is happening. Censorship is a general issue with me. This and YTMAG are the only boards I've read at all in years.

I probably had had some vanilla flavoured frustration when I was over there as well but my issue was not with the participants. I don't know how things are elsewhere now but I think we've got it good here and that's what I'm interested in.

Balance is good. Joe Lewis had incredible balance, which is probably why he reigned the longest. Had quick feet too. Nobody ever moved Larry Homes out of the centre. He did it all with the basics (jab and cross) and he reigned a long time. Never lost that fight either according to the pros I watched the fight with.

Oops, I'm lapsing into metaphor again so I'll stop and just say that to me censorship is being out of balance. Or at least it's an artificially imposed balance, which is why it doesn't really work. It's good here and censorship is what we don't have. It's what you get when people expect someone else to do what they should do for themselves. ....

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