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TC-30 First Impressions

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boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
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2003-04-10          52945

I have now had my TC30 for exactly one week. When I tested it at the dealership it had .3/Hr on the clock. When I took delivery it had .7/Hr. and it now has 15.4 hours. I have done a lot of mowing with a 60" rotary cutter, some loader work, and some minor material spreading with a rear blade (I don't have a box scraper yet, but soon). I like the spring-ride seat (very comfortable) but it would be nice if it had a swivel. I like the flat (steel), uncluttered rear fenders (provide a very nice support for my forarm when leaning over seeing how close I can get while mowing along an 800' irrigation line). Ilove the 9x3 trans (the shift lever is on the dash just to the left of the steering wheel and 2nd and reverse are in direct line so that I don't even need to look when shifting from forward to reverse - works great when I'm backing the mower in and out of tight spots). Also, I don't even have to take my hand off of the wheel to shift (very nice) all steering and shifting is done with the left hand. The 7308 loader has worked flawlessly and picks up a full 60" bucket of gravel just fine (unsure of the weight I've had in the bucket). The pasture I mowed was very rough in spots so the fastest I could go was mid-range second gear. In the next week or so I will see how the tractor pulls my 14" two bottom plow (I'll let you know). By the way, my wife mowed some of the pasture (the tractor is actually hers) and she wanted to know why we waited so long to buy one (a compact tractor that is - she's afraid to use my old JD 50). One thing that this tractor does not have is a Parking Brake Warning (Idiot) light. After stopping and getting off and then back on the tractor, I resumed mowing and noticed a slight gear type, whining noise for about 50 yards before I noticed that I had forgotten to release the Parking Brake. After releasing the brake - no more noise. The good news is that the tractor has plenty of power (mower+brake). The bad news is that I now know why some people call that an Idiot light(because Idiots like me sometimes need one).

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sweetbrier
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 oregon
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2003-04-10          52954

Congrates on the new tractor ..mine has about 25 hrs on it so far and the only thing i was didipointed about was the loader wont lift the front end of the ground ...you can roll the bucket to do it ..might need the hydro pressure checked ...what did it cost you with the 7308 loader on it ..... wondered what the diff in pricing was .... ....

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john.
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2003-04-11          52958

sounds great boatman! im real interested in how well it bush hogs with a 5' hog,i noticed sweet said his wouldnt lift the front off the ground with the loader,how about yours? some other threads said to bump up the pressure or something like that.i belive it was using a gauge so you didnt go over the pressure ratings.have fun,john! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-11          52966

SB: My loader lifts the front wheels fine when the bucket is angled down but it won't when the bucket is flat. My particular loader just doesn't lower that much. Holding down-pressure with the lift with the bucket flat takes a bit of weight off the wheels and then the pressure relief valve opens. The valve opens because the cylinders are at the limit of their travel rather than because the hydraulics lack power.

I think that a fair number of loaders are like mine. If you haven't already, I'd try raising the front with the lift when the bucket is angled down before I'd start thinking about adjusting the relief pressure. I've also heard that the lift on some loaders just won't raise the wheels on some tractors. Adjusting the relief may improve the power available and that's what should be done if the pressure is below spec. Raising the pressure above spec is done but then the owner takes some additional responsibility for safety and equipment damage.
....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-04-11          52987

NH loaders that I have seen look like they are mechanically limited on the downstroke as Tom discussed. I have a 16LA, and the main loader arms just don't go that low to lift off the front end. But when you tilt the bucket down, it will lift the front end easily with either the bucket or main cylinders.

Don't assume that the pressure is low in the hydraulic circuit. It is not advisable to boost the hydraulic pressure beyond the factory specs and would probably void your warranty. There are also safety concerns. The 7308 is a very capable loader without hotrodding it. ....

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boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
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2003-04-11          52990

Sweetbrier, The TC-30:$11850 (included R4 tires w/calcium chloride). The 7308 loader:$3000 (included 60" HD bucket with capability for bolt-on edge).
John, I'm using a 60" King Kutter Rotary Cutter. I have mowed 7 acres of thick, overgrown,uneven, wet pasture including some brush. Both TC-30 and mower have worked flawlessly (the pasture almost looks like a golf course now -what a difference). The loader will not lift the front end off of the ground unless the bucket is angled down. It is not that the hydraulics are weak - it's just the design limitations. It will lift the front end off of the ground easily by rolling the bucket or by simply angling the bucket first (either cylinders will lift the front end). ....

