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Guns for self defense part Two

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59135

Does or has anyone here ever owned one of the derringers that shoot 410 shells ? I have also seen tiny 22's that look like revolvers. I guess I should have called this strand " smallest CCW possible."

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59139

I think referring to the "belt buckle pistols" they are really small and actually mount to a western style belt buckle. They are also REAL dangerous as they have NO trigger guard. DOC, if you want a great pocket pistol, buy a Walther PP in 32 ACP. Great pistols that take less room than a wallet. ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-08          59145

My brother has the Walther PP in 32 and loves it. He hasn't carried anything else since he bought it. correction: After e-mailing my brother it is not a Walther that he has, but a North American Arms .32 Black and Gold he tells me it's smaller than the PP. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59146

I just got rid of a Walther that was a totall piece of #%^ ! It was one of the new ones made by smith for Walther (PPKS). I see no benefit of the 32 when the 380 is essentially the same size. I wouldnt exactly call either of theese real small (heavy). I do remember some small Colts though they are no longer made. Kel tec makes a tiny 32 but it would probably make my junk bin real quick too. I need to find a small 22 for concealed carry in the summer. I do like the older WEalthers as they are real pieces of work but I would not subject one to daily carry, too large for what I am after now anyhow. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-07-08          59149

The Beretta Model 21 in 22 Long Rifle might be what you're looking for, Doc. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59152

Billy, as much as I love Berreta firearms the model 21 is in my opinion a very poor choice for anyone for a self defense weapon. This is do to cycleing problems from the cartridge rim. Likely a problem in any 22 auto. The beretta is probably the best of the bunch though. Even a 22 revolver is bigger than what I want. I am really after a 22 mag double barrel derringer with 2" barrels. ....

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Billy
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2003-07-08          59154

My cousin has one and really likes it. He's never had any problems with it.

If you're wanting a derringer, you might look into an American Derringer. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59159

Doc, the Walther PP and the PPKS are two different pistols. The PP was a standard issue automatic pistol for the German Polizei. In fact the one I have is a retired German Polizei pistol in very good condition. Very well made, never had a jam. The 32 ACP actually has more penetrating power than the 380 or 9mm Kurz. (9mm short) If you want a .22 pistol, go with the Walther TPH in stainless. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59167

Chief, Each model is different but that is somewhat moot as they are all clones or discontinued now. The model you mentioned is not current production. The 60's production german poluice models are indeed nice as well as the Nazi ones if you dont mind the history. As far as the 32 haveing more Power than the 380 we could probably debate that to infinity but haveing owned several of both I dont think you would ever convince me of that based on experience. The older non-USA Walthers were top quality no argument there. I have owned several but their value went up so high I sold all of them and gladly took the money. Again I would seriously hope that anyone who is ever considering a automatic .22 for PD take the time to talk to a competent gunsmith. There is no doubt in my mind they would tell you that they would never put their life behind any thing that is that mechanicly prone to failure. The walther 22 might be fun to play with but is hardly a pd weapon. The .32 is anemic at best in my opinion but it is the smallest choice that is at all realistic in a center fire pistol cartridge which gives the reliability (maybe) of cycleing properly. Again I do not use automatics of this class. Long experience has shone me they are all prone to jamming and failures. In a CW this small a revolver is the only choice reliable enough to make it in my pocket. Not saying it wont work for others but not for me thanx. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59170

Doc, let me caution you as to what you ask for. I see your opening post asking about the derringer that fires .410 shells. These weapons are very effective at close range and also have an equally nasty recoil/muzzle flip. I have such a weapon that I use for home/self defense. I am an experienced and (not tootin' my own horn here) expert shooter. I am 6'2 and about 235 lbs. and the muzzle flip from this pistol is VERY stout even for me, but I am aware of what's coming when I squeeze the loud lever. This particular pistol is a a Smith & Wesson Model 629-2 stainless steel.44 Magnum with a 3 inch barrel, and goncalvo grips. Very good piece that brings ALOT of power to the table but can be over whelming in the wrong hands in terms of muzzle flip. I allowed a friend who is also an experienced and I would say expert to fire it and he fired one shot and handed back to me and said the muzzle flip nearly put the trigger into his forehead. A derringer firing a .410 shell would most likely be even worse in this department. Just don't want to see you get something that you are not going to be happy with. In my case, this particular pistol can be tamed down a good bit with .44 Special ammo. You make be in the market for something like a Smith & Wesson Chief of Police Special; real nice 5 shotter that can take the occasional +P .38 round, recessed trigger hammer, and i believe a 1 3/4 inch barrel. (I may be wrong on the barrel) Very effective, much more easy on the shooter, and just a great general all round pocket pistol. For the wife the Lady Smith is even smaller. Anyhow, some like choclate & some like vanilla. Gotta go with what meets your taste and needs. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59171

