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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-07-24          60077

I am getting ready to take an extended offroad trip up into the Utah Canyonlands. The park rangers have rules against guns, but I would not even consider going on this trip without one. There are regular reports of bear problems and two legged varmits can always be a problem. The park rangers seem to take a "Don't ask, don't tell" attitude.

Because of the rules, we are not going to be doing any plinking or fun shooting. This is strictly for personal protection in an area where we are going to be over a day away by offroad vehicle from civilization and professional medical care. That means no cell phones, water, toilets, gasoline or any of the other amenities. I will certainly take a 10mm, .44Mag or 45ACP handgun. Any of these will do fine, but I tend to favor the 10mm. I think I want to take a long gun also.

The question is, what long gun would be best? I have a Springfield Armory survival gun which is .22/.410, but I think that gun might be underpowered for potential problems that might arise. How do .410 slugs do against a bear?

I could bring the old reliable Winchester 30-30 and I am sure that would work just fine. Other options that come to mind are a 12 ga. pump with some slugs and buckshot or my old Ruger .44 carbine rifle.

I am not going hunting, so I have no intention at all of bringing a hunting gun with a scope and all. The guns need to be stowable in cases and discrete. I have been thinking about this for a few days now, and I thought that it might be a good topic for the discussion group.


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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-24          60079

ACZ; I am not sure of your hunting experience but if you have never hunted bears you would have to see them move after their hit to believe it. And thats with a gun and cartridge matched for the job. Typically most outfitters want that first shot in the shoulder so they dont run more than 60 yards. I have personally seen a "dead" bear with broken shoulders cover that much ground faster than you can say "oh #$% !". Based on that I sure would not go for the 22/410 combo. Considering that it is strictly defensive I would probably omit the long gun but of those mentioned I would surely go for the 12 guage with the biggest baddest slug or sabot I could get my hands on. In the hand guns I would take the one you quick draw best with the biggest solid slug. No hollow points in this scenario for me. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-07-24          60080

I have hunted small black bears and wild boar with a cross-bow. I would carry a Marlin .357 lever gun as backup, but never had to shoot the rifle. On other occasions, I have used 8X57 Mauser and .308 for rifle hunts. I am familiar with dangerous game.

While doing off-road adventures, I have had bears in my truck but I have never been forced to kill one of them. They have torn up coolers and so forth, but never caused any injuries. I have shot a .357M from my pistol into trees near them to keep them out of my camp. This works with many, but the bears in this part of the world get agressive because people feed them and they become accustomed to humans and associate food with them.

One of my buddies that is going on the trip said that he is not worried because he is going to put a pork chop near my sleeping bag before he goes to sleep every night. I told him that I was not worried, because I was bringing a magnum super soaker filled with honey to wet him down after he plants the pork chop.

Seriously, though, the 12 ga. with a Brenke sabot slug is high on my list. I have an 870 with an 18.5" bbl with slug sights that would work fine. But at the same time, I expect that over history there have been more bears killed with a 30-30 than just about any other cartridge.

I grew up on a farm and have hunted since about age 12. I taught shooting and hunter safety. I am a big believer in gun control...you know...hitting your target. I am not worried at all about using the gun properly if I need it. ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-24          60082

Well if your pard gets too sweet you can always sprinkle a little cayenne on his TP . lol. I would say overall being prepared is the key. Most arms would work quite well in a pinch. For the most part a noise maker is adequite. But you sure got it right about the ones that have been fed being trouble makers. Here the bruins that get relocated get a red ear tag. I see a red tag and my tolerance for bear play goes WAY down. Its always the one trouble maker you really have to prepare for. I would venture a guess that more deer have been taken with a 30-30 than any other but I am a little skeptikal about the bears. A Nice gun no doubt but I would sure choose that 12 guage over the 30-30. After my last bear trip I consider a 300 mag minimum and would really go for a 375 H&H. Any Fishing on the agenda ?
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-07-24          60084

Of the weapons you mentioned in your posession. I would suggest the 44 mag. with the hottest/heaviest load available and the 12 gauge with removed magazine plug utilizing a mix of Brenke sabot slugs and 00 buck shot. You aim is to first repel any beast human or fur bearing to protect you and your party and secondary is killing it which would take more than a few shots if a large bear. If you hurt it bad, it ain't coming back for more. Pepper spray is not a bad idea either. Just my 2cents worth. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-07-24          60088

44 mag and 44 mag, in a 300 grain bullet. ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-24          60090

Buffalo bore Ammo offers some wicked hot solid loads for the 44 mag. Not easy on the green but not easy on a agressive bear either. I have always been a 44 mag fan but the 45 is my favorite auto. Old dog same tricks I guess. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-25          60109

This is all good advice. This trip is going to be a dry hot trip that is 100% off-road over slick-rock, boulders, and other obstacles. There will be no fishing, but the Green river will be within two miles at points on the trip. We will be in the higher country. The planned loop will take about three days in total to complete.

