Go BottomHydrolic malfunction
 | Tom Hanks
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-10-03 43303
I have a New Holland 1730, recently the hydrolics just stopped working. I removed the output of the pump and initially it squirts out about 4 to 6 ounces of fluid and then stops pumping. The fluid level is ok and I replaced the filter. The only thing between the filter and the pump is about a 1 inch tube. I removed the pump and I am thinking about replacing it. However I still have some reservations because I am not sure I eliminated all the other potential causes. Any opinions would be appreciated.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-10-04 43331
I wonder if it's a 1720? My ramblings are specific to my 1710.
I believe the first thing to do is to recall if the pump got hot. Then, I'd check for an obstructed or broken suction line, which should be several sections of steel tubing running from the cases to the the pump and contains the filter. There are a number of banjo fittings in the line that would be convenient places for obstructions to lodge.
I'm not exactly certain how best to check the suction line--including the filter assembly. It would be convenient to hook an external pump to it and see if it draws oil from the sump. Perhaps pressurizing it a bit to see if air can be blown back through the sump might work. An alternative is to take it apart, but a new seal kit would be a good idea and the sump might have to be partially drained.
If the suction line seems clear and unbroken, I'd fill it up with oil reconnect it and give it a try. I believe these pumps are more or less self-priming so loss of prime shouldn't be an issue if the line is open.
Generally, if the suction line is open, there is adequate oil and the pump's drive is intact, then it should pump something. Partial obstructions or small breaks should cause a pump to at least pump froth and get hot. A worn pump shouldn't cause a complete loss of pumping.
My 1710 has a priority valve for the power steering on the bottom of the pump body. A priority valve could be an additional complication in trying to figure out the problem.
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-05 43431
Thanks for the input by the way I meant to say 1715 not 1730. I removed the pump and inspected it. I didn't look bad at all. I ask the New Holland service rep what he thought about the pump. He said it looked ok and he thought I was sucking air. I reinsalled the pump and removed the filter housing manifold from the chasis. I inspected and cleaned it. It looked fine so reinstalled with no improvement. I then took a ten foot clear poly 3/4 inch hose and filled it up with fluid and put the end in a gallon of fluid. I then hooked it to the input of the pump. The front loader raised perfectly. The manifold must be leaking even though I totally cleaned it and painted it. I really can't think any other cause. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-06 43436
That's a pretty good test. If you haven't done so already, I'd remember to check the TX oil level.
Here are a few ideas. There was a problem sorted out here quite awhile ago that proved to be a crack in the filter base. However, the symptoms were different. In that case, the 3ph deteriorated after periods of mowing and the oil became hot and frothy. I suspect that it would take a pretty good-sized break in the suction line before the pump wouldn't pump anything. However, there are two o-rings per banjo fitting that could make for a lot of air space, although the ones below the sump oil level should leak noticeably if they were bad.
I guess the tractor uses a spin on filter so the element can't simply be removed for testing. There would be the possibility of applying air pressure at a rubber hose section in the filter outlet tube. Air should bubble back through to the sump. Pressure also might make a break in the line apparent. With a spin on filter, I guess the suction line could be tested in sections. I believe the nipple in the filter base goes to the suction line while the outlet line goes to ports in the base. I haven't heard of this type testing but it seems like it might work. Pressure also might dislodge an obstruction. I guess I’m still thinking it sounds more like an obstruction than a break, but either can produce the symptoms. However, either can produce hot frothy oil from a pump as well.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-06 43440
Just an after thought: If it were an obstruction, I don't know if I'd expect to be able to detect the rubber hose section flattening due to high suction or not. Some oil might leak into the pump to create a prime and then be expelled. Remaining oil in the pump would cavitate and reduce the suction. A momentary flattening of the rubber hose might be noticeable. As you probably know, it wouldn’t be good to run a dry pump for long trying to test it nor is it a good idea to put a thumb over the outlet of a pump that doesn’t seem to be pumping. ....
