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StephenR
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2005-12-03          120329

I picked up some 2006 brochures the other day at the Toyota dealer. One thing I found interesting was that a 5 speed automatic transmission gets better gas mileage than the 6 speed manual. I asked the service tech and they said "it's all computer controled to get the best mileage." I find that hard to believe. There is always slippage in an automatic due to nature of the fluid drive, or so I thought, as opposed to the engine being in direct contact with the drive train in the manual. The difference was 1 mpg better in both city and highway stats. If anyone can enlighten me on the new automatics it would be appreciated. I love my stick and this seems like one more thing "The Man" is going to take away.

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kwschumm
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2005-12-03          120336

Those are probably EPA figures. Take them with a grain of salt. The EPA doesn't actually test for mileage. I read they measure tailpipe emissions and compute the mileage from there. That seems to make sense since automakers can reduce emissions more on automatics with computer controlled shifts. My guess is real world numbers are different. We bought a 05 Highlander automatic and the mileage is consistently 3-4 mpg less than EPA figures. On our last two vehicles with sticks the EPA numbers were pretty much right on. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-03          120338

By the way, if towing is an issue check the tow ratings of both. On some vehicles, like the Ford Ranger, the tow ratings of the auto is significantly higher than the stick. That surprised the heck out of me after I had already purchased one. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-03          120339

Some of the newer automatic lock up on every gear to improve mileage rather than just overdrive. The computer shifts to provide optimum emissions. Some models are available only as autos in CA. ....

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Toolin
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2005-12-03          120340

I can believe it. The new computer controlled automatics work extremely well. While it may be possible to "outshift" the auto with a stick, you would have to be paying close attention at all times to differing driving conditions to do that. The automatic will do it "automatically" without the driver even having to think about it. The slip in an auto trans is factored in to when the computer decides to shift and with "lockup" torque converters there is no slip under light load. Manual shifting can be fun and if you like to do that then go for it. It is just that the auto trans of the last 10 years are nothing like the older ones. I don't know if a vehicle with a factory tow package is even available with a stick shift. The autos really are that good for all around use. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-12-05          120410

"By the way, if towing is an issue check the tow ratings of both. On some vehicles, like the Ford Ranger, the tow ratings of the auto is significantly higher than the stick. That surprised the heck out of me after I had already purchased one."

Ken, I think that's due to the necessary clutch slippage needed with today's high geared transmissions and rear ends. My F150 is rated low for towing in the same way. It's not that it can't tow just as much as the automatic. It's just that many people cannot drive a clutch anymore. It takes some finesse to get a big load started.
Dave ....

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Chief
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2005-12-05          120413

If you plan to do more than very occasional towing with any degree of load; DO get the stick. Automatics of ANY make are NOT up to towing PERIOD, unless the transmission and torque converter are significantly modified. Automatics also reduce brake pad life as compared to a propery driven manual shift. ....

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StephenR
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2005-12-05          120414

What all you guys say makes a lot of sense. I was unaware of lockup torque converters but I'm old school. My assumption was that the EPA test may not take into account the operators abilities. Oh well, I have to get my '92 Pickup to 250,000 mls. before I start thinking about something new. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-05          120430

Dave, you're probably right about the clutch slippage. The Ranger has a small clutch. But the transmission is also known to be weak with some major flaws. I've tried looking for one in junkyards and they're hard to come by. Not sure if that's because they are in demand or just because most Rangers come with automatics. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-12-05          120436

Ken, Yes, some of the rangers had weak manual transmissions (maybe all?). I almost bought one with the tranny out because the rest of it was in such nice shape. The salvage yard guys just laughed. :(
Dave ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-05          120442

My old '94 Ranger hadthe synchros go out of the manual tranny around 110k miles. You used to be able to outdo an auto with a manual transmission and the talent to drive one. But the computer can do the math for you much faster. I shouldn't be surprised the autos are starting to get better mileage. Now if they'll just start using diesels or better fuel efficient engines!!

