Go BottomTires seem squishy
 | Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan 
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2002-06-18 39661
My new TC30 has turf tires. The front tires are 25-8.50-14 These tires are 4PR (ply?). The max inflation stamped on the sidewall is 22 psi and this is also the max inflation listed in the owners manual. When filled to 22 psi the front tires seem to flatten down to about half the sidewall width with even a light load in the loader. They also leave lots of rubber (tire marks) on the cement driveway (in 2WD mode). When turning, the front tires flex so much I'm afraid they're going to roll off the rim. Any thoughts?
Jerry
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| pbenven
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Southwestern Quebec, Canada
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2002-06-18 39663
I know I sometimes overlook the obvious...Have you checked them with a different pressure gage? ....
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| JJT
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 93 Upstate NY, USA
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2002-06-18 39667
4PR is 4 ply rated.
Turf tires are also known as balloon tires. What you are seeing is normal. If you are going to be doing some serious FEL work I'd run them up to 25#'s and be careful to not take hard turns, these tires can be rolled off the rims. ....
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| edmiller
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2 ohio
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2002-06-18 39670
With a loader on your tractor, you should be using 6 ply tires. ....
Link: Miller Tire
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 | treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2002-06-18 39676
I thought the same thing when I bought my TC33D this spring. I checked the tire pressure ( with a good gauge ) and set it at 22lbs. I did alot of loader work (25hrs) filling the bucket full and I never had problems. Do you have any weight on the 3pt to counter the bucket? It helps alot. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-06-19 39679
Ok, I'll check these tires with a different gauge just to make sure.
I agree that a 6ply tire would be preferable, but 4PR is what NH puts on the machine. But, I may be installing new tires sooner than I thought as my neighbor has about 300 hours on his New Holland tractor with turfs and his front tires are pretty worn. He uses the tractor to cut grass and plow snow off his gravel driveway. I think these tires must be very soft to wear so quickly.
No, I don't have weight on the 3pt or my tires filled yet. I better get around to doing the tire fill that I have been planning.
Jerry
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-06-19 39683
I've also got 4-ply tires on my 1710 and a not very big loader bucket. I recently noticed that running 16 lbs. in the tires made it difficult to engage and disengage the 4wd, which is a sign of excessive front axle lead and is hard on the front drive train.
Tires may have a max pressure rating, but they also have load charts. The max load for my front tires is at 12lbs. I've run 14 lbs. without noticing the axle windup problem and will reduce the pressure and just let the tires flatten down under load. Even when I'm doing heavy loader work, I probably travel further with little or nothing in the bucket than with a heavy load. I think it’s better to stick close to pressures that are in a load chart for the tire. Because some axle lead is fairly standard in 4wd tractors, it's a good idea to avoid using 4wd on pavement or high traction surfaces.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-06-20 39706
There are some questions that I could ask here. Is it the factory loader? Is it the standard size bucket if it is the factory loader? Often for price or for the thoughts that the loader will lift more a generic loader is installed on the front of tractors. They often weigh more than the manufacturers and have bigger buckets that if not used properly overload the front end and tires causing premature failure. To use more air in the tire than recommended is not normally needed but sometimes it is for different jobs. I would over inflate the tires to keep them from rolling under or to help reduce scuffing but never by more than 10%. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-06-20 39711
Art, its a 7308 loader with the 60in HD bucket. The tires are not causing any performance problems at this time, but they make me a bit nervous when I see how much they bulge and flex. They also leave behind a distinct trail of rubber while turning on concrete. This happens with the loader bucket empty and in 2wd.
Jerry ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-06-20 39714
You have all NH equipment so it is not a matter of front overload as you have it even when the bucket is empty. I don't have concrete to try it on but there are only a couple of things to check. Try the toe-in as that could give you the problem. The other would be the air pressure which you are checking. Last would be the least possible and that would be a bad forging of an axle housing that will give you to much camber but that is rare not to get caught while building the tractor. To load the rear with weight will not take the load off the front. It will change the balance of the tractor as it will just be heavier in the rear and would not change your problem. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-06-20 39719
I'd make a distinction between rear tire weight (loaded or weights) and 3ph weight. Far as I know tire ballast of any kind doesn't change the steering, but 3ph weight does--at least when the weight is off the ground.
I know that if I have a heavy load on my 3ph forklift there may be very little steering. Too heavy or too light steering serve as a reminder to me that maybe I need to change the ballasting. I don't know if weight on the 3ph would affect tire scuffing though.
If the scuffing is only in hard turns, then it's probably normal. It takes quite a bit of force to bring weight on front axles around and some scuffing is almost unavoidable. Art's suggestion about checking the alignment is good. Excessive toe-in sure will cause scuffing. If I were doing it, I'd probably not worry much about the tire flex and just wear out the tires before looking for new ones. It's not uncommon for people to carry loads almost on the rims, although there are safety issues. I’m trying to remember if somebody said that they mismatched tire types. I think it was turfs rear and R4’s front. Something like that would be an alternative provide the front and rear rolling circumferences remain within spec.
