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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-07-03          29781

RE: Won’t start. There is some trouble with posts that contain single quotes ( ‘ ) in the subject line. I’m unable to post a response, so I’ll reply as a new post.Diesels have to spin fast in order to start. A battery in poor condition or corroded terminals and ground cable terminals may not allow the starter to spin the starter motor fast enough. I'd get a battery hydrometer and check the battery capacity and also clean the battery and starter terminals. The engine end of the ground cable shouldn't be neglected. Occasionally you hear of somebody replacing a ground cable with an automotive 'cheapie' from a box store. Many aren't heavy enough gauge for diesels and will give starting problems. The decompression lever lets the starter spin the engine faster. However, the lower compression doesn't produce as much heat. One technique is to pre-heat with glow plugs. Turn over the starter with the decompression pulled and then push it in after a moment. The idea is to get the engine turning fast and then use the engine inertia to keep it spinning after the compression is back on.

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BillBass
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 190 North Texas
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2001-07-03          29782

How old is your battery? Most likely it is either a weak battery or a bad connection. If you have checked all your battery cable connections (not just the battery end, but the other ends also) and it still does not turn over well, take your battery in to a parts store and have it checked. You do not have to go to a tractor store. Auto parts stores such as NAPA have replacement batterys and can check your old one. If the battery checks good, then it may be a starter problem. ....

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FarmerWannabe
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2001-07-03          29789

Thank you for the information. Dont know the age of the battery since it is used (although it doesnt look too old). I did clean off the posts this winter which did seem to help for colder weather starts. Since I am thinking about a new battery anyway it makes sense to take the old one in to get tested. Its ironic that my car battery has decided to act up as well!
Does the low water signal any problem?
I will let you know what I find out. Great tractor otherwise. ....

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mlmartin
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2001-07-03          29792

Low water in a battery can indicate overcharging. That doesn't seem to be the problem you are experiencing. -- Matthew ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-07-03          29795

Low water can indicate a problem if it is only in one cell. If all are down it may ony indicate the age or maintenance of the battery. We now have mantainance free batteries but the only lead acid batteries that do not require water are value regulated batteries. Normal seal batteries actually only reduce the rate of evaporation. A normal battery with low acid indicates age or abuse.
Valve regulated batteries are sold as car batteries primarily for restorations that do not get started very often. I do not know how they would fair in a tractor except that they would be less likely to short out (no mud)and would probably take more abuse.
The hardest thing on a battery is a complete discharge. This will reduce battery life. The valve regulated batteries have lower self discharge rates and better resistance to low charge levels.
Peters ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-07-04          29816

I replaced my battery last fall with an automotive type. The old battery was dead, I charged it for about an hour @ 30 amps (It took about 15 minutes to show any charge rate, which is normal for many fully-discharged batteries). I then switched to a 1-amp charger for 48 hours (A battery won't fully charge if the charge rate remains high). After charging, I checked battery capacity with a cheap hydrometer. The first three cells were shot and I didn't bother checking the rest. In selecting a battery that isn't a factory replacement, both the amp-hour and the cold-cranking amp (CCA) ratings are important. Diesel starters pull draw a lot of current, and battery has to be able to deliver adequate amps (that's the CCA rating). A repair manual should give starter motor amps specs. I believe that some maintenance-free batteries have relatively low CCA's for their size. It may take some looking to find a maintenance free battery the right size for the battery compartment that has a high enough CCA rating. Batteries with terminals in the centre of the case, rather than on an edge, probably work best for most tractors, and that could take some more looking, There was a discussion about batteries here awhile back. Among other things, the location of the vents is important. It's possible for acid fumes or leakage to ruin the radiator on many tractors. A marine or aircraft type battery is probably best. However, I selected a battery with centre terminals and fill caps. The vents are in the fills caps and face away from the radiator. The NH battery I removed also had vents in the fill-caps, so I don't believe I'm taking much of a risk in using this particular automotive battery. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-07-04          29819

Many aircraft have gone to value regulated Pb acid batteries to reduce the risk of acid leakage.
At present there are very few Pb acid battery manufactures in the US. Johnson Control, Dekka (Penn Manufacturing), Johnson controls, Exide, Delco and GNB produce 99% of the batteries. Batteries are branded with the numberous names that distribute batteries. Some like Sears or Interstate switch manufactures to achieve the better price, for them.
The price of a battery has stayed constant since the 70's. Some of this is due to the automation, recycling and new battery separators with has reduce costs, but some is due to the reduction in thickness of the Pb plates, the thickness of the battery separator and the reduction in the amount of acid.
One needs a battery that has high cold cranking amps, is build to be low discharged (thicker separators) and is built to be bounce around.
On the short side, Dekka is the OEM battery for 90% the large equipment manufactures and road trucks. They tend to be conservative in their manufacturing and use thicker battery separators.
The other suggestion is the use of a valve regulated Pb acid (VRLA) battery. These are better for all these application and have no acid leakage. The rolled batteries have high CCAs, these are the batteries used in the small portable jump start packs. They are also used on the electric wheel chairs. On the down side the VLRA batteries are expensive.
As many of the tractors are not used too often the low discharge rate maybe something that would appeal to the average compact tractor owner.
Peters ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-07-05          29823

Peters: Good info--I didn't know the details of battery manufacturing. I suspect that many batteries available from 'box stores' are designed 'down' since most people drive only on pavement. It might be good if some manufacturer made an off-road battery. However for all I know, more expensive batteries may tend be more rugged in addition to what ever else they do. I do know that ruggedness is an issue. A locally famous road, which is about 25 miles of severe washboard, finished off the battery in my 1/2 ton. My wife wasn't happy about me going fast enough to smooth out the washboard so I just took the pounding. A couple of days later, I tried to start the truck. The battery was dead and wouldn't charge. The new battery didn't come from a box store. Next time I make the trip, I'll use of bunch of old logging roads that get most of the way there. The unmaintained logging roads are better than the township road, which takes a direct, but unfortunate, route. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-07-05          29833

Glad the info is of use. I worked for a battery separator manufacturer, one of two in the world and have a couple of patents on separator tech.
In general the automotive OEM batteries ie. Delco, Ford, Chrysler tend to be better constructed than the Walmart special. They must make it through the first 36 months. The after market batteries tend to reduce the quality, separator thickness and plate weight.
The VRLA battery would be better for the rough road. I have seen the after market avertised as a truck battery. Probably just the same quality as a regular OEM battery.
....

