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3 PT PTO driven winch

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tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2004-02-07          76234

I'm building a 3 pt pto driven winch that is using a worm gear driven winch drum. Going to using this to skid logs up a hill. I got a few questions. What would be a good feet per minute speed for the cable? Right now with the ratio I have it will be 10 FPM at 1400 engine rpm's. and 22 FPM at 3050 engine rpm's which is 540 PTO rpm's. Does this sound good? I have seen speeds as slow as 3 FPM and as high as 40 FPM? Log skidders FPM can go over 100 FPM. Question #2; The standard store bought winches talk about 8000 - 10000 pounds of pull on a 5/16 cable, the breaking strenght of this cable is 9800 pounds. Anyone have any idea why or how they can spec the winch for these loads ratings?

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blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-07          76244

I think there's a LOT of creative advertising in the 4x4/atv winch products. Some ads equate pulling power to the weight of the 'rolling load', which is very deceptive. If some of these winches really had the capacity they claimed, there'd be an awful number of amputees around.
Please don't take me wrong, but you're beginning a very dangerous project. Small winches like the Farmi come with remote winch controllers, guards, slip clutches, stabilizers; cable and fittings appropriate to the load. It could cost more to build one unless you have a real good source of parts. If you damage the PTO or yourself, the cost easily could exceed a new winch.
Good Luck, bliz ....

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Art White
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2004-02-07          76267

There is a lot of difference in speed as well as strength from an empty drum vs a full drum. ....

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earthwrks
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2004-02-08          76339

Having been an avid off-roader, the higher-end Warn, Ramsey, Superwinch etc. winches are rated for actual pull/lift, not "rolling loads" which can be a fraction of the rating. Boat winches however ARE rated for floating (rolling) loads. Wire rope cable is typically rated by a factor of 3 - 4 times LESS than it is advertised for safety. Typically what you are looking at is "working load" not "breaking strength" as there are many factors that could be represented by breaking strength--such as shock loads versus having a load hanging from it, say from a crane, and the like.

Rather than go with a PTO drive why not use a hydraulic motor (used about $100-$300---get one off a wrecker/tow truck) powered off the rear remotes. Then you can get torque AND speed when you need it. There are hydraulic winches used on Jeeps that run off the power steering pump (Milemarker is one maker---I think they are in Florida).

For cost savings you might want to consider using a type of winch used on ships called a "capstan". This is a drum that you wind the rope around a few times. As it rotates constantly you control how fast the line speed is by pulling on the free end (loose end) of the rope (friction causes the rope to wind). That way you don't need a take-up drum (which you can still do but it could be a non-powered reel instead). You can use as many feet of rope you can haul because it doesn't store on the capstan. The only downfall with capstans is there no direct braking of the rope unless you tie it off to something. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-02-09          76406

Some general thoughts are that what's reasonable for speed depends on the pto hp. It could be estimated by the load and final gear ratio including drum diameter at pto rpm, which likely is where the pto hp is speced for the tractor. I can't get my head around everything that would be needed or the particular formula this morning.

Cable comes in all sorts of different types and grades and 9800 lbs. nominal strength is typical for garden variety 5/16th IPS cable--I don't know what IPS means and fiber core is rated less. A type of cable called rotary swaged is common in logging since it has good crush and abrasion characteristics but it can't be used with swivels.

It sounds like a winch rated for 10,000 lbs. pull would break that cable before breaking the winch. that doesn't sound like a good idea since snapped cable flies around. I've heard more extreme differences between nominal strength and working load ratings than Green mentioned but it's the same idea. Working loads of 20% are fairly common I think and something in the design would have to limit the pull to something realistic.

I imagine the winch would have a butt-plate that can be assumed immovable under load but I'd worry about the top-link bracket's ability to withstand tension produced by a winch of that rating. ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-09          76417

Lots of different wire rope construction. IPS is Improved Plow Steel, there is also XIPS and XXIPS (eXtra Improved) available. The 3/8" cable Farmi uses is rated 13,110 lbs breaking (nominal) strength.
For crane service working load is usually nominal/3.5 , if an anti-rotation type rope is used divide by 5 instead of 3.5
Here's a link that has prices.
bliz
....


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shortmagnum
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2004-02-09          76427

One thing you might consider is what the old timers called a cable jammer. My brother still uses one on his JD 350 crawler. The cable winch drum is attached to a truck brake drum. The inner part of the brake (holding the brake shoes and the slave cylinders) that is usually stationary is constantly turning. There is about a 10 to 1 reduction in PTO speed by chain drive. Pulling a lever attached to a brake master cylinder pushes the brake shoes into contact with the brake drum which turns the winch drum. If you let go, the brake shoes release and it stops winching. Also when you are not pulling on the lever the winch free wheels for you to pull the cable. It's actually relatively safe. You can stand off to the side to operate it. ....