Example - '05 Ford Expedition driving on I29 into a 30+ mph head wind knocked the mileage down to the high 12's, low 13's. Man, that sucked!! I was so pissed seeing that mileage and remembering the idiot salesguy respond to my question about a diesel engine in it: "Why would you want that?" ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-05          120451

The synchros in my 98 were feeling balky, which is why I was looking in junkyards for a new tranny. I figured to have one rebuilt and then do a swap in a day. Haven't found one yet but the syncros are behaving better now. I drive like a grandma and change transmission fluid every 15k miles so there's no excuse for this. I've been driving sticks my whole life and never lost a transmission yet, but this might be the first. Wish I could afford a new truck right now, but it will have to wait until the tractor is paid off in six months. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-12-05          120455

"it will have to wait until the tractor is paid off in six months."

I hear ya Ken. Same here but more like 24 months. My 98 F150 now has 209K with no problems. I'm shooting for 300K.

Do you really change transmission fluid every 15K? You are talking about a manual aren't you?
Dave ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-05          120463

Yep, every 15k miles. I do it because I know this transmission is weak and because there is a flaw in the way the case is sealed. On top of the transmission there are three rubber plugs that can dry up and leak. Here in Oregon it rains all the time and I worry that water will get into it through those plugs so transmission fluid is cheap insurance. Some guys pull the transmission and pound in freeze plug discs to replace the rubber plugs but I just change the fluid frequently. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-12-06          120519

Re fuel economy - When you want something done accurately every time - get a computer to do it - they dont make decisions and dont have moods - they just follow a set of instructions. The instructions may not be completely appropriate every time but 95% of the time they are. Also how many of us know exactly where (on the rev counter) you get the best fuel economy in each gear - the on board computer does, its monitoring that stuff all the time. ....

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StephenR
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2005-12-06          120532

Actually Ann, if you know at what rpm your engine produces the max. torque, that is the sweet spot for fuel economy. For my truck it's 2800 rpms, slightly under 65 mph. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-06          120536

Ever driven an automatic that is constantly hunting for the right gear? Or an automatic that waits a few seconds to downshift when you punch the throttle? Most irritating. The computer cannot always do it best in the real world. It cannot know what the drivers intent is. The programmer can bias the code for performance or economy, but not both at the same time. On the other hand most drivers know when they need to punch it and also when to back off. Until our cars are totally computer operated it will always be a compromise. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-07          120602

kwschumm - the computer is only as good as it's programming. Vehicles today are designed as a compromise because the single program has to work in a vehicle whether it's being driven in January in a Canadian province or in August through the Mexican deserts. Hence, the nice aftermarket programing changes for things like towing, fuel economy, etc. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-07          120606

Yep, it's a compromise no doubt. A programmer can build some adaptability in - if the budget and schedule allows and the cpu resources and necessary inputs are available. Pointy headed managers and bean counters often prevent this. As a programmer I know all about them :( ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-12-07          120610

OK - But as stated earlier the automatic STILL gets better fuel economy on average, so not withstanding all the programmer biases and other objections raised, the computer still beats a human as a gear shifter for this objective. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-07          120625

I would agree that a computer controlled automatic programmed for best economy *could* beat a stick. My opinion is that in the real world they don't. I'm very skeptical that this Toyota with a five speed automatic would beat the economy of the six speed manual in daily driving. EPA mileage estimates are often wrong. Look at the recent debate about bogus EPA numbers on hybrids due to their methodology of computing mileage rather than measuring it. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-07          120628

I agree there are a few that have EPA ratings higher with the auto than the stick. This may partly be the optimization of the auto to the model vs the off the self manual. I must admit when I spent the weekend looking recently, for my sister's small SUV or 5 door I did not find one higher with the auto. Naturally these were not high end machines, but we did cover Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Ford and Chrysler.
For towing the manual is better primarily for the braking effect. I agree with Ken the number for the auto are not necessarily real. ....

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oneace
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2005-12-07          120641

Yeah buy an automatic for PSD and pull with it. See how many trannys you go through with in 36,000 Mi. Then they have the balls to tell you "You are not supposed to pull heavy loads with this truck." But then try to find a Dealer that stocks the manual trans PSD lol. Then you try to order one and they tell you it will be six months and you can only get basically a strip down version. ....