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drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2003-04-11          53005

Sweetbrier, I have had several discussions on other threads about turning up loader pressure. Although I may not agree with others when it comes to saftey and warranty issues(my pressure was turned up by my dealer)I can respect their opinions. I totally disagree when someone tells you not to assume the loader pressure is low. My 7308 would also not lift the front up without curling the bucket nor would it lift very much. The loader is limited in how low it can go, but if you put something about 6" high under a level bucket it should raise the front. My loader would not, so I had the dealer check the pressure. It was over 300psi low from the factory. I am a doctor and I would never tell a patient NOT to assume a symptom could mean they have a problem unless the proper testing to prove otherwise was done. I would definitly have it checked. I had my pressure turned up and now the loader can lift well over 2000lbs. If it is low you can decide if you want to boost past factory settings or not. good luck! ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-04-11          53013

I guess that given that logic, Doc, if you prescribed an antibiotic or other drug, I should take more than you recommend to get more action out of the drug and get better quicker.

Actions have consequences. Cranking up the pressure on a hydraulic system is a safety risk for both man and machine. And as you say, you are no expert.

I have read your statements before where you have said that the best safety device on the tractor is the operator, and I do agree with you on that point. However, I also believe that it is irresponsible behavior to suggest that it is OK run hydraulic pressures at levels beyond what the designers and engineers specify.
....

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drcjv.
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2003-04-12          53020

AC unfortunatly you missed the analogy. It would be more like you told me you had back pain and I ASSUMED it was a sprain/strain without the the proper testing and it really turned out to be prostate cancer. My point was directed more towards diagnosing a possible problem with the loader than fixing it. Like I said we can disagree about the safety issue, But I Know of two other 7308 loaders that had low pressure from the factory and needed to be adjusted.(it was the dealers idea to check pressure) You are correct, I am not an expert on loaders but I knew enough to know something was wrong with my loader. I guess if I would have ask you (an expert) what the problem was with my loader you would have ASSUMED It was operator error or some other unrelated issue because as you stated earlier you would not ASSUME it was a problem with the loader pressure. I don't think making sure the pressure settings are correct is hotrodding. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2003-04-12          53026

My TC29D was limited by the length of the lift cylinders. Both my JD 4100 and my current Kubota 2910 easily lift the front end and can dig to a significant depth. I was surprised by the NH, and after taking a look at the design determined that mine was limited by cylinders and not low pressure. I was able to dig to a depth of about a foot when installing drainage in my barn floor but the rest had to be done by hand. On the other hand, the large bucket and lift capacity proved effective for carrying the huge rocks left over from my water line installation. These machines are different in ways that may affect certain uses, that is why most people on this board recommend to a new purchaser that they determine use and then purchase. Cost me several thousand not to do that initially. Had I been a member of this board at the time, I could have flown to Hawaii on the money I would have saved in trading cost. ....

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boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
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2003-04-12          53030

Cutter's post says it all - you need to try them and then buy the set up that fits your situation. When I was shopping for tractors I had a very tough time deciding between the TC-30 and a Kubota L3430 with Glideshift transmission. The Kubota is a larger frame tractor and the only reason I did not buy it is that it is just a little too large for my needs (and my wife didn't like it). Actually, if it wasn't for my wife I probably would have bought the Kubota anyway. The Kubota was only $3000 more in price. By the way, the Kubota's loader digs 4.9" with the bucket flat and the TC-30's loader digs 4.0" with the bucket angled. The TC-30 will work fine for any digging that I have to do (it's not like I dig everyday) and it also lifts higher than the Kubota (better to dump into my truck). Maybe I should buy the Kubota also so that I will have a big orange tractor to park along side my wife's little blue tractor. She probably wouldn't go for that being that I already have a big green tractor. Oh well, I still think it would be nice if we all could have one of each. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-04-13          53059

Doc, I did not miss the analogy. In my original post to this thread, I said that the loader would not lift the front end with the bucket level because the cylinders are fully collapsed and that you have to tilt the bucket down to reach low enough to be below grade and lift the front end. That has been confirmed by several other posters.

Your post mentions boosting the pressure in the hydraulic system before the diagnostic testing is complete. There may well be a reason to increase the pressure if it is low, but it is not proper to assume that it is low and even discuss boosting the pressure until he at least tilts the bucket down to see if it will lift the front end. With the bucket lowered, the main cylinders should lift the front end of the tractor.

I understand that your hydraulic pressure was low and that you talked the mechanic into boosting it above factory specification levels. When I was running a Ford Tractor Dealership when I was in college, I would have fired a mechanic that had knowingly done that. It would have exposed me and my dealership to legal liability. I cannot imagine that the owner of the dealership knows what his mechanic did for you. You can bet that he will know if you or anyone else gets injured with your tractor, because he will be named in the lawsuit to follow. Have you considered your liability if you sell your tractor to someone else? You have knowingly authorized and encouraged a pressure to be boosted beyond factory specification levels. That is OK for you, but are you going to warn every person including every mechanic that ever uses your tractor that it has been modified outside of factory limits?

