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 | Ray H
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2001-04-14 26710
I'm going to make my decision on purchasing a compact tractor in the 40 hp range from one of the big three. I'm really undecided about which transmission to purchase. I'm currently considering the hydro trans. Just looking for comments from others on their choice of transmission and why.
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| Alan L. Lewis
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2001-04-14 26716
Go with the HST. Reasons:
1. Safety - you fall off the tractor it stops.
2. Infinite control over speed. You go REAL slow just by bearly pressing the pedal.
3. Easy going from forward to reverse, such as when you use the loader.
4. Look ma - no hands!
5. Your wife can drive it.
6. It'll have better resale, so you can recover part of the extra cost.
Alan Lewis ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2001-04-15 26720
HST's are more expensive to buy and more expensive to maintain than gears, and there’s more engine power loss to the wheels. HST's have an advantage when doing a lot of stop and go work such as loader and fork work, but there's not a lot of advantage over gears for most field work. The extra power loss of a HST isn't too great a disadvantage. With the tires and ballast many people run, their tractors are overpowered anyway--the traction tends to break before the engine power quits. Somebody commented once that, other than cost, the only advantage of gears was for people who have to do calibrated ground speed planting operations. Despite all this, I have a 12x4 gear TX. It was the right used compact at the right time for me, and I sort of like my gears. On the other hand, I do find myself sometimes at the end of a long day perched on the side of a mound 'ho-humming' while waiting for the bucket to dump. I have to have one foot on the clutch and one foot on the brakes to hold the tractor on the slope. If I want to add RPM to speed up the bucket, I'd need a third foot for the throttle. Actually, it's better to shift to neutral to save wear on the clutch throw-out bearing, but that's a couple more shifts per operation. Of course, I could just set a higher RPM with the hand throttle, but then the gears may give me a bit too much speed in one range and too little in a lower one. HST’s don’t have these difficulties. Sometimes it's enough to make even me wish for a HST. My gear TX does provide four reverses, and three forward and one reverse syncro-meshed gears per range. I might speak less fondly of my gear TX if it had less capability. ....
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| Mark
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 188 Virginia
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2001-04-15 26744
Have a new TC33D new like 6hrs. Today I had to move an old truck out of the way to make room for mowing. I thought it would be a good test on the limitations of the hydro trans. The truck is an old 1 ton flat bed (heavy) and it needed to be pushed up a small grade in soft (not wet) ground, (something my old gear tractor could do if it could get traction) so I pull up to it in low and eased the pedal some until I think it should be moving, But it's not, so push down some more, still not moving, wheels not spinning, trans sounds like it should be moving, I push the pedal all the way down now, (figure if it's gonna break I want to know now), but still doesn't move, wheels won't spin. I back off the pedal. What did I just buy!!!!! Ok calm down I say, The mechanic at the dealer told me they have seen allot of things but have never had a boomer come in that needed work on a hydro trans. Well we'll see about that. here goes I throttle up and smash the pedal to the floor, WOW the tractor hops up, all 4 wheels start digging and away we go. It spun digging and churning all the way up the hill until I lost all traction. To sum it up Yes you loose some power in the hydro over the gears but, the power that makes it to the wheels is plenty to spin them over. What else do you need?
My problem is with the lack of power in the FEL 7308 seems the relieve valve is blowing off way to soon. Any one else having disappointing results with there 7308? is there an adjustment you can make to the valve? ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-04-16 26747
It sounds like you are having fun with the new TC. Congratulations on the new toy!
The relief valve for any loader is easily adjusted. I don't know the scheme on yours, but it is usually just a matter of changing the shims under a coil spring. A ten minute job.