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-06 43454
Thanks, I like the pressure idea. I will try that on Monday. I have been thinking it might be an obstruction inside the sump area. Since I painted the entire exterior of the manifold with enamal paint, "the same that the tractor is painted". Since I put silicon on interface to the filter housing and pump input supply pipe "I am sure that is sealed" I would think the paint would close any oriface or hole from a crack on the manifold. My question is: Could some internal crack. That does not sound possible because I think the only thing that would happen would be that the filter would be bypassed. ??????? My gut is starting to tell me that there is an obstruction. The only thing is I have removed the entire line all the way to the pump. Cleaned with steel wool and blew into the pipe. It seemed tight. I think my next step will be drain the sump area and pull the pan off. Possibly something in the reservoir is being drawn into the opening at the bottom of the sump area. The vacume may be sucking the hole closed.
One thing though that draws me back to the idea that there may be a crack is that the filter had a big dent in it. One more visual inspection and I am going to replace the manifold.
Thanks for the Help.
Tom ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-07 43480
In the back of my mind I keep thinking that it would be a pain to go through all this and the explanation ends up being that the pump just needed to be primed. It's an assumption on my part that they are self-priming (because thee is little difference in height between the sump oil level and the pump). I've never heard a reference to priming the pumps on this type tractor, but some old Ford farm tractors have ports just for pump priming.
I took a look at my 1710 parts manual, and I don't think any part of the suction line extends into the cases. It looks like it's just a threaded port below the oil level that a fitting screws into.
In tear-downs I would keep in mind that there are o-rings. Tractor stores usually have a wide range of generic o-rings, but square sided rings are used here and there on some tractors, and generic rings don't work well as replacements. Myself, I'd avoid painting and sealing till I got it working. I hope the sealant doesn't complicate future maintenance. Drizzling hydraulic oil around fittings to see if it gets sucked in might be a pretty good test for breaks.
An alternative to trying pressure might be hooking an external transfer pump of similar gpm capacity to the suction line to see if it draws oil. If it started, stopped and then buzzed or knocked, it's probably that insufficient oil flows through the suction line. The pump blew its prime and then cavitated any remaining oil (pump cavitation often makes sounds like ball bearings rattling, which might have been noted from the tractor pump as well). Following up on what might have happened along with a dented filter is a very good idea.
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-07 43503
The test I made using the clear pipe on the pump input proved the pump could pump but it was gravity fed because I placed the container holding the fluid on the big wheel. I considered the possibility that the pump is weak and losing its prime. It does sound like its cavitating some of the times. Some times there is no noise except the pump rotating. When I removed the output of the pump and started the engine the pump spurted out some fluid. When I turned the engine off a suction still remained in the input line and I could hear it sucking air backwards to fill the vacuum. I preasure washed everything around the hydrolics system. I tried putting fluid in different areas and don't see evidence of sucking the fluid in. I am going to do some more experimenting with the clear hose filled with fluid. I am going to fill it with oil as before except I am going to fasten it to the pipe coming out of the filter. This way the who circuit will be on line. Then I can tell if its just sucking air or has no oil supply. Tom ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-08 43539
Sounds like you have an organized approach and are likely to find the problem. It'll be real interesting to hear what it is.
Seems like I'm into an assumptions rut the past several days. So here's another, and maybe then I'll be out of my rut. I believe that some tractors (especially those with HST) have both input screens in the cases and canister filters. I think oil flow to remotes can run through both a screen and a filter. It would be a real pain if a clogged screen was the problem. I don't believe my 1710 has a screen, and I'm assuming a 1715 is similar. ....
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-10-08 43550
Tom,
We recently worked through a similar problem on a Yanmar YM1510D. Our particular problem was the tractor would have to run for a couple of minuites before the pump would prime. Then it would work fine as long as the tractor did not set for more than an hour or so. We decided it probably was not the pump since it worked so well once it was primed.
On the 1510, there is a metal suction tube inside the transmission that threads into a fitting that has 2 o-rings on it. The threads and the o-rings were above fluid level, so we were sure we were sucking air at that point, just enough to lose prime. We tore the trans apart and found the fittings to be tight and leak free. That ended up being wasted time. Eventually we swapped on a used pump and our problem went away.
We did learn, at least in this application, that a good pump is self-priming. Our other pump was weak and struggled to prime, yet was powerful and quiet after being primed.
