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 | CaseyR
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 53 Columbia River Gorge, Oregon 
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2000-01-14 11962
At what size tractor does 4wd become less important when doing loader work? Most users have indicated that 4wd is pretty much essential with smaller compact tractors. Others have indicated that one can get better value by spending the same money for a larger 2wd ag tractor. I notice that the large loader/excavator rigs such as the Case 580s and the Cat 310s are rear wheel drive only, so at that size, 4x4 must not be critical.
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| Paul Fox
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-14 11963
Generally, traction is the main consideration, and that is determined in large part by weight. Where to draw the line is varies with the intended use. It will be interesting to see the range of responses you get, but as a SWAG (Scientific Wildly Approximate Guess) I'd say somewhere around 5000 pounds.
You can add weight to a 2wd utility and get some benefits, by filling the rear tires with Calcium Chloride and/or adding bolt on weights. On smaller compact utilities, you are limited by two factors: How much weight the axles/transmission can handle, and how much flotation the rear tires provide. Too much weight on two narrow a tire will get you in a jam in wet conditions. ....
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| By the Brook Farm
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-14 11965
A Case 580 is not a large excavator, either is a Deere 310, and a lot of these actually are 4wd. 20,000lb John Deere Ag tractors have 4wd. It is for traction, not loader work. If you need 4wd because your butt end is sticking in the air and you have no traction, you should probably get off that machine before you kill yourself. Think about it..what the heck does 4wd have to do with how much you can lift?? So you have MFWD and you are creeping along with your tractor overloaded, your rear wheels barely touching the ground..not a pretty sight. The lift capacity of a JD 420 or 460 loader is the same on a MFWD tractor as it is on a 2wd. But, if the ground is muddy and mucky or covered with snow, yes MFWD will be an advantage..it will give you more traction in those conditions...that is why you want 4wd. ....
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| Paul Fox
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-15 11967
What you say is true, especially about the overloaded part. However, I have a JD 750 with MFWD, and I spend a lot of time with it engaged. Case in point: brush hogging. I run a 5' Woods M5 with it, and in relatively light mowing conditions (essentially just 3' weeds and grass) I end up spinning the rear wheels even on dry ground, and using MFWD. Under these conditions, the tractor is certainly not overloaded in terms of either gross weight or power requirements. The big problem is that it weighs in the neighborhood of 1800 pounds sopping wet, and has trouble putting it's power on the ground. This is where MFWD really shines. And trust me, you can get just as stuck with a MFWD as you can without. Maybe more so, due to overconfidence. (Yes, this is The Voice of Experience speaking! ;-) ....
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| By the Brook Farm
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-15 11968
Yep, like I said, 4wd is for traction... ....
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| Jeff in NY
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-15 11969
Paul, I grew up learning that the SWAG acronym stood for different words. Thanks for giving me a more socially acceptable alternative definition. (I learn so much on this board.) ....
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| Paul Fox
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2000-01-15 11972
Yeah, me too, Jeff, but I didn't figure it would fly on this forum :-) ....
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| JonB
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-16 11983
Paul, what kind of tires are on your JD 750? I've a 4100 w/ R-1's, and the 4WD is absolutely necessary when scraping or ripping, and sometimes with mowing. I've never felt 4WD was absolutely necessary for loader work, but seems to help get a bigger bite from a pile of gravel or dirt. 2WD works well in mowing, except when the field is slippery or going uphill. I'm usually closer to 2300 lbs, but I agree with you and Brook entirely. It wouldn't be half the machine it is without 4WD. JonB ....
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| Paul Fox
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-16 11985
It still has the original Firestone ag tires on the back, but they're getting pretty tired (Eew, terrible pun, sorry :-) as you might imagine. I replaced the fronts a couple of years ago, too many miles running up and down paved roads. Haven't priced rears yet, but I expect it'll be fairly depressing when I do. ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-16 11989
4wd is good for tractors of all sizes, even for tractors having 100's of HP and lots of wieght. But some tractors have a lousy front end, their axles or drums heat up after exteneded use e.g. Belarus tractors
Nuclear_Weapon7.
Hyderabad,
Sindh,
PAKISTAN.
....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2000-01-16 11998
I have a farmer neighbor who has a couple of John Deeres that are approximately 150 hp each, 2WD. He has to put duals on the rear to have enough traction to pull his big plows, then takes the outside ones off to cut, rake, bale, and move hay. He says he'll never buy another tractor without 4WD; that a tractor with 4WD will give you 15% to 25% more pulling power than the same size with 2WD. I believe he's probably right. ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-01-17 12011
Casey,
I also agree with what has been said. Quite possibly the best feature about 4WD extends beyond added traction. It offers front/rear brakes!! Additionally, under load..soil/turf damage seems far less with 4wd. I would assume this means your tires last longer as well. ....