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AV8R
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2005-12-07          120644

Find a new dealer, Oneace. Thats BS to be treated like that. ....

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Chief
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2005-12-07          120646

The most factual and convincing case for manual transmissions is the trucking industry. They are in business to make money and move freight via the MOST efficient AND reliable means. Nearly all commericial freight trucks are manual transmission. There are a very few smaller freight forwarding trucks out there with automatics but they are the exception. The BIGGEST reason the auto industry pushes automatic transmissions on the public is the 98% of folks out there on the road don't know how to drive much less drive a manual shift transmission. This is the same "logic" used by the military. Pvt. Snuffy can tear up a solid iron ball with a balsa wood hammer. If you could have seen the number of destroyed manual transmissions and burned up clutches laying in the motorpools, you would then understand why Uncle Sammy chose automatic transmissions.

If you want to get a classic deer in the headlights look; try and instruct the typical driver on how to double clutch, how to properly upshift or down shift.

The big problem with automatic transmissions especially when used for towing applications is how long and with how much throttle position the torque converter can hold lock up. No automatic transmission has lockup torque coverter capability is ALL forward gears excluding 1st. There is lies the problem. If you want to demonstrate it to yourself, try hooking up to a 10,000 lb. to 12,000 lb. load and pull it through steep mountain or hilly roads. The transmission will be constantly hunting for gears on long steep grades. The so called "tow/haul" mode just delays the inevitable the converter eventually will unlock and the trans. fluid BBQ begins. I don't care how many trans. oil coolers you have. When I come to a hill I gain speed in anticipation for the steep grade and go for full throttle pedal and hold each gear as long as I can and shift gears at rpms that still allow me to remain in an adequate torque/hp range. This is impossible with an automatic. If you firewall the engine, the transmission will nearly always attempt to downshift to a lower gear. When you let off the pedal to allow the rpms to come down out of the stratosphere, then the engine is not in an adequate rpm range to pull the load. Then the gear hunting starts. I normally get over 22 mpg with my 6 spd. manual Cummins powered Dodge; on ocassion up to 26 mpg. You won't get that with automatic. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-07          120647

Randy;
Makes you wonder what we have in the army today, when they pulled the boys out of the field and trained them to drive deuce and a half 55 year ago.
I have a friend who was in the Red Ball and my uncle was driving on the Canadian front through Italy, France, Netherlands and Germany. Are we getting too soft? ....

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Chief
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2005-12-07          120650

Eric, I don't think it is so much the people in the military as is it the idiots that make the decisions and how we as a nation bring our kids up and how the military trains and conditions them. In this age of a "don't ask, don't tell", "warm and fuzzy - touchy feely" mentality can't really put it on the young folks entirely. It was my experience that most soldiers wanted to do their best and be successful. It was the idiots making the decisions that frustrated them. I guess some things never change. ;O) ....

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Peters
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2005-12-07          120651

I guess from my prospective the two fingered computer mentality really dumbs down the populous.
I had one young man with an honours degree in chemistry to whom righty tighty lefty loosy was a new concept. I paid him like MacDonalds for two years while I trained him. He was worth the time, but had be raised by his mother and been allowed to play computer games and not much else. He understood his limitations, some don't and I guess they make them officers now? ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-08          120679

Even as this moves off on a tangent, the argument for auto vs stick an fuel mileage depends a lot on the situation. I opted for the auto on my F250 because my then wife-to-be (I did upgrade her to the actual wife title) struggled with learning a manual transmission. Plus my towing was typically going to be limited to less than 4,000 lbs. If I was going to use it predominantly as a towing vehicle at higher loads, I would have opted for the manual.

From the military's perspective, it probably because more cost effective to go with automatics rather than face the incerasing cost of repairing the manual transmissions. As the US population shifts to less mechanical inclination, I am sure their recruits' ability to operate a manual transmission has greatly diminished. If I ran a commercial business, I would have to consider the cost of a manual vs the cost of an auto especiall in repairs, longevity, etc.

