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Removing sand from horse arena

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Jim Edmonds
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2002-09-02          41929

At the risk of exposing myself as a novice, I was wondering if someone could help me decide the best way to do the following.

We have an outdoor horse arena about 80 x 160. Unfortunately, we got too much sand place on it and it is hindering the horses ability to perform properly.

I have a small John Deere 4300. I don't believe a scraper will do the job since it will overflow with sand before I reach an end point. I've seen a box scraper but not quite sure how that would work. I think I want to collect a layer of sand and deposit it at another point in the arena. Does a box scraper permit this action? Of course a front end loader would probably do the job, but cost just out of line for my usage overall.

Any 2 cent opinions gladly welcome.

Thank you.


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Peters
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2002-09-02          41931

A scraper blade will remove the sand but it will be difficult to have it completely even. You can always angle the blade and keep drawing the sand to one side.
A box blade is essentially a blade with ends on it to keep the material from flowing of the end. Like a commercial scraper you can draw material with you in the box and then release it by raising the allowing the material to flow out. I this manner you can place a relatively even amount of material over an area. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-02          41937

Any blade or bucket, front or rear, will do the job given enough time and patience. You will end up with an uneven surface with the best of tools. To finish the job drag a chunk of chain link fence (or an old railroad tie or a log or a wood pallet with a couple of cement blocks on top)around and around and around to level and smooth it out. I bet there is something at the dump if you don't have a good collection of odds and ends around the old homestead. How do you deal with your horse droppings? Or are they pastured and alowed to spread it themselves? ....

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Jim Edmonds
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2002-09-02          41938

I appreciate the courtesy of your replys. I think the blade scraper behind the tractor will probably be my best choice. I do currently have a chain link fence weighed down with cinder blocks that I use on the arena to level out the hoof prints left in the sand, so that will help the leveling process after using the scraper.

Does the size of the scraper matter, other than larger ones covering more of an area? And when purchasing should I look for a blade that simply sets at a 45 degree angle or do some of them have various angles to use?

Thanks. ....

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TC29 in Wa.
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2002-09-02          41942

As an alternative to the rear scraper blade. Take a look at a landscape (York)rake. It will angle thus rolling the sand off to one side or the other, and it will give you a nice finish. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-02          41945

Your 4300 should be able to swing a 7-foot rear blade without problems. I have seen them in the local farm supply store for $250 or so for a 60". Every one I have seen that is worthwhile has built in detents for the angle and are also reversible so it will smooth or cut in either direction. The key element as to size is to have the tracks form your rear wheels covered when the blade is angled. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-03          41956

If you get the blade too wide, beyond the width of the tracks it is difficult to move close to a building, fence line etc. When you turn away from the structure the blade will initially move toward the structure. The longer the blade the more it will move. ....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-03          41972

The first thing you will need is patience. It takes a long time to move much dirt in a blade in an area as large as a horse areana. There are just more yards of dirt to move than you realaized.

My choice would be a 6' box scraper, but a 7' foot blade will give the same results, It will be cheaper than the box, but will take a little longer. the choice is yours, you know your budget.

It will leave the surface just like the posts ahead of me describe, and you will need a drag, just like they told you.

The good news is, short of a bulldozer or any other large, expensive, earthmoveing quipment. The blade or boxblade is the best way. It will just take some time.

He is an interesting tip that is a little off topic but I feel it's worth adding.

On the subject of horse droppings:

Your pasture will be better maintained if you add some whole kernaled corn to the horses feed. All kinds of critters will spread that pile out just to eat the kernal of corn. My neihgbor tried this, and it worked great, hear are wild turkeys in our area now, and the piles get spread out as fast as they fall from the horses! ....

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Jim Edmonds
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2002-09-04          41986

Thanks again for all the input. I think I can hear the theme from "Green Acres" playing in the background!

I realize now that using a scraper to move the sand will result in alot of sand. Exactly where I'm going to place it will be another decision. A box scraper seems to have an advantage in the sense that I could go in a straight direction (in the center of the arena) and remove the sand in a more precise direction. The blade seems to only offer the choice of angling from center out to edges and I think the resulting "mound" might look like a mountain. But a basic scraper might be useful in the future.

Since a box scraper is basically a scraper with sides, I'm surprised no one has invented a way of adding sides to a scraper to convert it?

I'm headed out today to see, feel and touch the scrapers to get a better picture of what I'm dealing with.

