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What is the right way to clean up weed root

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-09-06          145433

My land has 16 acres open area needs to prepare for farming. Right now it is full of perennial tall weeds. Try to clean up them and ready for digging ditch.

I have 2 implements now. 2 bottom plow and a 7 1/2 disk harrow. After I try them for a small area, I found it is impossible to clean up all the perennial roots. Disk can chop them down and cut most of upground leaves to small pieces.
But when I plow, all the roots stick on the plow. Then carry lots dirt on it. Within 30 feet, the plow become a sweeper. :-(

May be a brush hog can do better on cutting above ground parts, but can not do anything with the roots. Even use roundup, I don't think can help on clean up roots.
Any other implement can do it better? a landscape rake?

Thanks,


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-09-06          145434

We have this problem when clearing land too.

We use a multiple step approach, first a flail mower to cut down and mulch up anything above ground. That is followed up with a disc-type trash plow to bury as much of the debris as possible.

If that can be done in the late summer / early fall like now there will be very little left come spring, but I should point out, any seeds that were mature when buried will come up with a vengeance in the spring!!!

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2007-09-06          145435

Sounds like your plow doesn't have a coulter. That is a shank type tool mounting to the plow's frame that has a rotating disc attached to it. It is placed just ahead of the plow where the plow shears. This will cut up above ground pieces like large weeds, corn stalks, etc. giving you a clean cut and shear. Depending on what you are trying to cut up, that coulter disc should be cutting maybe an inch or 2 into the soil. Your plow should be set at a depth of about 6 to 8". With a proper set up and plow speed, the plow should flip the soil over and roots should not be a problem.

What type of vegetation are you plowing under? Is it heavy shrubs or something like that, that won't cut easily! ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-06          145437

I believe Murf and Yooper have given you good advice. I would suggest disk it one direction the best you can, wait a few days for it to dry and disk it at right angle and give it a few more days and probably a third disking and then plowing if you are having to use the implements you now have. Depending on your disk you may need to weight it down for this. Don't try to disk fast as you want the weight of the disk to keep the disk in the dirt and not just ride over the vegetation as it is more likely at higher speeds. Also play with the angle of the disk blades. More aggressive angle probably will cut better.

There is one other option if it is an option, disk around it very heavy and then burn it. Of course that works only will dried vegetation either due to frost or cutting. kt ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-09-06          145439

Thanks, Murf, yooperpete and KT. The plow do have two cutters ahead of plow. But looks didnot work right. One of them very loose can trun around easy. The depth may be not setup good too. yooperpete, they just tall weeds and some high cattails, not shrubs. I will check see if can get better result. KT, I will try to put some weight on disk too. But cannot burn anything on black dirt. ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-06          145442

kangroo, I forgot to ask earlier, if your plows are rusty (same for disk blades) the dirt does not slide on it very easy. IF you have some sandy land, you can plow that for the blades to "clean up" or get shinny and thus slick for the dirt to slide. You can also sand the plows and used oil can also help. Based upon my experienced with sticky or wet dirt you need very slick and smooth plows.

Also with bottom plows the way they are set and the speed can affect how well some dirts move and roll. kt ....

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Murf
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2007-09-06          145443

Kangaroo, one thing you mentioned brought something to mind.

The type of disks needed for this sort of work are generically called 'trash coulters' and they are either notched or fluted edge to more effectively deal with debris.

I think part of the problem might be the type of material you are trying to plow under also. As I said above, we ALWAYS start by shredding everything down as small as possible with a flail type mower FIRST.

A rotary such as a 'bush hog' style mower will work too, but not as well IMHO.

Best of luck. ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-09-06          145444

KT, the plow is brand new, but dirt is kind of wet. I do need setup the plow well. I don't have depth control on it . Or I have to wait ditch done, dirt dry enough.

