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HST and cold weather

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Chris
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2000-01-21          12139

I was running my TC25D recently in below zero temps and the HST was squealing a little bit when pressing the pedal all the way down. I let tractor warm-up for quite a while before operating, is there a temperature rating on the HST fluid?

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PaulB
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2000-01-21          12141

Chis - I recently had what I thought might be a cold weather problem (turned out one of my brakes was rubbing) and asked my dealer about using something other than super UDT in my Kubota. He called a factory rep, and found out that Super UDT is rated at 5 weight, so it is about as thin in the cold as you can get. I don't know what NH uses, but maybe your dealer can find out what viscosity it is rated at.
PaulB ....

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Bob
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2000-01-22          12150

My TC33D also squeals when cold. Most comments on the board here concur that this is normal. The other night my machine fired up @20 degrees F with no block heater, I idled @1500rpm for a minute,suealing pretty good,and started to plow snow @2000rpm,after I saw some heat get into the motor I advanced to 2800. the squeal disappeared after @15min(it slowly quiets down). The looader was a little sluggish the first 10 minutes(rpm dependent I think)besides the cold hydraulics. My 1st winter with my33.Plowed great in 4wd,turf tires unloaded,no chains,650# concrete on 3pt. I dont think I'll have to do any changes for my needs.any comments on keeping the block heater plugged in for weeks at a time?They do that for the compact used for snow removal at my hospital. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-01-22          12153

Yep, hydraulics of all kinds squeal in cold weather. I've wondered about this myself and don't know exactly why. Don't think I've ever heard of any failure directly because of this. I do give mine a long warm-up on general principles.
As far as leaving it plugged in: The block heater is no different than the heating element in an electric hot water heater (except it is lower wattage). But hot water heaters also have a thermostat that turns the heating element off when the water begins to get too hot. As far as I know, none of the block heaters have this feature - an oversight by the designers for sure. It may be that they are relying on the fact that the block heater is low wattage and you do get some thermosiphon cooling through the radiator. I'd be cautious leaving it plugged in, or better yet, add some sort of thermostat to the system. Then you could leave it plugged in indefinitely. ....

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JJT
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2000-01-22          12155

I also notice a difference on the hydraulic recycle time. Although no squeel and my L3710 Kubota started up this am with -5 on the thermo, (no block heater, stored in an unheated garage). Let things warm up for 10 minutes and cleared the drive, (1000'), in less than an hour. I do use a diesel conditioner. Have a friend that does not and he was jelled up and out of commission this am. The Kub dealer said no need for a block heater, so far it seems he was right. ....

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Rick B.
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2000-01-22          12160

Here's how to warm up your Hydro trans oil while warming up the engine. Start the tractor. Set the throttle up off idle (1000-1500RPM). Lock brakes, shift the transmission's range selector to NEUTRAL. Block the hydro pedal fully in forward, or depress the pedal & set the cruise control. This circulates the hyd oil better and faster than leaving the hydro in neutral. Note this method may not work on tractors with operator presence (seat) switches, or it may be necessary to fool the switch while you have that coffee. ....

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charlie
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2000-01-22          12165

i went the cheap route.went to the local farm supply and bought 2 katz magnetic heaters.put one on the oil pan and one on the trany about an hour before start up.they really seem to do the trick.this is the third winter i've had my 1530 and the only problem is the throttle will get moisture in it and freeze up over night.so i have to leave it cracked enough to get a good idle rpm on a cold start.once it warms up it's like it's ment to be.years ago we used to use dip stick heaters but i don't recommend them anymore.the magnitic heaters a handy because of their versatility.you can move them from machine to machine,put them on your shop air compresser on a cold day,or put your old metal coffee pot on it to keep it warm.on machines like our motor grader sometimes we put both on the oil pan.good luck ....

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Tom G
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2000-01-23          12167

Instructions with the block heater I put in my truck said: 'Don't use in tempratures above freezing.' I guess that's a conservative rule of thumb and no damage would occur if temperatures went above freezing for awhile. After all, engines are designed to operate at high temperatures. Heat from the element is going to circulate at least in the water jacket area and dissipate through the block.

In general, heat loss will increase as coolant temperature in the block goes above the outside temperature. There will be an equilibrium point where the heat lost is equal to the block heater input. At that point coolant temperature won't rise further. Of course, as the outside temperature increases, so does the equilbrium point. There is some outside temperature where a block heater left on indefinitely would boil the coolant, but I suspect that would be a fairly warm day.