I have a couple of .44Mags that would work fine. Probably the best choice is a Smith 629 with a 4" bbl. It is small enough to carry and packs plenty of punch. My Ruger Super Redhawk is scoped and is good for hunting but a little big for this situation. The reason that I mentioned the 10mm is that it is even more compact than the 629. It is a Glock 20, packs a considerable punch and carries 15 rounds in the magazine. The 10mm with the loads I use is very much like a .41Mag ballistically.

I think that the 870 with the slug bbl is probably the other gun that will go. It is pretty versatile at close range. I really did not know about the .410 slugs. I have never used one for hunting. I have used the .44 M Ruger Carbine for deer, and a .44 will pack a good punch when used in a rifle barrel. But, I consider the Ruger .44 to be a "brush" gun for shots under 100yds.

My comment about the 30-30 relates as much to its time in service and general popularity as much as anything. I would never use the 30-30 to hunt large dangerous game. But, over the years, it has protected many homes and ranchers around the west and does pretty well for a light cartridge in a light gun.

It seems that today, we tend to use some pretty heavy calibers to assure one shot humane kills on game. I support this. I have a .338Mag that I would use for hunting boar, bear or elk. I use .308 for most other hunting. Pests are dispatched with a .223 or whatever is handy. I chased off a couple of ferel dogs yesterday morning with a bull whip.

The bears that we may encounter will generally be medium size black bears. They are not generally dangerous and can be driven away with noise. But, with people feeding them and with dangerous bears being located to the area where we are going to be, I think a little extra caution is called for. Pepper spray was also mentioned. I ordered a big can of that yesterday. It should arrive before my trip.

....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-07-25          60137

20-gauge is minimum size shot gun for black bear around here. Think I'd want something heavier than minimum for defense, which probably wouldn't be a planned shot exactly. Not a good thing to have to go looking for a wounded one. I carry pepper spray myself. There are some pamphlets that might be good to read. Some go beyond the usual 'don't do this' in bear country and talk some about bear behaviour and how to better judge if you're genuinely being threatened.

It comes up a couple of times a year that I need to dump something off-hours and find myself in a contest of wills with one or several bear. I figure it's best if I have some confidence that I know what they're about to do so I can give'um more room if necessary. With some persistence I do move them far enough from the pit so I can dump things. I figure that probably would work most times with a camp too. But from experience I can say that if a bear gets on your camp it's time to move. They'll always be back.

My wife came back from the store today and one of the township guys told her that our Natural Resources people shot and killed one of our dump bear. I think I know the one, and it took my brother in law and I quite awhile to move if off the pit several weeks ago. I guess that bear must have won a contest of will after our encounter. Funny thing is that the township guy said they shot the bear first with rubber bullets, which didn't work. The real bullets did. Rubber bullets? Wonder what they were thinking and how'd you tell if they didn't work? Sounds about as good as relocation. Something else that doesn't work.


....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-26          60139

Acz, Yeah you sure are right about the 30-30. I guess I just never thought of it as a bear gun but considering there have been more than a few taken by bow and arrow I'm sure it would do. The last time I was in Alaska the big push was away from pepper spray and towrds a sort of flare gun kit. Tom, lol, I though the folks in our area were the only ones who tried stupid stuff like shooting bears with rubber bullets. Nothing like really getting the old boy riled up ! I am thankfull that at least when they relocate the trouble makers here they tag their ears. That way at least I know right from the start I am dealing with a former inmate. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-07-26          60144

Pepper spray is being billed here as far from 100% effective as well. I just as soon have some as not. I most of all rather know how to avoid needing it. As a volunteer fire fighter I'm not sure I care for the idea of flare guns but I probably don't understand how they actually work.

Few of our relocated bear are actually aggressive. It's just that they've connected humans and food and lost their fear. You can't get rid of them. Main thing is to keep food (including toothpaste and dishes) well separated from the camp. Also watch out for the little bear. Make some noise in the bush and mom usually will chase them up a tree and then will be a little calmer about things. Just back up and give'um space. No guarantees, but bear will stand up and they do make mock charges without actually attacking. A really serious one huffs and swats the ground. That's a sure sign to back up. I haven't seen this but I have seen a mock charge.

It sounds like it should be a good trip and I wouldn't worry too much about bear. It's mostly about food. I would keep in mind that trying to get a bear to do what it doesn't want to and hunting them are different things. I have pretty good luck with the former and having to deal with 300 lbs. of dead bear would probably take the enjoyment out of a bush trip for me.