I was curious about mine, so I had a "T" connector put into the high pressure side of the hydraulic line where it enters the loader valve. I screwed a small oil-damped pressure gauge into the open side of the "T" . My gauge came from a used tool store, but I've noticed that the local welding supply shop sells a similar valve. With this rig you can tell at a glance what kind of pressure that the pump is developing when you pick up a load. And with a little practice you can make a pretty good estimate of weight. The entire gauge installation cost less than twenty bucks. Of course it will also let you know at what pressure the relief valve is beginning to bypass and you can compare that number with the one in the manual. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-04-16 26755
While I prefer not to contradict people unless necessary, I feel in this case I MUST. Allan, I feel your comments are GROSSLY misleading. In the order you set them out; 1) I have VERY rarely ever seen anyone do any amount of work on a gear tractor where they had the hand throttle set and would not have had the 'cruise control' set on the hydro, if you use falling off as a test of safety then you're obviously NOT wearing your seat-belt, thats inexcusable these days, 2) as was mentioned peviously, where ground speed is critical, it is nearly impossible to do with hydro because of the variables involved, like heat, load, etc., 3) you CANNOT use the shifter as brakes with ANY equipment, you must stop before reversing direction, with a shuttle there is no real disadvantage, unless you are using it as a commercial loader (not very likely), 4)NO HANDS? I hope you mean to shift, in which case you still have to shift ranges even with a hydro., and with a GST-type trans. it is only a minor movement of your left hand to pick a gear, no clutching involved, 5) If someone is not able to operate a clutch in order to pull away or stop then they probably are not proficient to operate the equipment, regardless of gender or age, 6)almost every used hydro. unit I have seen were the same price of a gear unit since people are very hesitant to buy them because of the potential for astronomic repair costs. Now, having vented enough, Ray, go to several dealers who sell both types and talk to them, get the differences first hand and explain what you want the machine for, they will advise you accordingly. Best of luck. ....
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia 
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2001-04-16 26759
Most of us have had this same question. I talked to dealers, farmers, landscapers and loggers that used their tractors at home and in business. Around here, the gears were the majority choice. I heard "Hydros are nice, but..." many times. Fear of high repair costs, (even though 2 of 3 dealers I talked to said they'd never had to repair a hydro unit) and higher initial cost for the hydro were the reasons that I went with gears. For my purposes (mostly hauling rocks and mowing) I couldn't justify the expenditure. And I do admit a prejudice for gears. Bill in WV ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2001-04-16 26763
Dang, Murf, I've always figured you have a lot more experience and knowledge than I where these tractors are concerned, but in this particular case, I have no doubt that Alan was a lot closer to being right than you are. Maybe it's a difference in the part of the world we live in, or what the tractors are used for, but if you were talking to anyone in my area, Alan was right. Admittedly, the really big farms (of which there are many all around me) using big tractors to plow, plant, and fertilize still use a lot of geared tractors, although the John Deere powershift is very popular. But for smaller tractors, the HST wins hands down in every category; convenience, safety, maneuverability, and resale. ....
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| kay
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2001-04-16 26765
No one could ever convince me that my HST isn't the best thing sinced sliced bread. Even when digging unloosened dirt with the bucket, just put it in low gear, 4whd, set the "cruise" at slow speed, and work the bucket into the dirt until it is full. Can even use the differential lock as you go. Just as good as being in a gear. True, I am not doing field work or needing to have a particular ground speed, but for everything else - it is the best of the two worlds. BTW this is a JD4300. I doubt it can be any less on other brands. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-04-16 26766
Until a year ago I had one Hydro and 6 GST Kubota's in the fleet, doing the EXACT same tasks, the Hydro used 20% more fuel, and ran on average, 20 degrees F. hotter in the rad, and 40 hotter in the transmission. While I agree that for some things it is more CONVENIENT, for the average user it is a very expensive luxury. Bird, I know you are knowledgeable in these things, but after 4000 hrs. and two years of real world, head-to-head comparison, I'll stick to GST's, thanks. Before you ask, yes you read right, my machines AVERAGE 2000 hrs. per year, EACH. The other problem I have with Hydro.'s is merely personal opinion, but after 20 years of this I have noticed one thing, convenience leads to complacency. My snow-plow trucks are a perfect example, the automatics would fail on average once per year, and the whole truck was dead after 4 seasons, after installing monitors it was discovered that even my best drivers tried to rush between forward & reverse, and were trying to plow too fast. After changing to standard's, the grinding would remind them to completely stop before reversing, and they discovered that plowing slowly gave them better control (less damage), bounced the driver around less, and used a LOT less fuel. The trucks now last 6 years, and are worth more in the end. Hmmmmmm, 50% more life and less repairs, PLUS better fuel mileage....... Hydro, Gear, Ford , Chev. to each their own and to all a good night, as always. Best of luck friends. ....