Murf, may be I can use my 22" lawn mover cut quarter or half acre and test to see if it works first.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-09-06          145445

Kangaroo,

When I first moved into this place, the previous owner had abandoned most of his land and let it grow over with weeds and loads of quack grass. In addition to that mess, he had turned most of his land into a metal scrap yard, which was also covered with weeds, dirt, concrete blocks, and many small trees that had come up from seed.

I found that the best tool available to me was a subsoiler. By using this implement, I was able to find many pieces of metal that were buried in the dirt. It also cut the tree roots, and busted up the quack grass.

You're lucky, in that you don't have any metal or nails to worry about. If you drop the subsoiler into the ground, you'll be able to cut every root and break up the hard pan (severely compacted soil) without any problem.

It would be best to cut the weeds, or burn them, before using the subsoiler, as the steel drop bar will catch quite a bit of vegetation.

The other option (and this is the best method) is to spray the entire place with Round-Up and then let it sit for 14 days, until the weeds turn completely brown. The Round-Up will also kill the roots, making them much easier to cut through. After using Round-Up, you'll be able to burn off the vegetation, or easily disk it under.

A subsoiler is a small implement. It doesn't cover much ground. However, you'll be able to go pretty fast, and you'll be able to skip over 30 inches each pass. This is enough to cut through any substantial roots, so that they won't get caught up on your plow.

And I agree with Yooperpete. A coulter on your plow will be a HUGE benefit to you when breaking up new ground.

I'm not one to go out and spend a pile of money on any project. I have a middle buster, but not a subsoiler. These two implements use an identical frame, making it possible to convert one to the other. But, rather than purchase a subsoiler spike, I decided to go with a Wako Anhydrous knife. This Wako 755 knife cuts through even large roots with ease.

I had to modify my middle buster just a bit, in order to get the Wako knife to seat properly on the frame, but this was a very easy chore, requiring almost no time at all. A good metal cutting blade on a Sawzall will be able to do this job in about 5 minutes.

Here's a picture of the Wako 755 Anhydrous Fertilizer Knife. (Cut and Remove the fertilizer tube prior to installation.)

Note: Only the 755 knife will work on the middle buster, as it mounts on the front of the shank, rather than on the side.

Joel ....


Link:   Wako 755 Knife

 
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earthwrks
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2007-09-06          145449

I'd look at the attack angle of the disc axles themselves. Too aggressive, and they will plow and plug up with weedy mud. You might want to adjust them so they're not so aggressive. That might force the weeds into the ground easier and cut those weeds that it can. And you probably don't have to go down deep too far either--maybe 4-6"

Like KT says, I would go in different directions, maybe even a 45 degree angle to the last direction. Give a few days to dry out and do it again. After several times you should have nice level soil.

And a higher ground speed of the disc may help too, but don't go down too deep otherwise it will bog and start to plow and plug up. ....

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yooperpete
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2007-09-07          145468

The coulters are made to swing or povot sideways. That movement is for when it hits a stone or other hard object so it can deflect off. If your plow is not staying at depth the tips of the plow aren't set correctly to suck it down into the ground. The points should tip down. You should turn the turnbuckle of the toplink arm a little shorter and that will bring the tips down more. Too short will make the plow want to dig too much. Most plows also have a gage wheel that mounts to the frame just next to the furrow that is being cut. That stops the plow from digging in too much. Sometimes you also need to put some weight on the plow to help it dig in. That is usually the case in real dry plowing applications in clay. You mentioned it is a little wet. If it is too wet, the dirt wants to adhere to the plow. When you are done plowing, we always wipe the shiny parts of the plow with used motor oil to stop it from rusting. The anti-sway link arms should be loosened to allow your 3 point to sway. Not too much that they rub the inside walls of the rear tires. That allows the plow to seek its own direction and the tractor to guide it in a "lead" direction.