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-06-21 39732
Art, have you ever seen a tire bust a gut from too much pressure and load? I know it can happen with automobiles, but there is a high-speed heat component there we do not have in tractors. It would seem far safer to me to over inflate to front tires on tractors, especially considering the sharp turning radius, rather than run the risk of rolling it off its bead. So the question is, I guess, how much static pressure does it take to explode a modern tire? ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-06-21 39733
Mark, that's a good question, normally I'm being asked to warrantee the tire so Of coarse they have not been overloaded nor abused. The answer is yes, but the amount of abuse is substantial. I don't have the ability to answer that question well without knowing the makes and style of tires and it still would only be geusstimates There are many factors that enter into this as pluses and minuses. As I said to overinflate by 10% would be a good place to start but I donot recommend it on older weather checked tires. Someone in another response talked of putting industrial tires on the front to carry the load better and leave the turf tires on the rear. A little of my life experience here, I sold a tractor with four wheel drive 150 hp to a fellow and he wanted what we call rice and cane tires or R-3 design. I could not find the fronts and they would not be available for 90 days. So I started looking and found out if I went to the next size larger they had the same circumference as the R-3's I was looking for, so we mounted them up to get him going. The grease was running out the u-joints within 30 minutes of operation and I bought a driveshaft as he took it out not realizing the problem. When in tilled soil the rears dropped in to the tire and so did the fronts but the fronts were turning to fast as the treads were not as high as the rears causing an imbalance. This is a grey area and needs to be looked at thoughly before spending the money to do so. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-06-22 39753
Art's comment is an extreme case of what I observed when I pumped up the front tire pressure and had trouble engaging and disengaging the 4wd when there was no load in the bucket. I have to remind myself that the wrong axle lead is hard on front drive trains, and no matter what loads I carry, I go as far with no loads as with heavy loads.
I imagine the 'stiffer' R4's keep a higher profile under load than other types. However, the full answer may come out in Mark's subject about tire circumference.
If anybody noticed some confusion before I corrected it, I got parts of two messages in the same post. The edit feature is very handy.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-06-22 39754
Tom it is indeed something I hope at this point not to have happen again. The remark of turfs with the industrial tires is what that was refering to as it is possible to happen there with the two types of tread. There is another side to it, the r-4 tires have a very high load rating actually high enough to nearly support the entire tractor weight on one. That is why some have mentioned the stiff ride on the R-4 tires. This could also pose a major problem because of the sidewall flex of the turfs vs the R-4 as there would be little flex on the R-4's and a larger amount on the turfs. Most manufacturers have a lead built in about 2-4% and this might be a more consistant number with the R-4's until they drop into soft soil. ....
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| Spring Valley
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Terre Haute, Indiana
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2002-06-22 39756
You could also fill the front tires with foam. If you have an industrial tire center (one who deals with off road construction equipment tires) they would be able to do that for you. If you did that, the tire would not roll off the rim, it would not 'squish' under load to half of its height and you could run it until cords were showing. Problem is you have to buy a new rim when you buy new tires. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-06-23 39772
The impression I'm getting here and in Mark's thread is that the length of a tire's footprint is the main thing that affects axle lead given different loads. One way of thinking about it is that both a flatter tire and one that's in soft ground put more rubber on the ground. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-07-13 40322
Had the rear tires filled with RimGuard and the front tires don't seem to be 'squishy' anymore. I guess there was just too much weight on the front.
Jerry ....
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| MrDoom
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-07-16 40425
I don't understand! Filling the rear tires would have no effect on the front tires. The only way to remove weight from the front tires is to attach weight behind the rear axle. Adding weight to the three point hitch actually removes weight from the front tires by transferring more of the load to the rear. The best way to counterweight with a front end loader is to attach heavy weight to the three point. I use my tiller as a counterweight. Takes a lot of weight off the front. If you think of your tractor as a teeter-totter with the rear axle being the pivot point, this transfer of weight will make sense to you. ....
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| pbenven
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Southwestern Quebec, Canada
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2002-07-16 40426
Why is the rear axle the pivot-point? If the bucket is full and is out over the front of the tractor somewhere, then I would think that the pivot point would more likely be somewhere under the hood. Don't tell me you've never felt a little light in the seat when you hit a bump with a full load in the bucket. Filling the tires wouldn't have as much effect as adding weight to the 3ph, but I think it is still an improvement. ....
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| MrDoom
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-07-16 40427
I am not talking about the center of the weight with a full bucket. That would probably be pretty close to the front wheels. What I am saying is that the only way to remove weight from the front wheels by adding weight to the tractor is if that weight is added behind the rear axle.
