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Bill
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2001-10-27          32699

I was going to buy a Ford 1700. 2 cylinder dieselwith 4WD. I wanted to be sure the 4WD worked so I ran the bucket into a pile of dirt, lifted the front end off the ground, and spun the rear wheels, expecting to see the front wheels turn. Nothing happened. I don't know if this is an operator problem or a 4WD Problem. Any one out there understand how this thing should work ? Many thanks!

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Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2001-10-27          32701

You are correct that the fronts should be turning when you do what you described....but the truth is that it is hard to tell by looking if they are turning under power or not when the front end is up. For one thing, when the front end is up in the air then only one tire will be turning, and which one it is will shift back and forth. It can be hard to tell if you are in 4wd. The 4wd engagement levers also have a distressing habit of falling out of engagement without your noticing.
I can always tell if I am in 4wd when I go up my steep dry dirt driveway carrying the FEL bucket full of sand. In 2wd it will go up a ways and then start to spin the rear tires. In 4wd it will walk up without spinning a tire at all. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-10-28          32704

The 4wd always is engaged when the tractor is stopped. The clutch is pushed in and the 4wd lever is gently pulled up. The lever travels upward a few inches and there is a definite feeling that something engaged. If the drive won't engage easily, the clutch can be 'tickled' with the TX in gear to realign the differential gear. If engagement is still difficult, the front wheels can be lifted with the loader to release any front axle wind-up. If the 4wd lever travels more than a few inches or if there is no 'clunk' of engagement, then the linkage probably is gone. Otherwise, the drive end probably is the problem.

I suspected the 4wd on my 1710 wasn't working when the tractor wouldn't pull a box scraper doing light ditching touch-up work. I verified it was shot by putting the loader bucket against a big tree and letting the wheels spin a bit in low gear and at low idle rpm. I couldn't see either front wheel spin, and there weren’t any tire marks under the front wheels. Turned out the linkage was broken at the differential end due to DPO abuse. The abuse should have been obvious when I bought the tractor since the 4wh lever had been welded back onto its collar (crappy weld too), but I probably would have bought the tractor even if I noticed.

In my case, the 4wd lever moved almost to a vertical position. There was the feeling of 'parts working' but no engagement 'clunk.' If the lever had entirely 'free-wheeled,' I would have suspected the linkage was disconnected near the top and considered taking off the TX top-cover for a look (a new gasket would have been needed). However, the feel was that most of the linkage was connected and I'm not set up to do major tear-downs, so off it went to the dealer. Assuming the 1700 is similar to my 1710: Most 4wd failures create sizable repair bills. Not much is accessible without a considerable tear-down. The differential assembly has to be removed to access most of the linkage, and the front end has to be removed to access the drive end. It was a sizable repair bill.
....

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Bill
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2001-10-28          32708

Tom,
Thanks for the quick response. My 4WD lever moves up about 2 to 3 inches. It has a "detent" feeling but no real engagement "clunk". I will now try tickling the clutch a little while in gear and see if I can get an engagement. I figured anything to do with repairing the 4WD would be big $.
Appreciate your help.
Bill ....

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Bill
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2001-10-28          32709

Roger,
Thanks for the fast response. I had the feeling that my "test" wasn't the best way to check the 4WD. However, I had neither wheel turning. Might have gotten better resjults if I had tried to hold one. A full bucket of sand woulld probably be enough to lift the weight off the back end and it should slip pretty easy. That will be my next attempt.
Appreciate your help.
Bill ....

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Roger L.
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2001-10-28          32710

One of my Yanmars has a slight mechanical feeling to the 4wd engagement lever and the other one doesn't. On the one which doesn't, I can throw the lever with one finger and it might as well be connected to a marshmallow for all the "feeling" it has. Certainly it doesn't make any clunk coming in or out of 4wd. Nor is tickling the clutch necessary to make it go either way. In fact on that tractor you can move the lever back and forth pretty much as you wish regardless of what the tractor is doing and the only result is that the front tires begin to drive or not.
On the other tractor I can tell when the 4wd lever is engaged by the "feel" of the lever as it moves the gears. If I am real rough with it I can make it lurch or grind....but if you just let up on the throttle it shifts easily.
On either tractor I usually have to look at the position of the lever to make sure if I'm in 4wd or not....or like I said it is obvious when doing certain types of work.
If I really wanted to find out for sure if 4wd was working or not, I'd put the rear on blocks so that the rear tires were a few inches in the air. Then I'd gingerly see if the fronts would pull the tractor off the blocks. ....

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Bill
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2001-10-28          32711

Roger,
Blocking the rear wheels up a little sounds like a good test for the FWD.
That will be one the next tries.
Thanks.
Bill ....

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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2001-10-28          32713

Put loader flat on ground, lift front-end off ground, back up as if you were leveling gravel, if its in 4wd the front tires will be turning. David ....

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Bill
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2001-10-28          32714

David,
Thank you. I am getting an education on Ford tractors. Does your method work on all 4WD rigs or just this type? I guess this type is called assisted 4WD.
Either way, this is a simple test and I'll give it a shot.
Thanks again.
Bill ....