This is way beyond subject for this thread. As I said originally, the 7308 is a very capable loader. You do not have to hotrod it to make it work well.

You can email me if you want to discuss this further. My identifier is my FCC radio callsign, and you can use it to contact me if you want. I will stand by my comments in front of a jury of my peers any day of the week. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-04-13          53060

AC5ZO, am I missin something here?

Doc said he had his pressure checked by the dealer and it was low, so they adjusted it to what it should have been. Wouldn't that be the right thing to do?

Billy ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-04-13          53063

AC..... Did you miss the line about the test that showed 300 pounds low? ....

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drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2003-04-13          53070

The greatest thing about this country is we can all have differant ideas and opinions with the freedom to express them. In my case the dealer suggested the pressure check he said it was common that the 7308 was low from the factory( his words not mine). I do personally know of 2 others that were low. The service manager suggested the boost in pressure above factory setting, I just convinced the mechanic to boost a little more. I realize the increased saftey issue and would certainly tell anyone who would buy or use the machine. My loader would not lift the front even with bucket curled down. For the last time I never suggested that anyone else boost pressure past spec but they also should never assume the pressure is correct without testing. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-13          53082

Well, I think the idea may be that if a loader won't raise the tractor with the lift circuit, and the bucket is flat, them it'd be good to know that the loader is supposed to have that capability before suspecting low pressure.

I think that two threads got blended together in the middle of this. There was a recent thread where somebody said they did talk a mechanic into adjusting the relief pressure above spec. I think the reference here is about somebody else. I can't recall who or the subject title of the other discussion.

Without trying to make pressure adjustment into rocket science, I'm sort of curious where the specs come from. I'm thinking that specs may not be the same for all tractors a loader may mount on. There's a chance that an appropriate spec for a tractor that's light in the rear may be lower than for the same loader on another tractor. I also don't know if specs should be interpreted as providing protection for the loader only or for the loader plus the tractor or if some sense of safety and ballast also is included. I'm not sure I'd assume that the spec for a loader always is as high as the system relief pressure.

I'd probably assume that a spec for a factory option loader that came from a dealer would cover a whole range of issues and a dealer mechanic should do it right. I'm not sure how I'd interpret a single general spec for an after-market loader that might be mounted on many different tractors and hydraulic components.
....

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boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
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2003-04-14          53124

The specs. in the 7308 Operators Manual are very slightly different for different tractor models(it does reference all models that this loader fits) however all specs are based on 1800 PSI/2600 RPM. In the TC-30 Operators Manual in the spec. section for the Hydraulic Lift System it states that the "System Relief Valve Setting" is 2133 PSI (does not give any plus or minus figures). ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-04-14          53127

Billy and Mark
Drcjv fills in the missing pieces, I think. The Dr. and I have had this discussion before in another area and we disagree on whether it is OK to turn up hydraulic pressure on a tractor to 133% of factory specification. I think that,in general, it is unsafe.

Drcjv indeed did have low pressure and it certainly should have been adjusted to proper factory levels. Getting the mechanic to adjust it to 133% of factory spec places a legal liability on the owner of the dealership, and he may not even know that it happened. If the doctor ever hurt himself with his tractor, then the dealer could be named in a lawsuit for the actions of his employees.

It was not the doctor that originally mentioned not being able to lift the front end of his tractor, it was sweetbrier. Several of us responded that there were mechanical limiters in the loaders that would keep you from lifting the front without tilting the bucket downward and that low pressure was not necessarily the cause.

I really do not mind that drcjv has adjusted the pressure on his tractor beyond specification. It is no skin off of my knee if he wants to do that. I can assure everyone that the hydraulic pressure police are not going to show up on anyone’s doorstep. However, in an open forum, like this, I do not think that it is proper to promote adjusting hydraulic pressures to such high levels. Can it allow you to lift higher loads? You bet! Can you break the equipment by doing so? You bet! Can you lift heavy loads on a light tractor that can cause it to become dangerously unstable and topple over? You bet! Can you improve your chances of being killed by doing this? You bet!

I have a TC45 with 16LA. I have lifted one ton loads with it and it was not easy. I have fluid in the tires, rear blade for ballast, and lift with slings from the bucket pivot rather than extending the load out further than necessary. Without 4WD I could not move this load, because the rear wheels will spin in the desert sand. Since the rear end on my 45 gets so light, can it be prudent to lift similar loads with a lighter tractor, lighter loader, and boosted hydraulic pressure?