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Rob Munach
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2001-07-05          29838

I recently purchased a Champion Vortex battery for my 790. It is my understanding that it contains 6 cells of fiberglass mats rolled into cylinders that act as a sponge to keep the acid absorbed. As such, it can be used in any position or dropped and broken without the acid leaking out. It was expensive ($120), but it seems to have fixed my failing battery problem. ....

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Peters
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2001-07-05          29840

The Champion Vortex is the rolled VRLA (valve regulated lead acid) I mentioned before. It should have high CCA as it has large plate surface areas. It is quite forgiving to high discharge along with the other things mentioned.
I'm glad to see some on has tried one as it seem like a good application. It seems that I have replaced the battery in the tractor at least once a year. But then I have two.
Please keep us posted as the battery in my compact decided to act up today. Gremlins. ....

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FarmerWannabe
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2001-07-30          30509

Thanks for all the input. I ended up just buying a new battery and everything seems to be working fine. I do however have a couple quick questions re my B7200D.
1) When I installed the new battery I heard a buzzing alarm sound from under the dash until I started the tractor. The key wasn't even in the ignition. When I shut the tractor off the noise did not continue and has stopped completely. I have never heard this sound before. Does anyone know what it is?
2) Is there any reason I should disconnect one battery cable from the battery? Is this a good idea if I DON'T have a short or is this just a workaround if I have a short and don't know it?? ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-01          30553

The buzzing may have been the regulator. If the buzzing stopped, there's no battery drain, the battery is staying charged and is not getting hot, then everything probably is working OK.
The regulator and alternator are connected to the battery all the time and irrespective of starter switch position. Malfunction of either can provide a current path to ground and discharge a battery. There are also other potential paths to ground in any part of the wiring. If there's any doubt, a VOM can be used to check for battery drain. With everything off, the ground cable can be disconnected and an amp meter connected between the battery post and ground. If appreciable drain exists, one fuse at a time can be removed to check if the drain is in a fused circuit downstream from the fuses. I measured my battery drain at 1.2 ma. That probably means I've got a slightly doggy alternator rectifier, but I'll live with it.
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2001-08-01          30562

Tom, I had the same problem (alternator draw) on one of our large payloaders we that we also use for snow removal all winter. I finally solved the problem of dead batteries at 3 am during a blizzard by installing a continous duty relay (originally designed to power off-road lighting) in the charge circuit, when the ignition is on the alternator is part of the circuit, when the key goes 'off' the relay opens and 'disconnects' the offending alternator. The relay was $6.95, the alternator was going to $300, it was an easy choice. Problem solved. Best of luck. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-02          30586

Murf: That's a real clever solution--certainly more clever than a $300 alternator. It's been observed in the past that you probably should have a whole flock of patents. Between this and the lime spreader, I guess it's a new chapter in the 'Murf's patents he should have book.' My 1.2 ma drain probably doesn't warrant such a relay unless it gets worse. I keep a 1-amp charger on the battery when I'm not using the tractor for awhile. If I wanted to install a relay, I recognize why 'continuous duty' is specified, and I guess the relay should be rated a bit above the alternator's maximum output. The only downside I can see is the draw of the relay itself, which probably isn't much of an issue except for tractors with a lot of lighting. Depending on the relay draw, a starter switch controlled circuit would have to be found that had capacity to run the relay
....

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keoke
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2001-08-04          30630

Tom, on a car, anything less then 50ma as a parasite load is considered not to be a problem. Some manufactures spec even up to 100ma (1/10 amp) as ok. A favorite source of low parasite draw is a fine coat of alternator brush wear carbon spread over the positive rectifier diodes in the alternator. This especially true in areas of high humidity. In autos computer memory is responsible for most of the parasite drain.

george ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-04          30633

George: Yes, I figure that it would take some years to fully discharge a 75-amp hour battery at 1.2ma. I imagine the internal discharge rate is much higher. I do appreciate your level explanation here and also regarding the fuel gauge problem (Stan as well). When I thought about it, I realized that a gauge, being a current device, would have to work from a reference voltage. I am sort of surprised to find the device (zenor diode maybe) as part of the sender in the tank instead of as part of the gauge behind the dash. Oh well, maybe it does make sense since I have to remove my fuel tank anyway to work on most things behind the dash. ....

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keoke
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2001-08-04          30635

Tom, a solid state component on a sending unit is most likely to be a 'thermistor, a temp sensitive resistor. These are used to trigger a low fuel lamp on the dash. The thermistor provides a ground path for the lamp when exposed to air (warm) and not covered with fuel. I did not know they had these warning lamps on tractors. Maybe they are using an automotive sender and simply not employing the thermistor circuit.
On the fuel gauge, some units have the constant voltage regulator built into the gauge. These gauges will have three wires plus a ground lead going attached.

george ....

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