Go BottomRoad maintenance- rear blade or box scraper or
 | alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA 
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2002-12-02 45651
I joined a private community with about 3 miles of 9'wide dirt roads, (clay and red shale). Maintenance is poor with lots of erosion ruts, lots of small rocks, and occaisional larger (watermelon size) rocks that protrude up. There is an older medium size tractor there in good working order with about 6'wide wheel base. It has a small loader on the front and I believe a 3 pt hitch on the back and I guess weighs about 4000 lbs. My first thought was that tractor might be able to smooth ruts out if it had a box blade. Then I was told a back blade would be better, and would be better for angling material to the center to create the proper crown in the road. I am also concerned about the larger rocks. I would hate to get a blade and ruin it in the first 10 minutes by hitting an oversize rock. I am pretty green on tractors and implements and would appreciate any advice.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2002-12-03 45663
For road work there are some nice machines out there that will do better than the machines you mentioned but the cost gets into the 2000 to 3000 dollar range. They can handle stones of all sizes as well as the fixed big boys and not be torn apart. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-03 45665
I bought the box because it cost less is heavy and will do a few things a blade without end-plates or scarifiers won't do easily. I say heavy, because weight is essential in allowing either a box or blade to cut compacted roadway material. The thing is that a heavy blade with all the adjustments and provision for end-pates and scarifiers is much more expensive than a box, and grading isn't the prime use for my tractor. If grading was a prime use, I'd probably would have coughed up the bucks for a good blade. For example, a blade with offset is almost essential for serious ditching unless the tractor is driven on the ditch bank, which often as not is unsafe. With my box, I'm limited to making swales and cleaning up drainage channels along my drives. I have cut and maintained roadway crowns though.
I think either a good blade or less expensive box would do the work. A 7' box would cover the tire tracks and allow for a bit of offset. A blade probably should be 8' to cover the tracks when angling the blade. An 8' blade on a 9' road might be unwieldy sometimes.
Grading is something of an art and I wouldn't expect to get good results the first few times out. It might be a bit easier for most people to get the hang of a box though. The one thing most people learn real quick is that when the front of a tractor goes up and down over bumps etc, the back does the opposite. It's pretty easy for a blade or box to dig bigger holes rather than fill the old ones in. I wouldn't worry too much about breaking things. 3ph implements will float up and over most obstacles. However, I'd do a walk through first and then go slow and use minimal attack angles to see if anything's going to snag. I'd also probably take weight off the back, put weight into the loader and run in 2wd. The combination of slow ground speed and minimal traction hopefully would prevent any damage if the blade would hang up. There's a bunch more that could be said and probably will, but there's also a bunch in the archives that covers the subject pretty well.
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 | marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-03 45667
There is a 3pt. machine that should work well with any larger compact. It has been sold under a variety of names and variations in design. It most commonly is refereered as a grade-all. It consists of two I- beams connected in the middle by to angled, parallel grader blades Some versions position the grader blades at opposite angles. Reguardless, Many rural counties use them to supplement the road patrols. They are excellent for removing potholes and never having them return. They have no moving parts and are excellent for your situation. ....
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2002-12-03 45668
I think your besr bet would be to hire someone with a motor grader. They could drag the ditch lines and get it back into shape. After that you could maintain it with a box blade.
You might even talk the county road crew into grading it for you. Here in Oklahoma, if a school bus drives down a private road, the county will maintain it.
Good luck
Billy ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-03 45669
Oh, expect to pay around 1500 retail or make one for around 500 at a welding shop. Most dealers can get them even if they don't stock them. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-12-03 45673
Another option might be a drag scraper, which is basicly a big box scraper with wheels on the back and a hydraulic or mechanical adjustment for depth of cut. Since it is pulled like a trailer it takes out some of the undulations Tom refered to.
I just converted my box scraper to this configuration and it works really well for getting a smooth grade. I can pull the trailer tongue and the wheels off and return it to a three point box in less than five minutes... best of both worlds I think. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-12-04 45720
Here is what I refered to in the post above. This is the OEM for several lines. These things work very well for road maintenence and road building. ....