If you plow too shallow the soil will not flip. If you are plowing under allot of tall vegetation, it will not all get covered up. It will mostly decay during the winter months and can be cut up in the spring with a disk. As mentioned by the other guys, disk or mow it and "let it dry". I'm not used to working in muck. Farming is usually an "artform" best done in proper soil conditions that are semi-moist and not wet. Bone dry doesn't work well either. Sounds like you need to work on irrigation aspect as well. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-09-07          145471

Thanks Joel, EW and yooperpete again.

Joel,I believe subsoil or middle buster will do better job for roots, and that is why I think a Chisel Plow is the best tool break and swap all the waste. Brush hog to me is an one time use implement. I am not really understand how that 755 knife works. :-(

EW, angle on that disk is 0,11,22,33 I think. I try the 0,11,33. When 33, it cut more aggresive but carry lots of waste. Without waste leaves it will perfect to level the ground. I will try to add some weight to cut more times on the spot I cut 2 weeks before.

yooperpete, I found two cutters have different distance to the furrows, one is just touch the furrow, and other one is all most one inch separate. I will take some pictures show you this weekend. Looks adjust is so important to let it works good. I need more time to play with it.



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kthompson
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2007-09-07          145476

kangaroo, some more thoughts following these other guys, on my dirt a subsoiler and chisel plow do some good work. I do NOT think you would be pleased with chisel plow in the trash you have. Not sure you would be happy with subsoiler either. You need to CUT the weeds and roots and those plows work best in clean ground. Now, if you want to pull the roots out the ground into piles to burn or haul off a chisel plow can be a great idea.

Ask an older farmer about using subsoiler on your muck dirt. It may help, hurt or make no difference. Ask so you don't make a mistake or waste money or time. Subsoiling can affect the way your dirt handles water a lot. If your dirt has a hardpan as Joel mentioned it can be a real help. If it does not have a hardpan it probably is a waste of time and effort to. If you don't know if it has a hardpan try digging a hole. If you hit a layer of compacted soil that is "hard" you have a hardpan. Normally only tested down about 24 inches and many subsoilers will not plow any deeper either.

If your land is heavy with the weeds, hire it cut with rough cut mower by another farmer. Usually not that much compared to a company who does "construction" land cutting. Totally agree with Murf the smaller pieces the trash is cut into the better off you will be. If you don't mind a few hours or disking one way and than another that will do a lot to cut up the trash. Again drying in between.

Your coulters are suppose to cut the trash ahead of the plow, are they doing that? YP, Murf or Joel can give you a good idea of how deep they should cut, my guess is about 2 inches. New plows normally are rough. Get the metal slick, will make a world of difference in wet dirt. Dry dirt rough plows are fine. Dry dirt will act like sand paper and will smooth the metal, giving a cutting edge a very sharp edge. I think it was YP who pointed out wet dirt is hard to work. It sticks so easy to metal.

You will find scrapers on some disk to remove build up of wet dirt from the blades. You may need that on your disk if you will always be working wet dirt.

You may be well off to hire a local farmer with heavier equipment to do the first disking and cutting of the trash. kt


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earthwrks
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2007-09-07          145482

So Kenny...if he digs down and finds hard dirt that's "hardpan". Gotchya.

What if he digs WAY down and finds no hard dirt? Would that be "Ja-pan"? (get it?---digging WAY down to Japan!!!) ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-07          145492

Kangaroo,

Maybe I fouled up somewhere along the way.

When you mentioned "roots", were you referring to tree roots, or weed roots?

If you're dealing only with weeds, you won't need a subsoiler. The Wako 755 knife, which I mentioned earlier, is only for cutting through large tree roots.......and it works very well for that.

If your situation doesn't involve any tree roots, you're first going to have to get rid of the vegetation on the surface, and then attack the weed root problem......in that order.

Round-Up herbicide will do a good job on both. After two weeks, you'll easily be able to handle the entire field with only your disk.

Once you rid yourself of the vegetation and the roots, you can then hit the field with your plow. The plow will loosen the soil to a much greater depth, which will provide good root depth for your plants.