Guess a rough approximation of an equilbrium point could be made, but it seems easier to just not use heaters on mild days, or use an appliance timer to limit the heating time. In my case, if I start from temperatures 5 to 10 F, the disel starts like on a summer day with around three hours on a heater (including battery blanket).

I guess something like a theromstat and relay could be rigged up for anybody who has to go out of town and is worried about coming back to 2' of snow in the drive and not being able to start the tractor.



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Murf
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2000-01-25          12212

The cause of the noise is indeed the cold trans. and fluid in it, the by-pass valves make a lot of noise when the temps. are low because of the increased viscosity of the fluid running through the system. A block heater will do nothing for this because the heat cannot reach the trans. or its fluid. However, most auto parts or supply houses will sell a "magnetic" block heater, they have a (usually) 250w. heater element wrapped in a large magnetic housing. This can easily be 'stuck' to the bottom of the trans. and plugged in with the engine heater, then remover when the block heater is unplugged. This will make a cold weather work far easier on any machine. Best of luck. ....

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Bill
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2000-01-25          12228

Well Fellas, I don't want to start another sythetic petroleum battle here, but last winter before changing the hydro fluids in my New Holland to synthetics, the hydrolics squeeled, and it was very slow to respond to anything until it was warmed for about 10 minutes. This winter, which is much colder, no squeel and I can move it immediately with no hesitation. Synthetics flow much more easily at low temps, and consequently do not have as hard a time going through the filters. That is the problem, oil trying to get through the filters, and opening the bypass as Murf said. As far as the block heater comments, My F250 book says that there is no further benefit is derived by having the block heater plugged in for more than 3 hours. In other words it won't heat it any more than that. Never heats up the antifreeze to the point that the guage reads anything. It's called sizing the heater for the load. I have had it in for a few days and never showed anything on the guage. Tractor too, just the same. As far as these magnetic heaters, never had one to comment on, so I won't. But I can't immagine that a 250 watt heater could damage any oil, even if it were on the tractor at 32 degrees F. Maybe heat things up at 70 or 80 F, but it would never heat it enough to cause any damage. Not enough BTUs in 250 watts to do it. Just my 2 cents. Bill
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Terry
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2000-01-26          12229

Bill what type of synthetic oil are you using in your tractors hyd system and did you replace your filter at the time of your change. I to have heard some noise on cold mornings and think this would be a way to solve my problem. ....

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MChalkley
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2000-01-26          12231

I'm using Amsoil ATH in my Kubota L4310HST. Before switching over, I used to get fair amount of whining at temps below 30 or so. I used it several hours during the past week at temps between 8 and 20 with no whining at all. I got it going this morning and plowed snow for several hours in 20-25 degree weather, again with no whining at all. I let it warm up about 10 minutes before starting out. ....

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Bill
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2000-01-26          12234

Terry, Mark C and I use bothe the same kind of oil Amsoil HTS, and I did change both filters at that time. Used NH filters so there was no change there. I don't let a long warm up, and we had -10F here one day I used it. No wining. Definately the way to go. Try this test. At 0 F, or taking a sample of the petro oil you are using, compare it to the synthetic at the sme temp for thickness and flow. A little hard to see, if not impossible when it is going through a filter, but how it runs around the container will show you something of what I mean. Definately a diff... On top of that wear is minimized! Bill ....

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Steve
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2000-01-27          12274

Bill or Mark,

I was thinking of using the ATH in my hydro drive on my JD 955. My dealer wouldn't say yay or nay and he is an Amsoil dealer too. My book recommends an SAE10W engine oil instead of the JD Low Viscosity HY-GARD if JD not around. Can I run the ATH even though it is an SAE30 equivalent?

I am running Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 in the engine. It sure starts easier on these 0 deg F nights plowing the drive. Please respond as I would like to order the oil tomorrow morning if i can use it in the hydrostatic drive.

Steve ....

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MChalkley
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2000-01-27          12275

Steve, Amsoil says ATH is an equivalent and they're very much on top of stuff like that. I've called them to ask about equivalents that weren't listed and sometimes they say ok (because it's a new application not in the book yet) and other times they say "nope".