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| Stephen R. Cebenko
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2001-04-16 26768
Murf, It's good to hear of real world experiences with hydro vs gear. I am partial to gear, but everyone says to but hydro. Price is the big reason and second, I'm not doing alot of loader work. The dealer does mention that the hydro could reduce operating costs due to the fact that you're not replacing clutches.
I'm not looking at Kubota's because in my area they are over priced. (N.E. Pensylvania) and I want to find a local dealer. So it's between the JD 4300 or the NH TC33 or TC35. I'm leaning toward the latter. Right now I own a JD1050 MFWD w/ loader and backhoe that I will be trading or selling. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-04-16 26770
I wonder at the dealers comment about clutches. The I have only ever replaced 2 of them, one was at 26 hrs., an obviously defective unit and under warranty, and one on an old Ford 3600 (circa 1960's and 7500+ hrs.) 'chore' machine at the farm, and even then it was only the pto side of the clutch, and because some knuckle-head put an 8' double auger snow blower behind it. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-04-16 26777
Murf, I've never had any doubt that you know more about these tractors than I do, and possibly more about cars and trucks. Of course, I've had a bit more experience in those than I have had with tractors, and was a fleet manager for a few years. As I mentioned, it depends on the use, the location, (and the operators). We had the exact opposite experience with trucks from what you had. Everyone thought big trucks, like wreckers, garbage trucks, etc. were only supposed to have manual transmissions, but when we finally changed to automatics, maintenance costs and down time dropped considerably. But of course, there's a place and use for both manual and automatic trucks, HST, GST, and geared tractors, etc. or I guess they wouldn't be building all the different types. ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-04-16 26783
Stephen, did I read you right? You are selling a a JD 1050 MFWD with loader and hoe in order to get a 4300 or a TC33/35? This isn't going to make much sense to some of us. Whatever for? ....
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| Mark
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 188 Virginia
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2001-04-16 26796
Thank You Roger.
It's a great Idea for a gauge on the pump. I have been wondering what modifications I could do to my new TC and that's a great place to start. Has anyone else done any customizing or modifications to their stock tractors that you would be proud to share with the rest of us? Like custom drink holders, bucket thumbs, grapple hooks, hood shields or whatever? (I have plans for all of these)
My Girlfriend says I remind her of Tim the Tool Man.
My Moto is Stock is just the place to start. ....
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| Stephen R. Cebenko
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2001-04-17 26804
Roger Loving, I bought the 1050 for a pretty good price and don't really need the back hoe any more. Sure it would be fun and handy to keep for those times I could use it. I was thinking of just selling the hoe but it is a frame mounted unit and works well with the tractor.
I don't have much personal experience with compact tractors in general, but I know the JD 1050 is a good tractor. Another reason I would be selling it is that it doesn't fit in my garage and if I get what I want for it I could almost go even up on something new with a warranty.
So I take it you don't care for the newer models? Your comments and opinions are more than welcome and please be brutally honest. Maybe this should be it's own thread. ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-04-17 26809
Well, it sounds to me like you would rather have a different tractor. I don't have a problem with that, but it would seem that it would make your decision for you in terms of gears versus hydro. You are not going to find a better pure gear tractor than the 1050, so you might as well try hydro. The people who do seem to like them.
As for new tractors versus old, you are misreading me. In general I prefer the newer ones. Of course anything new is a gambling game. And just like in automobiles, there will always be certain models among the vintage that are unusually good or clever. The 1050 is probably such a tractor for mechanical reasons. As for the operator's position, I always thought they were too high and too cramped - things that become more important with age. Plus they were gear type only.
As for transmissions, the main advantage that I see in hydro is the ease of which it goes between speeds and also forward and reverse. For very delicate positioning or heavy work I think that clutches are better. The best of both worlds for me would be a hydro with a manually clutch. There is such an animal. It is called a "shuttle shift" or "power shift". Use of the manual clutch is optional on these, but it is there if needed. Shifting is done on the dashboard without lifting a foot. These hybrid shifters are usually more expensive than hydro or gears and also said to be higher maintenance. Those who have them obviously think they are worthwhile. Power shift is common on the tractors larger than the compacts. I think its price limits its use on compact tractors, though last I checked both JD and Massey listed it as an option. ....