Link:
Click Here
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| alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA
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2002-12-04 45733
Thanks, everyone, for all the ideas. The drag scraper looks easier to operate than some of the other options. Mark, if you read this, when you converted your box scraper to a drag scraper, did you create a depth adjustment feature and if so how? ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-12-04 45734
o^O--N-Lo ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-12-04 45735
Gee sometimes I wish I had a digital camera.
The first three symbols represent the tractor. The N is the box blade. The L is a set of carryall forks and the little o at the end is an old trailer axle and wheels. The – sign between the N and the L is a pivot point.
Not depicted is a Category 1 top link that connects the top of the N to the top of the L. Adjusting this link (as you would on any three point set-up) either pulls the tops of the L and N together or pushes them apart.
The --- between the tractor and the box blade is a piece of 2 inch square steel tubing. It attaches to the box blade by simply sliding into an under the bumper class 2 receiver available at any auto parts store.
The other end of the --- is a standard 2 inch trailer hitch.
On the tractor three point is a drawbar with a 2-inch ball.
So, you lower the three-point hitch to it’s lowest point and then adjust the top link between the box (N) and the carryall forks with wheels (Lo) so that the cutting edge is just kissing the ground. Then you raise the three-point hitch and adjust the top link to the desired cutting depth. Then you just drive to where you want to work and lower the whole apparatus with your three point hitch to engage the work surface. You can fine-tune the depth of cut at this point using either the three point or you can climb off the tractor and give the top link a turn or two.
Hope that is clear. Questions?
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-05 45739
Quite a heroic effort Mark: I would never have thought to use keyboard symbols to diagram it and generally it works for me--even if the forks remain kind of mysterious. I guess the top-link between the box and forks adjusts the cutting angle and the 3ph adjusts the depth. It's quite an idea.
I can see how cutting down the bumps ahead of the wheels plus big wheels would smooth out the grading compared to a regular box. The best way to do it with a regular box is to lengthen the top-link so the box rides mostly on its rear cutter. The front cutter then tends to cut the tops off of washboard while the width of the rear cutter keeps the box from dropping into the dips. Lengthen the link even more and the scraper turns into a spreader. On a possible downside, I don't know if the drag will spread material like an ordinary box. I know I use my box a lot to cut and drag material from high spots to low ones. Of course, the rig converts back to a regular box easily.
A couple of other ideas: The drag boxes pictured in the link probably can't be used to cut new crowns unless the wheels come off or lift off the ground. They would maintain side-grades already cut though. I also guess they'd back up like a utility trailer and may have similar tendencies to jack-knife. Even if there are a few downsides, it still seems like a better tool than a regular box for dealing with miles of washboard.
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-12-05 45744
The forks: they are standard deals from Gearmore.
Think of it this way: I built a fixed three-point hitch on the back end of my box scraper.
The "lower arms" are 1-inch nuts welded unto heavy angle iron; the angle is bolted to the back wall. A one-inch nut will pass the body of a 7/8 bolt or a cat 1 lower link pin, which is also 7/8 inch. So that creats the articulation or pivot point between the wheels and the box. And the degree of articutation is controlled by the top link.
If you set it right it will shave the high spots and distribute the load to the low points, but if it is set too deep it will fill up and that’s ok too because you might need to take the material elsewhere. Dumping is as easy as lifting the 3 pt hitch control.
Once it is set, you can make minor(or major) depth control/material dispersal adjustments on the fly with the 3PH.
Here is an interesting observation: a tractor that struggles with a full load in a standard box blade with pull a drag scraper full of dirt with ease. Go figure.
Road crowns: some of the higher end ready-made models have a tilt option between the axle and the blade. On the Hunstiger convertible model we can loosen and shim the axle or put a smaller tire/wheel on one side and get the same effect.
One of the things I was trying to do was to stay away from adding more (expensive) hydraulic controls to the tractor and the blade adjustment mechanism. I think I succeeded. A real basic drag scraper (manual depth control and no tilt) sells for $1200.00 , the total cost of this operation is about half that.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-06 45794
Mark: It does sound like you succeeded.