Joel ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-09-08          145497

Thanks,KT,Joel. I will try all the suggestions see if works. I will show some pictures after back from field. ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-09-24          146017

Update: Looks no shotcut to me. My disk and plow looks too small to handle the virgin land.

Finally the closest border bridge re-open. And it almost the slow season now. Some local farmer come and help. Pay $50/hr brush hog. First time, need run over some big shrubs and knock down some trees. Took the guy 10 hours to clean up 16 acres. It ilooks much better now. Need wait 2 weeks to spray Roundup, may need use bigger plow to turn over 10-12 inches, apply lime. Wait for next year.


[img]http://forums.jingping.com/uploaded/Snitz00/2007924113124_zzPICT0096.jpg[/img]

[img]http://forums.jingping.com/uploaded/Snitz00/2007924113144_zzPICT0101.jpg[/img]

[img]http://forums.jingping.com/uploaded/Snitz00/200792411320_zzPICT0107.jpg[/img]





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kthompson
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2007-09-24          146023

kangroo,
I did not get the links to work for me.

I do not think you will use Roundup this late in the year. My guess is you are too close to killing frost for it to be of any value.

Depending on how large the trash is you now how after hireing it cut will determine your next action. If very little trash after it dries then you may be able to plow, if some trash then disk it to cut the trash into short enough pieces they will flow through the plow and you can bury them. As to the size of your equipment and 16 acres, it is the time factor more than anything else. Small equipment can do a lot if you have the time and take it. Anything you can get plowed under this fall will be to your benefit for next spring.

Earlier you said you did not want to burn the trash, but if you have a hard time with your disk cutting it, then you may can use a landscape rake to pull into piles to let rot.

Green trash is often easier to cut with disk than totally dry trash. A lot of any trash is hard to cut with one trip across. This can be a good time to use patiences. kt ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-24          146041

Kangaroo,

I managed to get the pictures to open for me. Nice photos.

Your field looks great after it was mowed. You won't need to use any herbicides. The herbicides are an alternative to mowing. It is not necessary to do both.

If you have a good plow with coulters installed, you should now be able to turn that sod under. Without the coulters, you'll first have to chop up the vegetation with a disk. Hook up that plow and have a go at it.

Plowing is a slow process, due to the fact that you don't cover much ground per round, but once done you won't have to do it again for many years.

After you get it plowed up, let it dry out for a few days and then hit it with the disk. It will be a rough ride over the plowing, so take your time.

You may have to place some extra weight on your disk to help it cut a bit deeper. If you have notched disks, it will help a lot. If your disks are round, you'll likely have to go over it a couple of times before the plowing begins to break up.

Have a go at it, and then share some more photos with us.

Joel ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-25          146045

Well once I figured out what to drop from the addresses they opened fine for me also.

Kangroo, you did well to hire that done. It would have taken a major disk to have cut those weeds. As Joel has pointed out using a bottom plow is slow. One thing I don't know if you mentioned or not but does your plows have any trip or shear to them IF you hit such as large root or stone? You are plowing ground which you don't know and if your plows do not and you hit such with fast ground speed...oh well... plow damage or even operator getting hurt is very possible as the tractor could stop all at once and you could keep moving. Probably good seat belt work. Do not make mistake of trying to plow the dirt too deep. (ask local farmer there what depth they suggest and of course do not over load your tractor and plows. If your wheels are spinning, pick up the lift. You will also want to disk it the same direction in which you plow it to reduce bouncing. With second disking you probably will be able and wish to disk at an angle to the first disking. This will depend on how hard the dirt is. You probably will need to experiment with the disking, you may find over lapping by 50% where each time the disk is 50% in undisk ground works best (can help if ground is rough as two wheel are on smoother ground and also if disk is having problem cutting weeds due to not being heavy enough) or very little over lap. This will depend on your preference and your ground. If you do 50% over lap you will be disking it twice as you cover it. Have fun! Make money! kt ....