But for the average joe blow out there, a computer controlled auto will beat you on fuel mileage. But maybe not if you are towing a 12,000 lb camper across the rockies... All depends on the scenario. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-08          120680

another comparison I thought of right after I hit submit was the gear vs HST arguement for tractors. I went with HST because my wife can handle a simple forward/reverse pedal combination. Meaning she is less likely to ram my shop or the house because she panicked and forgot to press the clutch in. But then, I'm not working the unit hard by running a subsoiler, etc. If I tried to do everything a gear tarctor can do for 90% of it's usage, I'd be doing some damage. Just like auto vs manual in vehicles. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-09          120726

Randy.. as you know I live where it is high and hilly.

When pulling heavy loads through mountain passes with my Tundra I just find the range with the automatic tranny and lock it in there.

When I am climbing Donner Pass with the 5th wheel in tow I put it in "2" and leave it there. It will do 60 mph all day at the peak HP rpm.

Coming down the other side I can lock it in the same gear and never touch the brakes for miles.

Don't all automatics work that way?
....

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Peters
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2005-12-09          120728

And what temperature your transmission cooler when you reach the top? With the manual and the Cummins I travelled the passes out of California (north to Vancouver and east to AL) with 4000lb load in the back. I was in 5th gear both up and down the passes and never touched the brakes. ....

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120736

Mark, if your 5th wheel has any amount of weight,your transmission temps must be near off the scale. If I am not mistaken, the trans. torque converter in your Tundra has lock up capability in OD and 3rd. I doubt that it has lock up capability in 2nd gear. That means the torque convert is slipping against the fluid during the entire climb up the hill and generating phenominal amounts of heat.

To give you some idea of how much heat can be generated. Up until I got fed up with my 3/4 ton 93 Suburban and traded it in on the Dodge Cummins; I used it to tow my Sea Ray. I estimate that the load was somewhere between 9,000 & 10,000 lbs. My Suburban had the HD tow package, 4.10 posi rear axle, the the 4L80E HD auto. trans. I further modified the trans. system with an extra aux. external trans. oil cooler, added a Mag-Hytech double deep oil pan (which doubled my trans. fluid capacity) and ran Amsoil synthetic trans. oil. The torque converter had lock up capability in OD and D (3rd). Just towing my boat 45 miles through a variety of moderate TN hills would heat the fluid up to the point that the transmission would expelled hot oil out of the vent tube. The problem was that the truck did not have the power to hold the torque converter in lockup, nor would the computer allow it even with the chip that boosted engine out put and shift points as well as firming up shifts. The result was that I would either have to gradually back off the throttle in hopes of holding lock up on the torque converter long enough to make it to the top of the hill or as usually happened have to gradually keep increasing throttle to keep any type of minimum speed going up the hill. I would be in 2nd gear doing 25 mph with the throttle to the floor. When I would get home, I had a real nice undercoating of Amsoil synthetic trans. oil on my truck undercarriage and my boat hull. I have NEVER had an issue pulling any load with the Cummins and the 6 speed manual. Even the GM Duramax diesel pickups have this problem with the Allison transmission. GM used to offer a manual ZF 6 speed with their Duramax diesel pickups but stopped doing this early on (I suppose due to the high failure rate). This issue may have been resolved by now. As I said previously, there is NO OEM automatic transmission that comes as OEM equipment offered in the US that is truly capable of adequate towing capacity. You can move up to vehicles over 1 ton capacity but these are not vehicles that the average bear drives. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-09          120756

Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

My reading has shown that it is the constant shifting up and down that overheats the fluid.

The 5th wheel weighs over 5000 pounds and the tractor and trailer go closer to 6000 pounds.

I don't have a temp gauge on the transmission, just a warning light. I have never seen it illuminated.

I think it only locks up in OD. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-09          120759

Maybe we should leave this to Randy as he certainly has more experience with these couplings. Certainly when using air as the working fluid.
If the transmission is not locked it is a viscous coupling. The impellor of one side pushing against the other. Work is being done on the liquid and it heats. The work will also be placed on the fluid when in 2nd comming down the hill.
Degradation generally doubles for each 10 degree C (18 F)increase in temperature. Therefore for example you come up the hill and the temperature increases from 120 F to 220 F the fluid degrades at 5 X its normal working rate. ....