Still learning......
Dave ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-09 43588
Dave: Thanks for the comment. That's a definite possibility and something I'd sure pursue before going inside the cases unless an internal obstruction was obvious. If a spare pump wasn't available, I wonder if a dead-end pressure test would be enough to diagnosis a pump worn enough so it wouldn't draw form the sump? I guess the same wear on the gears that would cause it to loose suction also would cause the max pressure to decline.
I know that pressure gauges are inexpensive but I guess getting some expertise on how low a max pressure might go before a pump on a particular tractor wouldn't draw oil might be tough, although service max pressure specs might be available. It would be convenient if a person could conclude that a pump should draw OK as long as it can develop enough pressure to open its relief valve. Relief valve pressure tests are easy enough, or you might just assume that the relief valve is OK and listen for it to open. Maybe another even simpler alternative is to ask the dealer what the service life of the pump is. Compare that to hours on the tractor and just replace the pump if it's close to its service life expectancy.
I'm not absolutely certain if the port on my Ford 1710 is above or below the sump oil level but it's down fairly low on the cases. I looked in my parts manual and couldn't find a tube inside the cases on either the hydraulic pump piping or the TX case assembly drawings, but sometimes parts are drawn on assemblies I wouldn't think of. Near as I can tell I don't have an internal tube so the port must be below the sump level, but I'd sure check for a 1715 to make sure.
If there's an internal tube, a test for leaks still seems possible. If oil is drawn into the suction tube it should create and hold a vacuum.
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-09 43628
On the 1715 that I have the sump has an opening at the bottom just above the transmission cover plate. IT is a trianglar slot that empties out at the bottom of the filter manifold. The manifold is about 8 inches long extending down to the bottom of the transmission chassis. Inside the manifolt there is path for the fluid to be drawn up into the top of the filter. The Pump is above the sump storage. I tried an experiment of having fluid drawn through a clean tube from a gallon container since it was gravity fed it was not that good of a test. I am planning on hooking the same 10 foot hose in series with the end of the pipe and the input of the pump. I will be able to stop flow by pinch in the tube and inject air to determine if the pump is cavitating. I was thinking of bypassing the filter for a test by putting the hose down the oil input hole, (if it would fit) The fluid is new but I could suck particles into the hydrolic sysem. Do you have any more information on how the bypass works in the pump. Thanks, Tom ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-10 43644
Sorry, I may have confused terminology. I use sump and reservoir interchangeably. My curiosity is what may be inside the TX case. I don't think there's is anything beyond the port on my 1710, but Dave says that a 1510 Yanmar has a tube extending down inside the cases. A break in that tube would admit air into the suction line.
I purely speculate here that a test for such a condition might be to draw oil into a plastic line from the sump through the filter manifold. The line could be extended some feet above the sump oil level and pinched. The oil level should stability and then not decline. However, I don't know how high the column would have to be to develop enough vacuum to draw air through a break that would then bubble up to air on top of the column. If there was an obstruction, drawing oil into the plastic line would be difficult.
A test for cavitation on pumps with priming ports is to run the pump for a short time and then remove the priming port to check if air bubbles come out. I'm not sure if hooking plastic line to the pump output and pumping into a bucket would be an adequate test. If bubbles showed in the line during pumping or after the pump was shut down it might suggest cavitation. Anyway, I'm full of ideas but probably little actual help I suppose.
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-10-10 43648
I think the tube inside the transmission, such as the Yanmar YM1510 is unusual. I can't think of any other Yanmar that uses this method of drawing fluid to the pump.
Good idea using the clear plastic hose....had I read this before my experience with the 1510 it would have saved us a bunch of time!
What threw us for a loop was the pump worked so well once primed that we made the assumption that it must not be the problem. Seemed like a good assumption at the time..... ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-10 43649
I'm am not an expert on Fords, But heres my $0.02.
If there is a rubber hose used in the normal inlet plumbing of the pump, an inner seperation could be completely blocking the flow.
Hyd. pumps do get weak. And somewhere (The Dealer?) there should be a book that will give you measurements to assess pump wear.