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Roger L.
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2001-10-28          32719

I just thought of a possible problem with any method that involves lifting the front end and seeing if the front tires are turning. Suppose that there was a broken front drive shaft. The broken ends of the shaft might still be capable of rotating the tires when there wasn't a load on them, but not when they should be pulling the tractor. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-10-29          32723

Yes, it's fair to say that the feel when my 1710 4wd engages is somewhere in-between a detent and a clunk--nothing like engaging the overdrive on an old Ford 1/2 ton automatic when going downhill, but something definite never the less. Roger's comment about the possibility of the front wheels able to turn when not under a load is a good thing to note. The first time I broke a shear pin on my post-hole auger, I heard a snap and it stopped digging. I pulled it out of the hole but figured it must be all right because it was still turning. I imagine there are many things in the front drive in addition to the drive-shaft that could result in something similar. A test under load is a good idea, and trying something that you know the tractor can't do without 4wd is a good test. Without familiarity with the tractor, my 'tree-test' (seeing if the either front wheel burrows with the loader against a tree) or dragging the rear axles off blocks each are tests that place load on the front. ....

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Bird Senter
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2001-10-29          32725

Why not just lift both front wheels off the ground with the 4WD engaged, and engine off, and get a helper so you have a person on each side and they both try to turn the front wheels forward (or backward) at the same time? Seems to me it should be pretty easy to tell whether it's actually working that way, because they won't be able to turn the wheels if it isn't, and if they can turn the wheels, but feel or hear something grinding, wouldn't they be able to trace it to see where it's broken? ....

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Bill
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2001-10-29          32729

I'll give it a try, but somewhere along the line I was told that the rear wheels have to slip 5 degrees before the front drive connects. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Thanks for your help.
Bill ....

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Bill
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2001-10-29          32730

Thanks again Tom. I agree, an under load test would be the best method. I'll get back to it in the next couple of days and see what happens. I couldn't prove the 4WD was working or not, but I had the strong feeling that there might be an operator problem.
Bill ....

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Tom
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2001-10-29          32740

Try hooking a rope from the tractor to a tree,that will tell you
if it's working .
Tom ....

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Bill
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2001-10-29          32742

Thanks Tom.
If the tree comes down, I'll assume the 4WD is working.
Seriously, I get your point. That will be another good test under load.
Bill
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cutter
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2001-10-29          32743

Engage the FWD and try a K turn followed by a 360 on pavement. The steering wheel should tell the story. Good stress test too. ....

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Bill
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2001-10-29          32745

Cutter,
This thing has power steering and is incredibly easy to turn. Almost too easy.
I can handle the 360 but am not familiar with a K turn. As I'm typing this I think I figured it out. What sort of reaction can I expect from the steering?
Thanks Cutter.
Bill ....

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cutter
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2001-10-29          32747

Bill, if the FWD is locked in, you should experience a good deal of jerking and tugging on the wheel as well as tire scrubbing. The pavement will not easily allow the wheels to unload the torque built up by unequal tire rotations created by the turning. ....

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Bill
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2001-10-29          32748

Thanks Cutter. I'll give it a shot.
Bill ....

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TomG
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2001-10-30          32767

Yep, and Cutter's test is a good illustration why it's not good to use 4wd on hard surfaces--especially with weight in the loader bucket. For similar reasons, some people think that using tire chains on front wheels only isn’t good. However, other people say they’ve been using them for years without problems. ....

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Randy
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2001-10-30          32790

I looked at a 1710 before purchasing my Kubota. My brother is a mechanic at the NH dealership and one of the questions I asked him about the 1710 was how sturdy was the front drive shaft and the 4WD drive components. He said the drive shafts don't usually have too many problems but the drive coupling in the front between the drive shaft and the dif. is the item that usually is the problem when 4WD does not operate. From what he described it is not much more than an internal splined tube. Sometimes when they break there is just enough connection left so that when you raise the front wheels they may turn because there is no resistance. I asked how much of a job is it to replace the coupling, he said some models are easy and some are not.

Hope your problem is simple.

Randy ....

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Bill
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2001-10-30          32796

Randy,
Based on what I have learned from the knowledgable guys on this tractor chat line, I agree with you 100%. A load test is the only way to go.
Thanks for your input.
Bill ....

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TomG
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2001-10-31          32807

Randy: There was a comment sometime back from an engineer who shared your brother's views. He gave some specifics about why he considered the coupling a bad engineering design. He also said owners (I forget if it was 1700's or 1710's) should sell them immediately. Well, I don't know, I sort of like my 1710 and think I'll hang onto it--theoretical warts and all. ....

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Randy
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2001-10-31          32863

Tom,

This coupling wasn't identified as a flaw in the design. It is better for an expensive part to wear out or fail than it is for an expensive hard to replace assembly to go. My brother has been a mechanic for this dealership for about 10 years over that time I have asked many questions about the Ford/NH compacts. I do not remember any negitive things or warts about the 1700, 1900, and 2100 series tractors.

The only thing that coems to mind is a friend of mine has a 1910 that needed some expensive engine work because when he was brush hogging a branch must have hit the cooling system petcock. This allowed it to vibrate open and he lost
the coolant. Having owner the tractor for a long time he didn't pay any
attention to the temp. gauge and over heated the engine. This is just one of those freak things that can happen.

Randy ....

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