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120760

Mark, watch your tachometer closely when towing in this configuration. If you watch the tach closely, you will notice the rpms jump up about about 200 rpm without the transmission downshifting to a lower gear as you gradually add more throttle. This 200 rpm jump indicates that the computer has unlocked the torque converter and it is now in fluid coupling mode which generates serious heat. As you add more throttle to maintain road speed, the transmission will eventually downshift to a lower gear and you are correct. This adds to the problem. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-09          120775

Realizing experts have addressed this and I am just passing along info...living on flat land there are many dump trucks running around here with auto trans. Have been for years with good service. Would also hate to have to find manual trans in farmers pickup here and construction pickup. The farmers know manaul trans and now they are buying tractors for true farming with auto trans. I have a tractor with HST and it will pull find (yes have subsoiled with it), just ues the proper range and not try to control it with light foot on high range.

kt ....

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Chief
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2005-12-10          120780

Hydrostatic drive multi-gear range tractor transmissions and automotive automatic transmissions are apples and oranges. Totally different and unrelated working off of different principals. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-10          120789

So let me re-phrase the question.

You are hauling a big load uphill. OD is out of the question.... it just will not stay there, not enough power.

So it's in 3rd some of the time but it can't hold road speed there either and about every 30-45 seconds it downshifts into second to maintain the speed. You have 40 miles of such road ahead of you. Now what?

It is never going to achieve any sort of lock-up on the torque converter.... do you just let it shift up and down twice a minute?

This is where I lock it in 2nd and hold at a constant 4500 rpm's and 60 mph, let it climb the pass and hope those double tranny coolers will do their work.

I won't let it hunt back and forth between 3rd and OD either. When it starts doing that I lock it in 3rd until things level out.

Don't you think that this is easier on the engine and drive train? ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-10          120790

There was no reference in my earlier post auto trans and HST were the same. I thought the reference to the HST in tractor pulling subsoiler would have been realized it was in reference to an earlier post in this same thread about HST not having been used for such heavy work by another.


Now, really are they apples and oranges? Are you sure they are not just different variety of apples? Maybe orange and grapefruit? ....

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Chief
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2005-12-10          120792

Mark, in your case, it sounds to me like you are doing everything you can do to minimize wear and tear. You are pretty much doing what I finally learned to do with my Suburban before I traded it in. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-10          120794

If the Tundra was available with a V-8 and a manual trans, I would go get one.

....

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Peters
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2005-12-10          120796

K - I grew up in the mountains of B.C. and only saw one truck with an automatic, a Hayes HDX. Equipping a truck for flat land and in hilly of mountainous terrain are two different things entirely. Freightliner trucks were built specifically because none of the flat landers could create trucks for the West. I had a friend that worked for Jacobs; 10 year ago over Jacob’s history more than 80% of their sales had been in B.C.
A truck equipped for transporting gravel or grain on the prairies can not cut it in the mountains. Some one purchased a late model Ford gravel truck from the prairies with a gas engine and brought it to Gibsons thinking he was going to make a buck. It sat for years with a for sale sign on it on the highway.
The transmission in the HDX, an off road truck, was not exactly an automatic but automatic clutch. I don't know of any road trucks with a V16 Diesel. I believe it locked up in each gear. The operator had to shift gears but with no clutch.
Maybe Randy knows more about these transmissions. I have never driven an auto large truck, only stick and only been near the HDX. I have driven large rubber tired loaders, but they HST not automatics. ....


Link:   HDX

 
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Chief
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2005-12-10          120800

You got me Eric. Some of those monster logging trucks were powered with everything from a 290 hp Cummins to a Cat 3412 to a Detroit 16V92. Don't know much about them. The guys that were logging our property had an old Osh Kosh powered by an old 290 Cummins. It was a roving oil leak. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-10          120817

Stephen...was your question on a Toyota Tundra? I have a 2004 model and did not know either of the trans you mentioned were available. A point that also affect gas mileage I don't think has been touched on is rear axle ratio. It could be the auto is mated to a higher ratio rear end. It has been done by some mfgs.