You could add a thousand pounds to the rear wheels and it would have no effect on the front simply because half of the weight is in front of the axel and half behind. No effect on the front end. However, if you add weight behind the rear axel, it will transfer weight from the front tires to the rear. Adding fluid to rear tires or rear wheel weights will increase traction, but it will not have any effect on the weight on the front tires.
You can prove this if you have access to scales. Pull your front wheels on the scale and leave your back wheels off. If you have an attacment on the three point hitch, weight the front of the tractor with the attachment on the ground. Then weight the front of the tractor with the attachment raised. You will find out the front of the tractor weights less with the attachment raised.
You can then add whatever kind of weight you want to the rear wheels, fluid or iron weights and you will find the the weight of the front does not change at all.
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-07-17 40457
MrDoom, I have been thinking about your comments. They do seem to make sense, but the fact remains that the front tires seem to not flatten out so much anymore. ???
Here is something I have been thinking about. Consider a tractor with un-loaded rear tires and a loader. Fill the loader bucket with a heavy load. Now raise the bucket untill the rear tires leave the ground. In this scenario, all of the weight of the tractor is now on the front tires. Slowly add fluid weight to the rear tires and some of the weight will begin to transfer to the rear. When the rear tires touch the ground, you will then begin to take weight off the front end. According to your description, you will reach a point where no additional weight (fluid) will produce any more changes in weight distribution on the front.
Oh well, sounds crazy, just testing my thinking.
Jerry
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2002-07-17 40460
I have had tractors with wheel weights and some that I've used 3ph wheights. Yes, wheel weights will keep the rear end from lifting off the ground when using the loader. Wheel weights will not lessen the load on the front tires. Everyone that uses large 3ph items like a HD bush hog knows what will lessen the weight on the front wheels. Anything mounted in front of the rear axle will increase the weight on the front while anything behind the rear axle will lessen it. If you put wheel weights on and you lift something heavy with the loader and lift the rear tires off the ground, now you have actually increased the weight on your front axle. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-07-18 40479
A couple of things here to make me think. I guess a summary might be that adding wheel weight won't reduce front axle loading when all four wheels are on the ground and would increase it if the rear wheels lifted. However, lifting the rear wheels is less likely with added wheel weight.
That seems right to me. Still, I trust observation and it would be good to have an explanation why the tires seem less squishy--I assume that the bucket loads were nearly the same weight. A couple of thoughts come to mind. If the tires seemed less squishy it might have been on a very hot day. Tire pressures increase on hot days. The bucket positions may have been different.
I'd have to think through some geometry, but I think that a bucket raised to the same level as the lift arm pivot points produces the greatest leverage on the frame and may also produce the greatest front axle loading. Loaders and 3ph's lift in arcs, and loads are at the greatest distance from the tractor when the lift arms are parallel to the ground. Of course loading on to the tractor depends on the loader frame geometry, and most frames are designed spread the load. I don't think the entire bucket weight is placed on the front axle, but I do think that bucket height would affect the front axle load. Whether the effect would be enough to account for the observation that the tires were less squishy, I don't know but it's good to think about.
I suppose it’s worth noting that because the way loaders lift, you can’t pick up a load of building materials that are against a wall and lift them to somebody on the roof. You have to back up first or risk breaking the wall.
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| pbenven
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Southwestern Quebec, Canada
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2002-07-18 40482
I'm trying to visualize this - bear with me.
Full load in bucket.
Bucket raised above the hood of the tractor.
Without the tires filled, I'm imagining a line coming down from the bucket and passing right through the front wheels. Sneeze on the back of the tractor and you're going over.
With the tires filled, that same line comes down from the bucket but ends up a little further back - changing the "pivot-point" from the front wheels to somewhere maybe only slightly behind them. The weight is therefore more evenly distibuted amongst the four wheels of the tractor. Not nearly as much weight is shifted back as would be if you added weight to the 3ph - but it is still shifted back more than if you had no weight at all on that side of the pivot.
Sound right?
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-07-19 40503
I'm trying to visualize this too, and I’m having enough trouble that I think I'm going to have to actually look at the loader. I forget how the front part of the loader frame mounts on the tractor. There is a loader frame member that runs under my tractor mid-way back more or less under the pivots, and I completely forget where the lift cylinders attach.
What I am thinking is that a load probably is distributed between the cylinder mounts and the pivots. I'm guessing that distribution of the load changes with the bucket. I think the pivots are behind the cylinder mounts, and the pivots may receive more of the load as the bucket is lifted above horizontal. Even if that’s true, I don't know if it translates into a change in the distribution of loads between the front and rear tractor axles. Dang! Too many words. Think I'll go back to my visualizing.
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