I've noticed that full boxes of gravel do challenge traction maybe more than aggressive cuts. I'll take a guess about the difference between in loads between with and without wheels. I have to tip my box pretty far back when I'm dragging material to keep the front blade from cutting the tops off of bumps. The load then is supported mostly on the flat of the back cutter.
I suspect that with the box tipped back there's a vector that pushes down on the rear cutter when there's forward motion. The same thing probably happens with wheels but increased loads on wheels don't created near as much extra drag as it would on the cutter flat. I do use this action to compact gravel that I've spread, but I've never noticed if there's more compacting if the box is carrying a lot of material. The box when used for compacting always seems to pick up part of a load of loose gravel and then come to equilibrium where it spreads as much as it picks up.
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| alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA
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2002-12-06 45816
Boy, Mark H. and TomG, you guys really know how to talk shop! I got the overall idea, but I did not fully follow all the details. Actually, I should probably try to find something already built rather than building one myself. What I don't want to do is go a buy something cheap that won't do the job. It sounds like a factory made drag scraper might be an option.
Mark L. mentioned a device with two angled parallel blades. I came across a grader attachment that fits that description at conterraindusties.com. It looks like a elongated box scraper, minus the rear blade, and with parallel blades crossing from one side to the other on an angle. I spoke to a rep. from there today and he was really sold on it being in a class by itself for this job, far outpreforming all box blades or rear blades. Apparently the two blades are normally set about 1/2" below the long side pieces. He says they scrape up the road (washboard as he called it) and leave a smooth even layer of loose material. It sounded good, except that it costs $2200 (for the 6' model.) Any thoughts?
Thanks. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-07 45824
I'd try to get a sense of everything the tractor is going to do. From the description, it seem like there's a lot more to the maintenance work than just curing washboard. I would keep in ming that some of the implements mentioned are designed so they do one thing very well but may not do other required work well or at all.
The most general-purpose implement of all is a heavy blade with offset, all adjustments and end-plates and probably a scarifier bar for compacted surfaces. The next most general are box scrapers, which are also considerably less expensive then the type blade mentioned.
A box has very limited ability to work ditches or move material to the side. Their ability to cut new side-grades such as crowns also is limited. Because a box has a rear cutter (swinging or fixed) they make grading washboard as well as spreading smoothing and compacting of loose material easier than with a blade--but certainly not as easy as the grader mentioned or a York rake with gauge wheels. York rakes are something else that can be considered special purpose. They spread, smooth and groom but don't cut well.
Off hand, I'd say that if ditching and especially snow removal is required than a good blade sounds more useful; otherwise a box should get by at less cost. However, in either case, having a rear hydraulic outlet probably is almost an essential--especially for a conventional box. You really don't want to have to hop off a tractor repeatedly to readjust the top-link. I think a definite advantage of Mark's rig is that is sounds like the geometry allows pretty good adjustment on the fly with the 3ph. On a regular box, 3ph adjustments are too imprecise and untimely for grading work to be very enjoyable. It also converts to a 3ph box easily for work that might not go so well with the wheels on.
For the commercial drag scrapers mentioned, I suspect that most have to have rear hydraulics for their dumps. I don't know if they're designed so that a drawbar adapter on the 3ph would lift if far enough for a clean dump and I'm not sure how well they'd spread.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-07 45825
A little shorter note this time: Grading in itself isn't always a good solution for road maintenance. Often road improvements are required or fill put into erosion ruts washes right back out again. There's a bunch of reading in the archives about road construction and maintenance. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-09 45914
This grade-all type machine that I was talking about does one important thing that makes it superior to all others and that is:potholes do not come back as as with other box-type blades. You should find cheaper prices if you look for around 1200 to 1500 dollars. ....
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| alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA
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2002-12-09 45946
Thanks again all for the thoughts and information. Two questions: TomG, could you let me know how to access the archives? I tried various searches on grading or road maintenance from the home page and mostly just turn up this discussion.