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| JeffM
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2001-04-17 26810
Murf and Bird, I've got to check in on this one. I think you're both right. I have a HST tractor, but that is primarily so that my wife can easily use it in a safe fashion to mow. I also like the HST for loader work, but would probably be just as happy with a glideshift or powershift reverser. Almost all the other tractors I've ever used were gear shift and in many situations I prefer the gear shift. As far as clutches going and hydro/automatic tranny repairs I've always believed that failures were due to either poor design, poor maintenance, or poor operator habits. Premature clutch failures are typically caused by the operator. But many automatic tranny problems are due to the operator also (repeatedly parking on hills without parking brake, Murf's experience with plow operators shifting before stopping, etc.). I do think that the HST is safer, especially for the less experienced tractor operator. And the only way for an inexperienced operator to get experienced is to operate. A similar example is that I have a big, heavy walk-behind snowblower that I think is just great because although the controls were tough to master, they are heavy-duty and allow me to use the machine to its full impressive capabilities. However, I found myself on crutches 3 winters ago and there was no way my petite wife or my 15-year old son could safely operate this machine. I tried teaching them, but they didn't have the experience to effectively operate the controls nor the body weight and strength required to safely compensate for lack of operator skills on our hilly driveway. My point is that the operator's skills and behaviors are overriding factors in the effectiveness of different technologies, both in personal and commercial use scenarios. (Hey TomG, that last sentence sounds like something you could have written in your past life!) ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-04-17 26816
Roger, you say the best would be a hydro with a manual clutch. You actually can work the Kubota HST that way, although I haven't seen a need to for my use. You can set the throttle by hand, work the hydro pedal with your right foot and the clutch with the left foot, since the clutch disengages the hydro as well as the PTO. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-04-17 26818
Roger, unless pricing is very different down there the Kubota Glide Shift Trans. (GST) 8x8 speed is barely more ($250) than a straight Gear Trans. 8x8 speed, the Hydro. is ridiculously more again. And yes the GST allows clutchless shifting if required. ....
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| david godollei
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2001-04-17 26821
I have an IH 2500b, which I'm told, is similar to the 574 or 584 ag tractor. 2 speed hydro, 50+- HP 4cyl gas. Loader and 3pt hitch with draft control. Forward/reverse pedals on left. L & R brake pedals, differential lock and foot throttle on right. I've done a lot of loader work with it and will never go back to gears on a loader. Set main throttle, step on the pedals and go. Let off the pedals and it stops right now. I never use the brakes except for sharp turns or precision positioning. If it starts to bog down, just step on the foot throttle for more power. Bad thing: no cruise control. Have to keep my foot down all day when brush hogging or plowing. I understand that this isn't a problem on these new tractors. Old guys tell me hydro for loaders and yard work, gears for field work. Hope this helps. ....
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| Ray H
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2001-04-17 26823
I never thought this would be such a popular topic and I thank everyone for their input but it seem to me that I need to explain what I intend to do with this tractor and get further input. I do not intend to plow fields or do any haying. This tractor will be used to finish (I should say start) my landscaping. I have 20 acres of wooded land, a 2 acre pond, and about 2 acres of field. I plan to use the unit to do loader work, build rock walls (rocks grow well here), maintain my stone driveway, dig drainage ditches, clear cross country ski paths through the woods, and mow the fields. Once the landscaping work is done the tractor will be used to maintain the property, haul and split wood and in the winter to plow snow. With that in mind would a Hydro trans service my needs. I understand they are a more complicated transmission and therfore may require additional service but I have related their use to the transmisions I use in our bulldozers. I know they are different than a compact tractor but similiar in theory. We never seem to have maintainance problems with the dozer transmisions. Should I consider that the same with a compact tractor with the same regimented PM schedules and operator care? ....
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| Don M
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120 myLocation
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2001-04-17 26831
I'd like some more explanation of the glide- or power-shift trans operation.