Chief, atctually what I am looking for is a very small .22 either single shot or derringer but no autos. The earlier Walthers are just way too valuable to use as a daily beater and I do not believe in autos smaller than .380. The Smith Chief special (model 29) is a very stout gun and not at all what I would consider concealed carry but that is very subjective. I had one in 357. about 30 oz. very comfortable to shoot, no need to put 38's in that one unless you just want to save $ on ammo. I already have a smith 360PD Ti Hi Vis with laser grips in 38+p. Let me tell ya friend, Its a beast and a half. At 15oz when you light her up with +P's you WILL feel the power. lol. Even with mild target loads it is painfull. The weight is nice but I am after something for the summer that is a little easier to conceal. The lady smiths dont offer mutch other than a smaller grip. I might look at smith revolvers in 22 but I doubt they will be much smaller than the 38. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59174

LOL!!!! Doc, I think what you want is a zip gun. REAL concielable. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59176

Now your getting closer. Just add a safety and a serial #. Something thike the smith .22 in a single shot so we can dispense with the cylinder, or like I said A double barrel derringer with 1 7/8" barrels. The american Derringer is too bulky. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-07-08          59183

High standard made a very compact 2 bbl derringer about 20 years ago in 22LR & Mag.

Several of my compatriots carried them as last ditch back-ups. It had a unique double action trigger that auto-rotated between the barrels.

Check Guns America, they have several listed (with pics) at good prices. This is exactly what you want.

....


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DRankin
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2003-07-08          59184

"I just got rid of a Walther that was a totall piece of #%^! "
Pride Of Spain? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-09          59189

Mark, Pride of spain...indeed. Can you spell J U N K ?? lol. Thanx for the tip I will take a look right now. That I believe IS EXACTLY what I am looking for. Many Thanx, Dave ....

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tracer
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-09          59203

Doc
If you can find one a Colt Pocketlite in.380 is , I have found, a reliable shooter with corbon loads. Its what I carry.
Tracer ....

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drcjv.
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2003-07-09          59210

Doc, summer does present a problem for concealment. I normally carry an H&K USP .40 which is an awesome handgun but hard to hide in shorts and tank top. I have an AMC back-up .380 which is small and light enough to put in your pocket, it does not have sights or hammer to get caught in your pocket. I also have a wallet holster for it which fits just like a wallet in your back pocket. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-10          59229

I am not familiar with AMC. Do they have a web site ? Tracer, The colts are VERY nice but getting pricy and hard to find. I am looking and I have a couple of inquiries out on the 22 Mark mentioned. ....

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drcjv.
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2003-07-10          59235

Doc, sorry I hit the wrong key my gun is an AMT Back-up not AMC. I am not sure if they have a website. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-10          59255

Doc, AMT is short for Arcadia Machine & Tool. They make among other things guns. I have a pair of twins AMT Hardballer Longslides. Not very conceilable but sweet shooting puppies once you get the sear broken in; they are kinda stiff when new. I couple hundred rounds loosens them right up. Their .380 is of similar quality; all stainless. Based on Colt models; only thing that sucks with these model but is easily fixed is the magazines. The magazines are really flimzy; just replace with a better quality mag. I am not sure on this but I thought that AMT went out of business a long time ago. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-10          59298

I'll have to see if I can find a listing for one of theese on Gunsamerica. Thanx ! ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-07-10          59301

To the best of my knowledge AMT is still in business. I have an AMT AUTOMAG II, (22 magnum) with a 6 inch barrel. It shoots fine but hard on the ears.

....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-10          59306

Although they are not quite as small as the little 22s, I have a Beretta Tomcat in .32 that I like. I also have an early model AMT .380 Backup. These guns are what I would consider the minimum for self defense. They are small but effective with well placed shots.

My choice for CCW is a Glock 27 with a .357 Sig barrel. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-10          59317

True confessions time.

Maybe it has to do with my size, but when I was packing iron for a living my favorite off duty guns were a S&W 1955 Target, a Smith&Wesson 1950 Army and a rebuilt (by your truly of course) Smith&Wesson 1917.

All, of course, were chambered in 45 ACP and fed with full moon or 1/3 moon clips.

I packed them in an out of print DeSantis cross-draw in-the-belt rig. In winter months I wore a vest and in summer a short sleeved shirt with the tails out concealed it quite well.

It was so effective the the only way my wife could tell if I was packing was to pat me down, and so comfortable that I would forget to take it off while I was mowing the lawn.

But that also may have had something to do with the fact that I had arrested people in my own front yard.

I am mostly glad those days are over. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-11          59323

ACz, I like the little berettas as well. They are quality pieces. I just cant think of anything good to say about a .32 other than it should cycle properly Vs a 22 auto. In fact I really cant think of any situation where a .32 would be better than a .380 . Everyone has an opinion but I personally consider the 380 the smallest centerfire auto caliber for self defense. I will take a 22 over a 32 any day. I'd probably rather throw rocks than carry a 25 auto, lol. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-07-11          59329

When I was looking for a pistol for 'boat retention' purposes I did as was suggested here, I went and spoke to the local gunsmith, a wise old fart who maintained all the weapons for the local PD and most of the areas serious shooters.