Also, MarkLugo, can you give any more pointers on who would make that "Grade-all" type attachment. I have done various searches on that word and am not coming up with much. The Conterra Grader seems very well built, with 850 lb weight of laser cut 1/4 inch steel, but if there were something similar for less money, I would like to find out about it. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-10 45951
I think the search is the only access to the archives. True enough that many of the best discussions around here occur as sidelines under unlikely subject titles, and I don't know how far back the current archives go. There were some good ones on road and path construction some years back. Maybe Dennis can comment. I imagine that a text search would eventually find fairly specific text strings but they take a long time.
I have seen pics of 'grade-all' type implements. I don't doubt that they're better than conventional boxes and blades for on-going road maintenance. I am curious what about them would make pothole filling permanent compared to alternatives. Compaction is the thing that comes to mind. True enough I do that as a separate and mostly by back dragging with the loader while holding down-pressure. Maybe Mark will comment.
In this discussion, we've neglected considering the tractor. Perhaps it's an older utility. Usually grader implements are selected to cover the rear tire tracks but longer blades are common so tracks will be covered when the blade is angled. Some special purpose grading implements are fairly heavy and extend further back from the link pins than most implements. It would be good to determine the tractor's 3ph capacity to insure it will manage what ever is purchased. A grader long enough to cover the tracks may exceed the 3ph capacity.
You should be aware that 3ph ratings are usually with the load centered 2' behind the link pins. A 3ph has to be de-rated for long implement. True enough that 3ph ratings often have more to do with balance than how much they can lift. Front ballast can solve balance problems, but ballast has it's own problems. Some grading implements require rear hydraulics and remotes are hard to provide on many older tractors. Some older tractors also don't have 3ph or have hitches that don't conform to current standards. Usually things can be worked out but perhaps with unexpected costs and aggravations.
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-10 45966
Airush, yesterday, I spotted one at Agri-Supply Company, a chain of farm stores,sort of a farmer's Wally world. They have several up and down the east coast states. They have a catalog and you can order one as well, even if it is not listed, you just need to ask. Price for a 5' GRADEMASTER: $769 (locally). I know they have a national watts, but I can't seem to locate it. Their local # is 229-386-1972. They do business here still under the original name of MSI(Mid-South Inc.) I think they were the original store or were bought by Agri-Supply or something. Anyway, call and ask about it or ask for a catalog. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-10 45969
TomG, the way the machine works is like a flour sifter. I know that is a wierd discription but as close as I can describe. It scrapes up and puts down material twice, with the material flowing over the top of one grading blade and backdown and over the top of the last blade and back down. It allows the finer material to be placed at the bottom. Finer material will compact easier than the coarse material. All the gravel is pulled to the top and is recovered from the bed. The angled blades work perfect for crowning. As for the capacity of the 3pt., you must remember with the advent of the true compact tractor, lift capacities have actually been reduced. Most older fords and massey's and even JD's of lower horsepower had lifts that could exceed the weight of the tractor itself. Most 3 pt. implements with a cat. I pins fit well within the capacity of most any tractor to lift it. If the tractor becomes light on the front, all companies supply either front weights or wheel weights to help accomodate increased lifting capacity. Also water in the tires ( with the appropriate amount of Calcium Chloride or Antifreeze) can help. Tire watering devices can be bought for as little as $7. Weights are generally $1 per lb. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-11 45996
Thanks Mark: The unit sounds different than one I saw pictured. What you say about compacting is certainly true. My box set for minimal cutting does tease stone to the surface somwhat. I guess I stone is on the surface than the finer material mush end up below. Something that improves the process would be even better.
The way it works for me is I run the box over my drives every year and compact the new surface. The first few rains washes out excess sand and leaves a surface of small stone. The surface becomes surprisingly durable after a bit of traffic on it. What is called gravel here is glacial pit-run, which is a mixture of sand and small stone.
I guess that some sand washes off the drive each year and eventually more gravel is needed. However, previous owners and myself actually overdid the gravel replacement. New gravel raised the top part of the drive and created a spring time drainage problem beside the house. Last summer I cut a new grade on the top part of the drive to lower the grade level and provide a drainage angle of nearly 4-degree.