In my expeirience, I've seen pretty rough pumps that would still draw and prime themselves.
You mentioned the dealer looked at the pump and said it was ok. sometimes visual inspection of Hyd. pumps is just not good enough.
Going to all the trouble with the hose and different elevations of a reservour will take some time, and although you are being logical in your theorys, they seem impractical. If you cannot find the knowledge you seek at the Ford Dealer, maybe he can at least give you the mfgr. of the pump in question, and you could contact them for assistance. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-11 43682
There is a short section of rubber hose on my 1710, and an internal separation sure would produce the symptoms. I’m not sure how likely an internal separation is, but even though the hose may be some distance from the filter, perhaps the same thing that dented the original filter also damaged the hose.
I think Tom was going to simulate differences in sump oil/pump height with the plastic hose to see if the pump can lift oil a similar height. Hours on the tractor probably is a pretty good indicator if the pump should be suspected, but a pump run while the oil is cavitating for awhile would take time off its service lift expectancy.
Couldn't agree more that rigging columns of oil over the tractor is impractical. Although such a test might be preferable if the only remaining option was splitting the tractor to check for an internal break in a suction line (for a tractor that has one). This Board seems to be place where theory, experience and learning come together in a pretty good mix. Hope everything here is interesting, everybody learns something and above all the problem gets figured out.
I ended up with about $0.10/hr. for several of my nightmarish Brit bike jobs. Sometimes black box maintenance (just start replacing things) is preferable if a problem can’t be figured. The time spent studying on it may make new parts seem cheap. Black box maintenance just isn’t very interesting or satisfying even if it does get things working. Easy for me to say I guess.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-11 43703
The thrill of the chase, is what makes us rock and roll, and it also makes dogs chase cars.
Rubber hoses to seperate, I've seen it many times, in two situations more han others.
The hose had been relaced at one time, and the wrong type hose, that was not resistant to oils.
Improper procedure when replaceing the hose. It was either kinked, or sometimes a screwdriver is driven between the hose and the barb , peircing the inner linning of the hose.
The filter in question may not be dented from an external force, it could have collapsed due to a vacume if the filter was between the hose and pump inlet.
Sometimes a hose inner sepparation will only cause a problem when flow volume reaches a certain point. Letting fluid flow freely to the pump, untill the pump is turning.
A pump operating under a slightly below normal intake flow minimums, will seem to work fine. Increased wear will occur, and the inner hose sepparation will only get a little worse. Finnaly, the the wind slams the door shut. and nothing will work. If the door was slammed shut in time, minimal pump wear will have occured.
I am no Ford expert, it could still be something else.
A cracked inlet tube would cause the same draw problem. Due to lack of facilities, the 'ole bucket and hose test may be the simplest diagnostics you can perform.
Just my thoughts...and GOOD LUCK!! ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-10-11 43713
Tom, I note you said " 1" tube " in your original post. If the sump tube is indeed a rigid (likely steel) tube check that the 'O' ring (or whatever type os seal is used) which (is supposed to) seal it to the pump is OK. If it does not seal it will either allow all the fluid in the sump tube to drain back down, or allow enough air to enter the tube to prevent self-priming, or even both.
Years ago we went in circles for ever looking for the cause of a similar situation with a payloader we had, if it sat for more than a few hours the pump had to be manually primed before it would do anything. Finally out of desperation we called the factory and got a hold of the factory's 'dealer service rep.' (a semi-retired mechanic with 40+ yrs. experience) who solved the problem in one sentence. The seal cost about $2.00, unfortunately it took 8 hrs. labour to swap it out.
Best of luck. ....
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| Tom Hank
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-10-14 43812
This weekend we hooked a clear plastic hose to the rubber connector just before the pump. It took about 5 minutes. We set the hose a low as we could below the tractor and even restricted the flow somewhat. The pump cleaned out two gallons of fluid and some injected air in less than a minute. The front lifter worked flawlessly until the fluid ran out.