His advice was to get something light and reliable and not be as concerned with size as much as weight and reliability. Stopping power was not as much of a concern as accuracy, as has been mentioned already a bazooka wont stop anything if you cant hit it.

He recomended, and I bought a S & W 422, it is a 'full size' semi-auto unit, mostly aluminum and synthetic, good for a marine environment and for reducing weight. It's not going to stop an elephant, but I can empty that 10 + 1 load of 22 LR's into a 12" circle at 25" as fast as I can pull the trigger because of the almost total lack of recoil.

I'm thinking someone with 11 hot 22 hollow points in their chest cavity is going to have a serious bouyancy and or shark problem trying to swim away from MY boat...

Best of luck. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-11          59332

You might be suprised at what a 22 can bring down. I always avoided hand guns on the boat but I did have a ruger mini 30 SS. I would not have been nearly so kind to the scoundels you mentioned, lest they prey on someone else ill prepared. In my minds eye the debate ends when I am convinced I know the other partys intent, and its a BIG ocean. What the 22 lacks for in other areas it makes up in velocity and trajectory. The real problem I have with center fire cartridges smaller than the .380 is that the bullets drop like a dead fly out of the barrel. If I ever was going to even consider a 32 auto or 22 auto it would be one of the small berretas that have been mentioned. I am personally not comfortable relying on either for a concealed carry weapon, Other than that I like them all. ....

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Murf
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2003-07-11          59348

On general principle I agree completely with you Doc, my first choice WAS a long gun. The problem was two-fold.

First a long gun is not always at hand and sometimes just the sight of a firearm in a holster causes an instant rethink in 'spectators', it has happened twice so far, and a big part of the attraction to Island hopping is the interaction with the locals (fresh fruits, vegetables and seafood is a real nice treat).

Secondly, and just as important, is the matter of stowage, on a high speed canoe like mine things have to be nearly welded in place to prevent movement. If you have never hit a rogue wave at 80 mph, let me tell you, it's... exhilerating... as my wife puts it "They just don't make sports bras strong enough for that!!!"

Best of luck.
....

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Chief
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2003-07-11          59353

Murf, what are you running on the water that will do 80 mph with passengers and goodies? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-11          59354

I hear ya murf, lol. I didnt have that porblem on the old sea ray. 12' beam kinda slows things down a bit. The Fountain I test drove was rated at 70 mph with twin 250 outboards, My knads start to shrivel about 65 which was right about where we pushed her. I have hit a rogue wave, no fun at any speed, Even in a 58 footer with a flying bridge I could hear swearing in the cabin from the capt. Then there was the day the boat got hit by lightning. I swear he came out of the top which is at least 15' up with out touching more than two stairs, then there was the water spouts. Twin 1100 hp Detroits do help with a real KICK ! and everyone was thankfull for them that day. Sadly it ended the best day of Blackfin tuna fishing on the humps ever. ....

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Murf
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2003-07-11          59359

Chief, it's a 42' Fountain Lightning, 80 mph is just fast cruising.

I got radared in a poker run just north of Art & Cutter last summer on Lake Ontario at 112 mph with 4 (VERY nervous) people and over 100 gallons of fuel onboard.

I can relate to the knads beating a hasty retreat though, we joke about the drop bottom bolster seats, they're function is to stop the little fellas being driven up into your tonsils.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-11          59360

I was thinking that it had to be a Fountain of some sort. What are you running triple 572's? Bet you can just literally watch the gas gauge go down when the loud levers are all the way forward. What kinda drives you running????? You gotta post some pics! Bet I ever got out my rig was 46 mph and that was with all the passengers farting, flapping their arms, tail wind, and the fish pushing us. Only did that one time just to check out a new prop. I usually just cruise at about 3200 rpm and that is just fine and relaxing and she does about 28 mph. I run a 16" x 16" aluminum prop and that is about the limit before over propping. Anything over 50 where there are collidable objects in or on the water it too much white knuckle boating for me. Got enough of the white knuckle stuff in the Army flying helicopters. Having over 3,800 shaft hp. strapped to your butt has some interesting moments over time. :-O ....

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Murf
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2003-07-11          59363

Chief, the 42' is only twins, and staggers at that (my preference anyways), you have to go to a 47' before you get to triples, they have a slightly wider beam, mine is only 8'6" wide which was a requirement for me for trailering it between ride sites and for the north / south trips.

I run two 504ci Fords (limited to 5600 rpm) into a pair of #6 Speedmaster dry sump drives (135 gears) which spin a pair of 4 blade cleavers.

White knuckles are a way of life...

Best of luck. ....

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