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TomG
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2004-02-10          76504

I haven't heard of a jammer. It sounds like one of the good old ideas that still work just fine.

Thanks Bliz 'improved plow steel' now why didn't know that? I really did a web search on IPS and came up with a bunch of computer stuff. Yes my 20%, or divide by 5, figure did come from a table for non-rotating cable.

For estimating realistic draw rates, I'd solve for torque given the tractor's pro HP and 540 rpm. I think that's torque = 5252HP/540 but memory and early mornings don't always go together. I'd then multiply that torque by the final gear ratio of the winch drive with a full spool reduced by a guess for loss. That should give torque at the spool. RPM times the gear ratio would give spool rpm. The spool circumference at that speed would give the draw rate. I think that's a decent way to get an idea of the max performance to expect. Lower winch gering would give stronger pulls but at slower rates. ....

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Ym1110d
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22 Wisconsin
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2005-10-26          118475

Pardon me for dragging up a old thread.

I was driving by a farm yesterday and there was a winch for sale at the end of the driveway. $175 was the what the sign read. The farmer OFFERED to sell it for $100. Sold! The winch is totally complete with frame, cable and a capstan drum! The winch appears to be a 20,000 lb unit by Tulsa. Max input speed is 600rpm. Static torque input is 5,304 inlbs. The winch weighs around 500lbs. So I'd like to mount it on a 3pt hitch. I can put a 540rpm pto shaft right on the winch which will give me the correct speed and direction. The question is if my tractor has enough power to turn the winch. I only have 13pto hp at full throttle. Now I do have a 3speed pto (540, 750, 1200) but the other speeds are faster so there will be no mechanical advantage unless I use a chain drive reduction. Using a speed reducer will work ok with my current tractor but any other tractor will result in slow pull speeds. Thoughts? ....


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Chief
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2005-10-26          118477

I think you got a smokin' deal on the wench but what you are proposing to do in my opinion is just too much for your Yanmar to accomplish. (this is unless you plan to mount this wench to a MUCH larger tractor) ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-10-26          118479

From the schematics it looks like the winch is made to run off a hydraulic motor. You should be able to estimate the output force by using the torque available from your PTO as a fraction of the 5300 in lbs (440 ft lbs) used to create the 20k lbs of pull. Notice also that the more cable you put on the winch, the less linepull you get. This makes sense as the lever arm becomes longer (diameter bigger) with more cable winding.
Dave ....

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Ym1110d
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2005-10-26          118480

Well it's not what I wanted to hear, but you might be right. I was finally able to find the formual for converting HP into torque. My little 13hp tractor makes 1,517 inlb of torque in the low pto setting. To power the winch (at full rated load) I'll need a 3.5:1 speed reduction. Unfortinatly the speed difference between low (540rpm) and high (1200rpm) is only 2.2:1. Basically I can gear the winch down so it can pull it's full load, but I'll never see full line speed. Or, I can gear the winch down 2:1 and never acheive full pull. Heck, 20,000lbs of pull is alot and I'll proably never need it. Besides, it would be nice to have the engine choke off before reaching the breaking point of the winch. We havn't even addressed the weight of the winch (half the tractor weight). ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-10-26          118481

It looks like the units on the old 49 Power Wagon. I think they would run of the engine PTO. I think it is 50 lb on my Dodge Cummins. Randy might have a better memory.

I guess you could just use lighter cable which would break at 6000 lb or so before you lug the small diesel. You could also add a PTO clutch which would slip before you got into trouble. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-26          118483

The reason for my previous comments was that unless you intend to winch some very small logs at most; the weight of what may be intending to wench will outweigh your Yanmar by 3 to 5 times. Using a winch cable designed to break before the winch reaches its limits is a receipt for disaster in my opinion. A winch cable snapping under load is every loggers night mare. The winch cable does stretch to some extend and enough to cause a severe recoil upon breaking. Anyone standing in line of fire of the recoiling winch cables could be severly injured or worse. In this case, I think the weight and size of your tractor is the limiting factor unless you intend to use the winch for very light and limited duty. Not trying to be a stick in the mud....... just don't want to see anyone get injured or spend a lot of time, effort, and money in something that may not work. I have watched the log skidders winch logs up steep slopes on our property and they have difficulty using 3/4 inch log winch cable and John Deere commercial log skidders. The weights of a tree can really surprise you. Just be sure to take this into consideration. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-10-26          118485

I like the winch, I'm just not sure you why would want to drag your tractor over to a small log...... ;->

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-26          118486

LOL!!! You said exactly what I was thinking Murf. ;O) ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2005-10-26          118487

That is too funny. ....