Thanks again.

....

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Murf
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2002-09-04          41988

At the risk of making sense... Wouldn't it just be a lot easier to ADD something (stone dust, clay, etc.) to the mix to make it a little more to your liking than trying to excavate a uniform (relatively large) amount of sand ?
Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-04          41992

Good point Murf. I wondered about that. Most soft sands are either wind or water deposits and as such are likely to run deep. Pulling the top layer off may not be very productive. ....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-04          42003

Good idea Murph,

I remember reading an ad in a trade publication a while back about a product to spread on the sand to firm it up, your posted jarred my memory, not hard enough however, because I can't remember much about it, or even what the name of the magazine was, I can remember it was enviromentaly friendly. That helps very little though. Maybe someone else read the same ad and could help us out here.

Calcium Chloride can be applied. This will help the sand hold moisture and keep it firm, but I doubt it woul;d be anything you would want to do, due to costs, and it will leach away after only a few months. ....

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Stan
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2002-09-04          42015

Last time I needed to add to our arena, local quarry had what they described as a sand/clay mix.

It packs better and seems to be less dusty than the sand we used last time - and if you don't work the arena too deeply gives excellent footing. Packs well, seems to stay put.

As we have various age horses, and lots of people traffic in the arena (sidewalkers and leaders) we stopped working as deeply as I used to, and the footing has been better - for people and critters. ....

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TomG
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2002-09-05          42032

Wonder if I've got my arithmetic right here? Three inches spread over a 180' x 160' rectangle would be 267 c.y. or about 18 tandem loads. At any rate, taking off as much as 3" of material is going to be a lot, and I'd keep in mind that my 6' scraper holds about a quarter yard. It would be a big job anyway it's done. And then it probably still has to be hauled away.

Box scrapers or blades are basically designed to cut material, and soft sand doesn't need to be cut. The usual way to use either is to fully float the hitch and adjust the blade angle to give a desired amount of cut. If used this way in soft sand they would just sink down to the hard surface and make for a lot of smoothing work.

An angled blade or rake with gauge wheels probably would work better. However, either would make windrows the width of the blade that have to be picked up somehow. A scraper might fill up fast but it's load could be dragged away, although there might be a lot time spent dragging compared to scraping. In addition, a hydraulic top-link is almost essential for doing cut and drag work with a box scraper.

An alternative might be to hold up a blade or scraper with the hitch to keep it from sinking in, but then it follows the tractor's attitude. Every time the front wheels go up the blade digs a gouge and every time they go down it dumps it's load. However, holding a scraper up with the hitch might work if the arena is level.

I think I stop here. Maybe I've illustrated enough so that improving the surface might seem like an easier alternative.
....

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Murf
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2002-09-05          42035

Although I see it done, and shudder every time I do, DO NOT put CaCl (Calcium Chloride) ANYWHERE that a horse is going to walk through it! It is the nastiest stuff to flesh you could imagine, if you need proof just read the WHIMIS sheet on the stuff, there is a whole (long) paragraph on the bags ours comes in cautioning against contact with exposed skin. I have personally seen horses feet so bad they had to be bandaged with salve till they healed after exposure to freshly treated ground.

The best stuff I have seen for improving footings in an arena so far, but it is a little pricey, is ground up rubber (tires I think), since it will not absorb or hold water it does not get muddy, and it makes the ground more resilient too. Otherwise a clay mix is the best, just be sure to mix it well or it has a tendancy to 'ball' up, which leaves the arena looking like a herd of rabbits came through.

Best of luck. ....

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Redmessage
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2002-09-07          42123

Jim, I also have a horse farm (wife runs it, I pay) with similar outside arena and JD4300 and once had too much sand. The best way to move the sand was with FEL. You said you thought it was too expensive, but my wife would be lost without hers. She uses it when cleaning stalls (just tosses manure in bucket, then can stack it really high), she uses it when stacking hay or moving hay to pasture, uses it to carry gravel to patch gravel road, uses it to move snow (we live in Iowa). The FEL is well worth the investment.

....