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| Mk62
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-17 12037
Kinda reminds me of the hydro vs. gear threads. Hey, the way I looked at it for my purchase was that we have tractors available today that just weren't around in the past...take advantage of that. I spent the extra and got hydro and 4wd. Absolutely no regrets. Unless your tractor is to be used for highly specific applications that wont take advantage of hydro and 4wd you will almost certainly find yourself wishing you had them. If you spend a bit extra now you wont regrete it. I don't think I've ever seen a message from someone regreting getting hydro & 4wd. ....
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| Paul Fox
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-18 12045
4WD is the only way to go on compacts, IMHO. However, unless you count compression braking, it DOES NOT provide 4 wheel brakes, that I'm aware of. Also, in my experience, it actually accellerates wear on the front tires when in use, as the fronts rotate just slightly faster than the rears to provide a slight pulling action that promotes handling and steering. I replaced the fronts at about 1700 hours, the rears are still in usable condition. Some of my tire wear can be attributed to the fact that I work on very rocky ground here in Maine, and also when I was doing custom tractor work full time, I would drive it over paved roads to jobs near by. (No, not in 4WD!) ....
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| Kim Hartshorn
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2000-01-18 12049
True enough about not having real brakes....but compression braking is very important to me anyway. 4wd has been very handy in the woods for not only going where I need to go...but also for NOT going where I DO NOT WANT to go :-)
One thing about compression braking....it works best in low gears. Since I operate a geared 3speed 4range transmission I am wondering if hydro transmissions function the same way in terms of compression braking or if they automatically "upshift?" as gravity starts to assist with the torque.
Kim Hartshorn ....
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| Greg Birky
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-18 12052
I think the meantion of "real" front brakes is referring to the fact that in 4wd, the front and rear axles are locked together mechanically, and must turn together. Therefore, applying brakes (at the rear wheels) in effect brakes the front as well due to the positive mechanical link through the transmission and drive shafts. ....
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| Kim Hartshorn
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-18 12056
On my 4wd Ford 1500 anyway the front wheels continue to turn when I brake the rears if I am in gear. I rarely brake in gear however usually I have depressed the clutch. The important point here is that traction going down is just as important as traction going up :-) and slipping the rears going down a slope with a 2wd I think would be sort of scary. Havent done it, don't want to :-)
Kim ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-01-18 12057
Kim,
I'm Curious to know how you determined that your fronts are still pulling while applying "BOTH" rear brakes? I didn't think tractors had clutched transfer cases/gearboxes. Otherwise..I'm not sure how this would be possible. I guess I should have chosen my words better in terms of the mention to braking. Thanks, Greg for the explanation of my thoughts. Obviously the front wheels do not have actual brakes mounted to them, but they are still mechanically linked, and therefore become part of the drivetrain. The advantage of 4wd braking became a very..VERY notable feature to me after having an old tri-cycle front end IH 450 jack knife while trying to hold back a heavy hay wagon on a sloped farm path. The new baler must have packed the bales much tighter than the old one, because the old IH 450 was used for this very purpose for many..many years. Anyway, no-one was hurt,and other than a bit of bent metal here and there..everything was ok. BUT I can tell you that after having a full hay wagon drag you and a ROPS-"less" (seatbelt-less) tractor down a hill, until IT decides to stop isn't my idea of fun.. even on a good day....Just something to think when you say "I've done it 100 times before" ....
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| Kim Hartshorn
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-18 12063
Well now you have me curious myself. My short answer is that I have seen them turning...but now with the tractor at camp perhaps I was wrong. I will have to try it out with this conversation in mind. But just off the top of my head it seems like as i brake the rear wheels while in gear the fronts continue to turn..isnt this what the differentials would do? transfer torque to the free turning wheel? ....
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| Jack in IL
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-01-18 12066
There is 1 differential for the front axle and 1 for the rear axle but none between the front and the rear of the tractor. Consider trying this experiment next time you have a chance. With all wheel drive engaged, depress BOTH brake pedals down together and then glance around at all of the wheels. ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-01-19 12086
Kim,
Jack's explanation is also my understanding. You might be thinking along these lines because you have been able to completely stop 1 of the rear from turning, yet the front kept pulling. Short of using any type of differential lock. I'd be willing to bet, if you would bottom out your tractor in mud, you may only see 2 wheels spinning. One in the front, and one in the rear. Which brings me to a second point, the same holds true in braking. In order for a 4wd to utilize the front and rear "tires" for braking purposes, the rear brakes MUST be applied equally. The front tires don't actually have brakes and therefore rely strictly on the rear brakes to be transmitted through the driveline. This effect will not be transmitted to the front if the rear differential is allowed to spin. Only using the left or right brake pedal would cause this.
So to that extent Kim, you are correct. ....
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