We're in an area where the relocated bear are dumped but our bear population had been fairly constant. Tracking studies indicate that bear 3 years and older almost always go back where they came from even from over a hundred miles. That may be so but we can't tell our own bear from the imports. Government cut backs and there's not enough vets to knock them out so they can be tagged. Duh!
....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-27          60179

This is a little off topic but funny any how. Yesterday I went to my hunting property to play on the tractor and I had some materials delivered to level a spot for the new blind. In the middle of my field there is a older conifer that I have cut the bottom branches off. This is usually where I sit and take my break becuase I am usually too lazy to go beck to camp and sit at the pic nic table. Yesterday I go over to my spot for a nice afternoon snooze and I notice one of the branch nubs has fur all over it stuck in the pitch. I look down and sure enough That big old bear took a dump right in MY spot !...Scratching his back at the same time. LOL. now thats some trick. I guess it definatively answers the perverbial question. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-07-27          60185

I got the 12 ga. Rem. 870 out last night and put the slug barrel on it. It is just a short cylinder bore barrel with rifle sights on it. I also collected up some random buckshot and slug loads.

I have some "bird bombs" that I will take with me. They are like a big firecrackers that can be shot in the 12 ga. They go out about a hundred yards and make a big boom and a flash. This may be useful in scaring away some bears. I would think that these would work better then flares, but aren't good for anything in close.

I have a flare pistol, but I am worried about shooting it because of the fire danger. It has been so dry in the west this year that nearly anything will light it up. Years ago, I was in an old open pit mine called the Vulcan mine where a friend of mine and I were shooting. It was very barren as most of these old mines are. There was one little patch of grass and bushes about ten feet in diameter in the whole pit. My friend was trying out a flare gun, and sure enough, the wind took the burning flare into the only vegetation around for two hundred yards and it went up like a tinder box. This situation resulted in no consequential damage, but the same thing in a forest would be disasterous. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-07-27          60190

410 slugs: usually in the 90 grain class and pretty fast, 1200+ FPS, so they are like shooting a 357 with light, soft lead slugs. NOT bear medicine.

My brother has used them very effectively on large feral dogs that were killing his geese.

Hunting requires different logistics than personal protection. The biggest bear in the world will die right now when you put a non-expanding 357 slug in his head, but only a fool would go hunting with that combo if there was something else available.

Carry what you are most comfortable with under stress. Lower 48 predators are just not big enough or tough enough to require anything bigger than a 44 magnum for protection.

I think your 10 mm would do fine with non expanding bullets, especially if you are comfortable with the gun. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-07-27          60192

We always carried a 12 gauge with shot in it for protection. If we were swamping new roads we alway brought the dogs for look out and warning.
With a large bear a high powered rifle can be false protection. If he puts his head down and comes at you there is little to shoot at. Friends that have taken head shots and do to the skull thickness and low angle of the skull they had it graze off without the bear loosing a step. This could also be a problem with the 2 legged intruders you are talking about. The muscle on the chest of a bear is hard to penetrate and without a clean shot will not necessarily stop him.
With the shot you could always stop him if he got to close and make a lot of noise if he was at a distance.
It is best not to attract the bear, but it is sometimes difficult to determine what will attract them. I have spent days playing hide and seek with my chainsaw oil and gas. Trying to find a location that they won't sniff it out and eat the oil. Just say no to bacon!!!
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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-07-27          60193

We always carried a 12 gauge with shot in it for protection. If we were swamping new roads we alway brought the dogs for look out and warning.
With a large bear a high powered rifle can be false protection. If he puts his head down and comes at you there is little to shoot at. Friends that have taken head shots and do to the skull thickness and low angle of the skull they had it graze off without the bear loosing a step. This could also be a problem with the 2 legged intruders you are talking about. The muscle on the chest of a bear is hard to penetrate and without a clean shot will not necessarily stop him.
With the shot you could always stop him if he got to close and make a lot of noise if he was at a distance.
It is best not to attract the bear, but it is sometimes difficult to determine what will attract them. I have spent days playing hide and seek with my chainsaw oil and gas. Trying to find a location that they won't sniff it out and eat the oil. Just say no to bacon!!!
....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-27          60216

I think the bear repellant I was talking about is not actually a flare gun I just meant to say it looked like one. I think they were approved and sold by the Alaskan DNR or equivelant. I had a budy who had made a zip type gun that shot bird bombs about 25 yards. It was pretty cool and very effective. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-07-29          60397

I was getting stuff ready for my trip last night and I was digging through a big box of shotgun shells. I cannot believe I have so many different odd lots of buckshot and slugs. I guess that it is like spare change; I use one or two and then drop the rest in a box. Eventually the box gets heavy and I start sorting it out.

I have a clip full of heavy solid bullets loaded up for the Glock 20 which is 10mm. This is a gun that I am used to packing around and I can hit very reliably with it.

On a lighter note, I also got out the astronomical telescope to do a little star gazing. It should be very dark out there and should make for good viewing. There will be a full moon, which is also amazing to look at through the scope.

I don't leave for another week or so, but I have another business trip between now and then. I will post a picture or two of the trip when I get back Utah. ....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-07-29          60407

Dont ya just love junk drawers. It always kinda fun to see all the junk you have saved. The only thing I dont like ios when I buy something I already have. Sounds like a fun trip. Will look forward to some good photos. ....

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