We removed the manifold and closely inspected it for any crack. The sump was emptied and inspected for foreign material. It was clean. During inspection we found what looked like a hair line crack on the inside of the manifold where the fluid flows past. We reassembled everything and put fluid back in the sump. The O ring in the pipe was replaced and the pipe/manifold interface was sealed with RTV. When started the tractor the problem was still there as before. I ordered a manifold and gasket. I'll let you know if it worked. Tom ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-15 43839
Tom: At least the tone of your posts seems to show remarkable patients. If it were me, I'd be the one that would have to be check for a leaky manifold, because I'd sure be frothing by now. Luck, and I sure this fixes it. ....
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-18 43971
I am definately developing cracks in my determination.
A good friend of mine who is a mechanical engineer worked with me last night. We replaced the manifold, no help, we replaced the pump. The pump was definately stronger but still not working properly. It raised the bucket but the pump was cavitating like crazy. I have changed the fluid twice and the filter once. Blew through the pipe into the sump. No resistance incountered. I stuck my finger into the hole coming out of the sump area, no obstruction. This is a simple circuit. We have decided to change the filter once more assuming that it is getting clogged with the initial dirty fluid since I put it on before I did the first fluid change. The tractor had been setting for a while. It only has 123 hours but is six years old. If the filter does not work we are going to put a layer of high quality silicone everywhere that there could be a air leak. This thing is kicking my butt....Tom ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-18 43972
TOM HANKS.
Blowing through a tube or hose will usually not be nough to make any inner hose seperation evident. If there is a hose on the tractor in question. You have not indicated one way or another. I do not know the tractor well enough to know.
I believe your problem to be inside the trans. . It sounded like you took great effort in sealing up external fittings.
Before you split the tractor, you may want to find a way to put some air presser through some of the parts to find a leak. A little air, and a little soapy water may find the culprit.
Like i've said, I don't know fords that well, just trying to help. ....
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| ThomasG
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2002-10-21 44038
Tom: I've been without a computer for a few days and am still seriously limping. It's been an aggravation but not as serious as yours.
I'm about out of ideas on this one. However, I wonder if it's possible to take the plastic line from the oil filter nipple inside the filter housing directly to the pump. At least I think the nipple connects to the line that goes back to the cases. That should eliminate everything but the suction line from TX to the filter. Maybe a dealer parts guy could help with figuring what if any suction line parts are inside the cases.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-10-21 44043
A number of years ago we inherited a problem from another shop that is simuliar to this one I think. It was on a loader backhoe that seemed to have an air problem and after playing mechanic and changing valves, rebuilding cylinders and checking hoses, a dent was noticed on the Oil filter canister on the lid which faced the front of the tractor. There was no leak at all and no signs of it being the trouble but it could suck air in and it didn't leak! ....
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| Tom Hank
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2002-10-22 44074
Its Fixed. I changed the filter again. The first thing I did to troubleshoot this problem was to change the filter and it got clogged up. I think what happened is that the filter on the tractor before all this happened got knocked loose. This allowed a lot of foriegn material to be sucked into the system.???I changed the oil twice and filter twice. The second filter fixed the problem. I learned a lot. The main thing I learned is that doing preventive maintenance is important. I want to thank everyone for the help. Regards, Tom ....
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| TomG2
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2002-10-22 44076
Tom: That's really good news! I was starting to feel like it was happening to me.
The solution ended being the same as for a problem discussed here some years back. A hose had deteriorated and clogged the filter. The filter was changed but the new filter also clogged. There was a lot of tinkering (mostly with the relief valve) before a third filter was put on. However, symptoms of the other problem were hot frothy oil and a 3ph that lost power after an hour or so rather than no flow. I guess that my final testing thought of yesterday would have found the problem, but just changing the filter was a lot less work. Sometimes black-box maintenance comes through when testing just takes a lot of time and aggravation.
Hopefully nobody ever needs this experience again. However, in terms of symptoms I think it takes a pretty big leak in the suction hoses of most tractors before a pump immediately looses its prime. Another older problem discussed here ended up being a crack in the filter housing. It too produced frothy oil rather than no flow.
The huge aggravation absorbed during all of this probably detracts a lot from the eventual satisfaction of finally getting it fixed. However, a bright side is that nobody started splitting the tractor.
....
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