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Ym1110d
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22 Wisconsin
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2005-10-26          118488

I understand what you are saying about the cable. I generally use Amsteel Blue for this purpose as it does not recoil when broken. You are right about the tractor weight. I was figuring on building a plow into the winch frame to pull against. Even then I'll proably have to anchor off. For right now I was just going to use the tractor as a mobile power source. To really use the winch at it's full capacity a larger tractor would definetly be needed. ....

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Peters
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2005-10-26          118489

I guess I should have said a smaller cable and a slip clutch. If you use it like a smaller winch and don't over tax your tractor I don't see the problem. A 6000 lb electric Warn will run you $550 and that is without the mount. You can put a little into it and not be hurt. I would think you would want a slip clutch on it even with a 80 hp tractor. I would not want to have a cable break with 20,000 lbs on it or lug the expensive engine. ....

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Ym1110d
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2005-10-26          118491

Being able to lug the engine isn't the worst thing out there. It's a pretty good audible indicator of what the load is. Most people will lift before choking the motor off which is much better than being suprised by a broken cable. Slip clutches are nice, but they are very hard to dial in. Shear pins are proably more reliable, but talk about a PIA!

Yea, I could see tying the winch off to a twig of a branch and using it to pull the tractor around. That's not that far out of reason. I was joking with my wife last night that I was going to mount the winch on the front of the pickup. The winch is 32" wide at the frame. Lol! ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-10-26          118495

Ym, for argument's sake, how heavy is your tractor? Also, does it have a live PTO or is it clutch controlled?
Dave ....

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Murf
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2005-10-27          118516

If your handle is an indication of your tractor it is a Yanmar 1110D....

According to the factory that tractor weighs 948 pounds.

Assuming you could get the winch mounted and working Ok, just what do you anticipate dragging around with a 13hp tractor that weighs 948 pounds ?????

It seems to me you would be better off, and a bunch safer & happier cutting the log where it drops and putting the cut pieces in a small trailer behind your Yanmar.

Best of luck. ....

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Ym1110d
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2005-10-27          118518

He's right about the weight. Just under a grand. She's a wee little thing. The tractor has a single stage clutch. For logging purposes this tractor would not make a very good choice. It doesn't have nearly enough weight or power to make a good skidding platform. But for me to drop a tree, anchor the winch (not the tractor) and pull it to a location where it is more convient to cut up is feasible. I only need a couple of cords of wood a year, so we're not talking more than a dozen trees. I also want something where if the tree is headed in the wrong direction or gets hung up I will have better control of it. ....

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Murf
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2005-10-27          118520

Uhmmmmm ......

"I also want something where if the tree is headed in the wrong direction or gets hung up I will have better control of it."

So you would put the winch cable to the tree and try to 'convince' the tree to go the other direction?

Let me put something in perspective here.

In your area I would say an 'average' tree to be cut for firewood might be, for example, a 18" DBH hardwood, an oak maybe, a tree of that diameter would likely be 75' tall.

Assuming you cut this 'sample' tree down late in the year, when the moisture content and foliage was at it's lowest, that tree would probably only weigh about 10,000 pounds.

That's about TEN times what your tractor weighs.

Even if you had the front of the tractor tied off, I'd still be concerned about ripping the tractor in half.....

Best of luck.
....

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shortmagnum
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2005-10-27          118523

Ym, With ANY tractor you probably should not try to winch any tree that you could not pull if you just chained up. Even for pole skidders that have big winches, the object is to save time by connecting a cable to felled trees without having to back a big skidder close to each tree.

Hey, you have an excuse to buy a bigger tractor to fit your winch. :)
Dave ....

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kthompson
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2005-11-23          119736

I have cut trees that weight more than a much larger tractor than the one being discussed, here that had to fall into a narrow safe area. I took cable and hooked to the tree around 20 feet or so from the ground around the ree. Then with enough cable to have tractor clear of the futherest possibly reach of falling tree pull on the tree before ever starting the cut. If the tractor was able to lean in the safe direction I would cut it. The local power company uses a small hand pulley system with about a 5/8" inch nylon rope to pull trees the same way with a person pulling the rope.

I learned to be sure it could lean the tree before ever starting the cutting. Had a tree to pull a pickup where it wanted it as Murf expressed. Due to sufficient cable length no damage, oh the house the tree hit? It did live with repairs. ....

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