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Bob H.
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2002-09-14          42378

I have a tractor business and specialize in building and maintaining arenas. I use a Parma arena groomer for most of my arena work. It is a great tool but pricey for anyone not using it in a business.
Often I will arrive to fix an arena and find a very uneven distribution of the footing (usually sand). If the footing is too uneven to quickly redistribute with the arena groomer I will use the FEL. By angling the bucket downward so the front edge is like a scraper and backing up you can redistribute the material fairly quickly. If the material is real deep, put some down pressure on the bucket just to the point where it raises the front wheels and then back up. If you don't want to move that much just use the float and control the bucket angle to move whatever amount desired. If you have to move it very far the best method is to pull the material back into a row and then use the bucket to go down the row and pick it up to move it. I hope this makes some sense. Removing sand from an arena is a tough, time consuming job. I always caution people to add a little at a time. It is far easier to add some than to remove it.
A transfer (truck and trailer) carries 25 tons of sand which is about 21 yards of material. A 80 X 160 arena would require about 1.75 transfers of sand for each inch added to the surface.
I am not a real fan of the ground up rubber material for a number of reasons. The best of this material is one called rubbermate. The pieces are rectangular in shape and lay across one another helping to keep air in the soil and providing a good cushion. The problem is with the maintenance. In an outdoor arena, when it rains, the rubber floats to the surface and if the arena has any slope to it, it runs off to the low side. It requires a constant maintenance program to keep it evenly distributed and blended with the other footing material (sand etc.). There are only a few tools that can be used to properly mix it back into the soil.
It becomes very dusty if not watered and is so bad that if used indoors and not well watered, I won't even work on an arena with it. You get a black soot all over everything and it is not healthy to breathe. It does work pretty well in an indoor properly watered arena. It doesn't require that much maintenance and does a good job of keeping a cushion in the soil.
It is very expensive and just one of many additives available. Ground up tennis shoes are also used and there are two categories: ground up tennis shoe tops and ground up tennis shoe bottoms. This footing is generally called Nike footing. It isn't dusty like the rubber tire material but presents the same problems when used in outdoor arenas during the rainy season.
Good arena footing can be tough to achieve depending upon where you are and what type of soil you have. I prefer natural footing which is a mixture of sand and sometimes clay or other natural dirt mixes. When properly blended, you can get a footing that has good cushion for the horse yet will pack enough under the hoof to give the horse a good drive. This is important in the more athletic events such as jumping, cow working, roping, barrel racing, etc.
I hope this helps.
Bob











Hope some of this helps. I'll try to answer any other questions you have. ....

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TomG
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2002-09-15          42403

That's very good information Bob. I recently read most of the Dick Francis novels. He is a champion steeple-chasing jockey who turned to writing mysteries. All the novels involve horse racing is some way, and quite a few of them get into training and course maintenance. I found the books very good reads, and I may have learned something as well. I did come away with the idea that constructing and maintaining training and racing courses is a pretty sophisticated business.

It's also good to know that my arithmetic may be off by a factor of three. Our trucking company here uses 16-yard loads in estimating for his tandem axle dumps but that still wouldn't explain the difference. I must have miss-converted something. I calculated (180 x 160 x .25)/27 = 267 to get cubic yards from 3" of material. Looks like I used 15-yard loads for reasons I don't know.

It may be a formula problem rather than just arithmetic. It might be good for everybody here including myself to develop some basic reliable estimating skills. Any help is appreciated.
....

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Bob H.
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2002-09-15          42415

Tom, I do my calculations as follows:
80 X 160 = 12,800 sq.ft.
12,800/12 = 1067 cu.ft. for 1 in. of material
1067/27 = 39.5 cu.yds.
39.5/21 = 1.88 transfers (truck with trailer 80,000lbs)
The transfer can carry 25 tons and still meet the 80,000lb gross load limit. Sand weighs 1.2 tons per yard. This varies somewhat depending on the moisture content in the sand. 25 divided by 1.2 yields 20.83 yards and I round up to 21.
I hope this makes some sense. I do these calculations almost on a dialy basis and have gotten to where I can do them in my head and be pretty accurate.
Bob ....

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Jeff Earthwerks Unli
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2002-09-15          42443

On the surface this is going to sound stupid-- but if you want to move the sand quickly to a pile or even a long windrow(s)-- use a pickup-mounted snow plow. I haven't done it but have talked to fellow contractors who in a pinch have had to use a snow plow to move dirt. I have a v-plow that inverts forward that would scoop and push the sand. Once it's piled or windrowed get or rent a bobcat and a buddy's dump truck --just make sure it will raise high enough to clear the truck sides. ....


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