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hardwood
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2007-09-25          146047

I'm wondering why you would disk it this fall after you mouldboard plow it. Disking it this fall will acomplish two things, it will recompact the soil, and create a level fine soil surface that will be highly subject to overwinter wind erosion. Leave it rough and mother nature will do ten times more good than a disk will. Next spring try a tooth type implement such as a spring tooth harrow instead, and use a disk only as a last resort if the spring tooth clogs with trash. Maybe your soil types are enough differnt than here, but in flat, black Iowa ground we never follow the plow with anything after fall plowing, it just creates a perfect environment for wind erosion. Ask a neighboring farmer who seems to show a successfull pattern of tillage methods and grows a good crop for a bit of advice. Frank. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-25          146050

KThompson,

Thank you for bringing up those important safety issues. Overlapping with the disk is also a very good suggestion.


Kangaroo,

Please take KThompson's advice. Go slow, wear your seatbelt, and don't dig too deep.

Set your plow just a bit deeper than the sod roots. Try setting it to cut about 6 to 8 inches deep, and then inspect the work to see if you are getting all of the roots.

Also, when hooking up your plow, do not adjust the turnbuckles on your lower three-point arms too tight. You'll want to allow your plow to swing left to right at least a few inches as you plow, so as to allow the plow to shift left or right after striking the bigger rocks. After you hook up the plow, adjust the hitch to allow for a total about 8 inches of lateral movement.......4 inches left of center, and 4 inches right of center.

Since this land is new to you, there is no way of knowing what might be buried there. Choose a low gear and go slow. You'll want to run your engine at full RPM for this job, as plowing is hard work.

If your engine begins to bog down (lugging) you'll need to raise your plow at least temporarily. If you don't, your engine will quickly begin to overheat. Watch your engine RPMs and temperature constantly.

If the soil is very heavy, or wet, it may be necessary to set your plow fairly shallow on the first pass. Your tractor will tell you how deep you can go. A few days later, after the soil has dried out a bit -- you will have to plow it again, going deeper on the second go-round.

It will take you a while to plow up 16 acres of virgin sod. Be patient, take breaks, and don't fall asleep while at the wheel. Take frequent breaks, drink coffee, take naps, etc.....and remember that it doesn't have to be done in one day. You have until freeze-up to do this. There's no huge rush.

Joel ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-10-22          147216

Thank, Joe, KTom,HW. The past month, I learn lot from local farmers and become more and more familiar with this piece of property.
Something I did or hire local farmer did:
1. Brush hog 16 arces.
2. Open a 600ft road about 17-18 feet wide from road to open field.
3. Ask local farmer help me dig two 800 ft ditchs. One is 2 ft wide and the main ditch is 3.5 ft wide.
4. Visit couple local farmers. All vege growers, one is wholesale, other two are retailers.
5. Send soil samples to CPA, still waiting for the result. May need lime later.
6. Got some vege harvests from my 2000 square feet testing field.
7. Move over handred types of transplant (2 thousand ) selected hardy shrubs & perennials from my backyard to new property. Will watch how many of them can pass the winter on this open field.

The fact I learned:
1. The black dirt is very shallow, 1.5 feet most of place, some spots are little more than 2. It is not suitable for serious commercial grow. That is one of the reason why no real farmer interesting. But it is OK to me.
2. under black dirt is clay, grey color, poor to drain. Good for pond. :-)
3. wild animal is not a very serious problem, if the field is open.
4. Not enough time for me to do everything myself, learned how to hire people do something for me.

Joe and Tom: The local farmers told me it is too hard to control weeds on black dirt here, round-up is must. Especially at beginning. I will leave about 1.5 acre separate piece for future organic testing area to compare.

HW, I will hire local farmer to use 5 bottom big plow to break land for me. I will use my plow for smaller project later. I will not disk it until next spring. Let winter help me do the job first.

I will post some picture later of this week.

....

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