Kwschumn....in looking at a small pickup a few years ago I was told the towing range with the manual was less, as they just could not fit large enough clutch in the body of the truck.

Peters...you said some new autos lock in each gear....if that is so and you have that type of trans then that would solve the overheating issue Chief is hitting on, correct?
I fully agree with you that a vehicle equiped for my flat land (east coast) may not preform well in even the Applichians much lest the Rockies. By the same token a towing package for those areas make no sense for someone that only runs flat land or very seldom hit any mountains.

Chief...as to the difference between the HST and auto and manual.. no doubt each is different..but each does have their place and if used properly (which is where much disagreement seems to be here) works well. One of those issues is not overloading what ever the package is.

It is hard to believe that so many mfgs have a similar stand on towing with autos and they are all wrong. This being U.S. and foreign companies.

Someone mentioned not finding a pickup with manual trans at their dealership and it was told they need to find another dealership. Don't come to my part of the world if looking for the manual either in pickups either.

Now...are there some sorry auto trans out there, yep. It has been said here there are some sorry manual trans and no one has disagreed. My brother has had a lot of trouble with a certain U.S. brand of pickup with auto. They just did not hold up for his towing. Now..he thinks the light model should be able to tow the 10,000 load on a trailer. Sorry, you can over load a bulldozer also, even on flat land.

Someone said if they could get a V8 Tundra with manual they would...not sure on their packaging now but I think they offered that on their basic pickup.

May each of you find safe towing and good gas mileage.
kt ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-10          120822

The base Tundra is a V6 - you can get a stick with that engine but not with the V8. ....

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StephenR
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2005-12-10          120824

Mr. Thompson,

These specs are on the Tacoma. Manual transmissions are only offered certain on packages so I'll copy from what's in the broucher. All specs are (city/hwy)

2.4 liter 4 cyl.
2wd:
man - 20/27
auto - 21/26

4.0 liter V6
2wd:
man - 16/21
auto - 18/22
4wd:
man - 16/20
auto - 17/21

All,

Reading from all your experiences, I stick with stick. My wifes '91, auto 4-Runner exhibits those same hunt and peck tendances that leave me saying, "Just let me do it". ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-12-12          120893

Manual trans in a half ton truck or less are unfortunately not made to tow much of anything. The five speeds are geared for highway driving. First gear is very high in my F150 and suited mainly for stoplight drag racing. With no "granny gear" it requires alot of clutch slipping to get the load started. You have to get a 3/4 ton or bigger truck to get a suitable manual transmission.
Dave ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2005-12-12          120897

They started that trend some years ago.

I had a 79 Ford E-150 van. It had a straight six and a 4-on-the-floor manual tranny.

The ONLY rear end you could get with that combo was a 2.73:1

1st gear topped out at 50+ mph: Not what you'd call a towing wonder and it varied between useless and dangerous on ice.

I was looking for economy and that is all I got. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-12-12          120901

As Mark mentions, it's all about the overall gear combinations.

In my dually, an F-350 PSD, with the 6 spd. manual and a 3.73 rear end, if I take it to the governor, it comes out of 2nd heading for 3rd at 60+mph, and I still have 3 more gears to go! But I spec'd it for reasonable power for towing, while maintaining a modicum of economy.

On the other hand, we have an F-550 in the fleet now, also PSD, although the new 6.0 litre not the 7.3, and a 6 speed gear box. The difference is though, this one has a 5.38 rear end.

The difference is unreal. In first gear (a Granny Creeper) even into the governor you have to get out and look back at it to see if it's moving. But in all fairness, it will start nearly anything rolling, even at idle.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-12          120909

Around here.... the Rubicon Trail is right over the ridge.... that is called a Rock Crawler.

I want to get my Samurai to crawl like that at idle speeds. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-12          120919

Murf, when I wa a volunteer foreman, we had a truck with a water tank on the back. It was geared so low you could spin the rear tires in 1st gear with a load of water in it. I forget what it was, been a few years. It was cool to drive but didn't have the highest top speed. ....

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