Agree with the observation about 3ph capacity. My mid-80's Ford 1710 3ph is rated over 1,800 lbs. I think one of the TC-series is pretty much the same tractor and I'll bet the rating is less. I think some of the tendency for reduced ratings has to do with manufacturer concerns about liability rather than the physical lift capacity.
I don't suppose that in this unfortunate world of mass torts, it would work very well to publish manuals that say in effect that you can lift big weight on the hitch as long as you don't do anything stupid. It's probably easier to just reduce the ratings--besides then it's easier to sell people bigger tractors. I sort of agree with the lower ratings although I hope manufactures don't use it as excuse to make the hydraulics and drive-trains weaker. I do want to continue having the capacity to behave stupidly as long as I understand the risks and accept the responsibility.
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| alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA
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2002-12-11 46016
Mark, thanks for the tip about Grademaster blades at Agri-Supply. I looked them up and think their implement might be the ticket for our needs. The implement seems very similar to the conterra grader, but not quite as beefy (550 lbs compared to 850 lbs for the 6' model) and a lot less money ($769 compared to $2200). I also discovered a third make, FHM. They have a basically identical implement they call a "three-point spreader grader". It costs up around $2,000.
FHM says, the implement tends to create a boiling action as the blade slices through and the fill flows over the blades. It apparently brings the gravel to the surface.
I just wish I could try one of these implements out. My biggest question at this point is what will happen when it hits larger imbedded rocks. I was told by a salesperson that, if the rock won't move, the unit will then to slide sideways or bounce over it. Assuming nothing breaks, I guess the worst case scenario is certain rocks will have to be dug out, and moved away, or more fill would need to be added over them. Once that initial work was done, it seems the Grademaster or Conterra Grader would be just the ticket for easy ongoing maintenance. The Grademaster site says, "The GradeMaster blade will work at 10 to 12 miles per hour. Just lower the blade and drive. You'll cover miles, rather than yards."
Now all I got to do is sell the committee on the idea of getting one. That will probably be more work than fixing the roads. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-14 46129
If you have rocks, use your draft control or install and airbag :) If you aren't familiar with draft, or if your tractor doesn't have it, it senses plowing force on the hydraulics and raises the lift instantly to maintain a constant force. In other words, if a rock hits the blade, it tends to kick the rear of the implement up forcing the top link toward the tractor. There usually is a plate or coil spring at the point of attatchment of the top link. This motion compresses the spring which is hooked internally to a valve that overides preset or current lift height. It forces extra amount of oil into the lift piston causing the implement to raise. The action is reversed as force (draft) decreases. It would help to know the brand of tractor in order for me to help you learn how to use it. All tractors are slightly different in the exact use of it. In general, In a Ford,Massey or some case-IH there are two levers. One is the main lift control, the other is secondary and shorter or positioned under the seat. This is the draft lever. Some systems use both levers at the same time to allow fine control, some can only use one lever at a time. On some older Fords, There is a lever under the seat that flips up and down. This changes the main lever from position control to draft. A word of caution, use of the draft control takes practice to get it set just right. On some systems use of the draft control allows the implement to be either up or down. It controls plowing(operation) depth and complete raising only. Others will preset the draft when the position control lever drops the implement incrementally.
Good luck with the community board. ....
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| alrush
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 0 Bryn Mawr, PA
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2002-12-15 46139
Mark, thanks for the tips. I really appreciate how everyone has been so pleasant and helpful. I had no idea about 'draft control'. I did find out the tractor is an International 300. Next time I get out there, I hope to inspect it more closely and talk to the ranger there who operates it to see if I can identify the controls better. I'm thinking tracking down a manual for it might be helpful also. Thanks again. Alan. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-15 46153
This is either and old 50's tractor which won't have a conventional 3 point lift (it may have a 2 pt or aftermarket 3pt) or an industrial model with the same series #. If it is indeed the former, it can be converted by an experienced welder. No draft control though. It should pull it though. Try for a tradein. ....
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