Using a loader, if I drive into a pile of material, stop to curl the bucket, lift the bucket, then back away, how is this done with these transmissions? I assume you have to push in the clutch to stop, right? If so, I'm having a hard time imagining a clutchless change of direction. I don't think I'd ever not have a moment of stoppage while I get the bucket repositioned. Obviously I'm missing something and while I like hydro for the obvious reasons, I'm also cheap and willing to buck the trends. Please fill in the gaps for me.
Thanks,
Don M ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-04-17 26832
Ray, naturally, it doesn't make any difference to me which transmission you get. I've never used a GST, but I've spent a right fair amount of time on geared tractors, and I sure hope I never have to do the kind of work you're talking about again without an HST. I like mine and wouldn't change back at all, unless they were truly unreliable and/or excessively expensive to maintain. Now I don't have anywhere near the number of hours experience that Murf does, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that my HST is likely to cost me anymore than a geared tractor, with the exception of initial purchase price and perhaps fuel economy, but for my use that little difference is well worth it. ....
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| JonB
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2001-04-17 26837
Ray, on this one I think JeffM hit the nail on the head. It all depends on the operator (that's you), your maintenance and intended use. Pick the machine that fits your needs, the way you treat equipment and what you'll be most comfortable with. I chose a hydro, knowing I'd maintain and never abuse it. I also knew it would be easier for me, giving me one less thing to think about so I could concentrate on steering and using the implements. And I couldn't be happier. No problems, easy to use, and as others have stated, I lose traction before I lose power. But for you, maybe gears are better. Best of luck. JonB ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-04-18 26838
Don, with my power shift I do usually use the clutch when I want to get the perfect load in the bucket. Also, if I want to raise and lower the bucket a few times I will do this in neutral instead of putting so much work on the throw-out bearing. Power shift doesn't require the clutch when going into and out of neutral.
Here is how it often goes....I approach the pile in a high gear and begin downshifting by moving my left fingers to push a lever on the dash. no clutch required. I end up in low gear and advance into the load. When the bucket is full, I push the dash lever into neutral and rev the engine to raise the arms, settle the load, get it all well back into the bucket. Then I move the lever to reverse, back through a half circle, then into forward and begin to go on up through the gears. All without lifting my clutch foot; just my left fingertips. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-04-18 26839
JeffM: My past tractor life was as a farm-family city kid. My uncles sometimes let me do simple things with their mostly '50's Internationals when we visited. My Grandfather was a little more particular about his Deeres. My Ford 1710 is the first tractor I've owned and operated, and I'm still have more book-learning than experience. My present life is that I have managed to return to the life my family spend half theirs escaping--I do like indoor plumbing and electricity tho. The comment about my TX is in the present life. I do quite a bit work in reverse between the snow blower and box scraper. With the blower, I have to run at PTO RPM, and the TX is the only way to adjust ground speed. I think I'd find fewer than four reverse gears limiting. The narrower spacing between ranges gives better speed control. I also do a lot of loader work. The syncromesh between foreword and gears and reverse makes operations easier. Regarding not using the clutch: I don't know about PowerShift, but I recall a thread among transport drivers. One opinion was that it's better to shift without using the clutch. Takes a little skill, but that can be done easily enough (up or down) on most syncromesh TX's. It's a little more difficult on slide gear TX's. I almost never used the clutch on a 60's Air Force Ford 1/2 ton I drove. Soldiers do strange things to occupy their time. ....
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| JeffM
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2001-04-18 26845
TomG, ah-h-h, to remember the joys of clutchless shifting. My grandfather maintained that if you weren't capable of shifting a synchro tranny without a clutch, then you didn't know enough about the machine to deserve to use a clutch. (???) The small Honda and Toyota cars I owned during the 1980's really only required the clutch to start and stop, but I still had to pay attention when I was playing like that. After 155K miles on the Honda and 205K on a Toyota, I never had to replace a clutch. ....
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| david godollei
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2001-04-18 26849
Ray, go to dealers and drive both types. Find a dirt or mulch pile and test them out. You sound like someone that maintains their equipment. You shouldn't have any troubles with either type. For the work that you've itemized, with hydro, you'll never, ever have to shift. You won't even use cruise unless field mowing. I, too have 20 acres of rolling wooded land with about a mile and a half of X country ski trails. Wish I had the pond. ....
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