Tom has a pretty good idea about what has happened with the mixed thread subjects and so forth. He also asks a pretty complicated question about loader weight capacities. NH can pretty much control the situation when you use their loaders on their tractors. What about when you use an aftermarket loader on a tractor? From an engineering perspective the peak recommended load can be independently limited by several things. Hydraulic pressure delivered by the tractor will generally not be the limiter. Frames should be designed to fail slowly and indicate bending prior to catastrophic failure.

There are two other things to take into account when determining maximum safe load. 1. The strength of the tractor frame/attachment points, and 2. The load that can be transported over normal ground at maximum height. Number 2 is the big unknown, because terrain varies and you have to rely on the experience and skill of the operator to keep the tractor stable. So, if you have a 7308 that is specified for 800#, then it is safe to assume that a reasonable person could carry that load at specified height over average ground. There will always be a load heavy enough and slope steep enough to topple any tractor and loader. The engineers have to make an estimate of what that maximum should be, and limiting the hydraulic pressure with a relief valve is the easiest way to enforce the load limitation. An operator with exceptional skill or operating in ideal conditions can handle loads closer to the stability limit of a tractor and loader. This will be beyond the safe practical limits set by the engineers.

I am not going to give advice about boosting hydraulic pressures to people that I do not know over the Internet. I also would like to warn anyone about accepting such advice from someone that you do not know, over the Internet. Be Safe.


....

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drcjv.
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Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2003-04-14          53132

For the record I am the crazed lunatic who had the pressure turned up on my 7308. Also for the record I never promoted any such action to anybody. I simply related my personal experiance with my loader. I also try not to make assumptions Instead I make decicions based on facts. But if I did assume, I could easily make the leap that AC's 45 has a problem because it easily gets light in the rear or because the tires spin in sand Or that the compact tractor fairy is watching over me when I use my tractor because I have suffered from non of the catastrophic events AC warns of. Since I try to deal with facts here are a few
1.I have used my tractor extensively in all ways including moving several 1 ton loads with absolutely no problem
2.I definately believe that by increasing the pressure I have also increased the risk of a mechanical failure.
3.There is no such thing as the compact tractor fairy.
4.I will never rely soley on any safety feature on any piece of power equipment to keep me or my family safe.
5.Any piece of equipment can fail at any time regardless of any settings. The thing that keeps me safe while using my tractor is ME and my ability to recognize dangerous situations and avoid them. I recognize the increased potential of failure and acccident with the increased pressure but with proper caution ,disaster can be avoided. In my opinion it is irresponsible to promote the idea that your loader is totally safe just becuase all setting are to spec. When I was 7yrs old I was run over and seriously injured by a totaly stock farmall cub the accident was not due any "hotrodding" but becuase my brother was irresponsible. When using my tractor I am always aware of possible danger and now even more so with the pressure turned up. If someone can not do this they should not operate a tractor regardless of any settings. The TC33D with a 7308 is an awesome machine. It is small enough to get into tight spots and now with the pressure turned up It can lift like a bigger tractor. With proper cosideration and caution I will contiue to use it that way. Best of luck to all while tractoring. PS what do the little tractors after the names mean? ....

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cutter
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2003-04-14          53134

Now for the important question Tom. How did you place the JD pics below your signature? ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-04-14          53137

Doc, I think that I agree with you on more issues than those where we disagree. I don't mind if you have a different point of view. I do not think that you are a crazed lunatic. On the contrary, I am sure that you are extraordinarily careful with your equipment. It is evident that you know how powerful and potentially dangerous power equipment is and take the appropriate precautions.

The TC33 would have been my tractor of choice, but I decided to go to the next frame size because of the loader capacity issue. I tried out the TC33 and liked it very much. When I finally bought the next frame size tractor I considered the power reduction due to my altitude in the southern end of the Rocky Mountains (5300 AMSL) and realized that I would only get about 38 HP out of the TC45. I thought that was a good solution to my needs.

I understand my tire slippage issue. The load that causes the problems is a 70 ft telescoping heavy pipe radio tower. When I get a big load on the loader, not only does it lighten the rear end, but it really digs the front wheels into the sand. I could do better by putting some suitcase weights on the rear blade or mounting the 758c backhoe attachment. I am certainly glad that I bought a compact tractor and not a skid steer loader for this soil.

Perhaps the little tractors are rank indicators. Do they come in blue?



....

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glenn1720nh
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1 Wellsville,Ohio
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2003-04-16          53260

Isn't the TC-30 a new name for the older New Holland 1720? ....

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