If it's any comfort, Kubota says their Super UDT is 5W, but Amsoil ATH works much better in their tractors in both cold and hot weather than the Super UDT does. (No squealing in cold weather, and lower temps in hot weather.) Hope this helps. ....

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Bill
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2000-01-27          12278

Steve, What I would do would be to call Amsoil and ask if the HST oil can be substituted. Many of the newer New Holland Skid Steers are coming through using engine oil. I would not just use the HST without asking. There certainly is a diff, in those two oils. Amsoil technical support is at 715-392-7101. If you would like, E-mail me direct for more info, or if you want me to check into this for you. Bill ....

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Steve
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2000-02-03          12483

I checked with Amsoil about the interchange with ATH and the JD Hy-GARD low viscosity hydrostat oil. Technician said it would not be a problem at all using the ATH which is an SAE30 weight vs JD SAE10 weight equivalent. The synthetic will flow much easier at low temps and provide better heat resistance at high temps vs SAE10 weight petroleum based fluid. I will be changing the oil out Saturday and will let everyone know how it performs, thanks for the help. ....

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Bill
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2000-02-06          12553

Steve, How did the oil change to AMSOIL HST work out? Bill
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Steve
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2000-02-07          12570

The Amsoil switch went excellent. The stiffness of the forward and reverse pedals is gone as is the groaning and whining of the hydraulics at low temperature. I also changed out the MFWD axle to Series 2000 75W-90 gear oil. It was 15 deg F yesterday and I had to bucket clean my 1200 ' driveway because of all the snow drifts blown in from the neighbors soybean field. It took me 5 hours of time and the tractor ran better than ever with the synthetics. I also added the diesel fuel additive and cetane boost to the fuel.

On the 5 gallon pail of ATH it indicates that it is a replacement for 10W oil. I also noticed that I did not burn as much fuel as I normally would have with the petroleum based oils that were in the tractor before. Overall I am very impressed with the changeover to 100 % synthetics in my JD955. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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2000-02-07          12571

Hey Bill,
Oh My..What are we going to do now?? Looks like we might have played some part in Steve pulling his blindfold off. Hope you warned him that he shouldn't tell people about his "experiences" with synthetics. Otherwise, it'll start all over again...You know what I mean..Steve will want to tell his friends how much better everything works and runs...And the guys who've never used anything but Dino Sludge for 40 years will want to rain on his parade...And start talking about how the worlds going to hell because things are moving too fast for them. ....

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Steve
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2000-02-07          12575

Mike,

I never had a "blindfold" on. I have been using synthetics for years (Mobil 1) in my cars and trucks. Within the last 4 months I have started using Amsoil products after doing ALOT of research into the different companies that produce synthetics. I have my 97 F350 PSD truck converted completely over to Amsoil synthetics including the dual remote bypass system for extended drain intervals. I asked the question about compatibility of ATH on this site because of others experiences with similiar tractors to mine. I only post my personal results so others can weigh the options of petroleum vs synthetic. In no way do I like to preach about how much better they are than petroleum based fluids. That decision is up to the individual, I am not out to change anyones mind. Bill, thanks for your help though. ....

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MChalkley
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2000-02-07          12577

Steve, skip the justifications. You're part of the lunatic fringe now. How does it feel to be crazy? ;>) ....

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MichaelSnyder
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2000-02-07          12580

Well, So much for having a little humor on the CTB.
It was probably a lame attempt anyway.. Steve, Glad to hear that the conversion went well. ....

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Bill
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2000-02-08          12627

Steve, Mike, I just sat here for a few laughing like a nut, so maybe Mark is right. Hummor is ok, just Steve seems new to the board and didn't see our blowout!

Steve, Mikes comments were in response to a VERY lengthly thread that had been on here a few months back, nothing to do with you. If you are interested I think it was called Synthetic vs Petroleum and oil filters, or something like that. Many of the threads were pulled at the end by the web man, because of content, but you'll get the drift, and I think you'll understand the comment.(Still laughing) Got a little heated and outa hand at some points. All in all, I think it was informative and even funny, definately a good read. Glad to hear all went so very well. Like Mike said, keep it to yourself or they'll all start referin to ya as what Mark said. Really does make a believer of ya once ya use it huh!! Oh well, steve, the rest of the world is just so very slow to learn. BTW I started out using Castrol synthetic and Mobil in a 1986 Mustang GT (new) and ended up doing more research as you did, and switched to Amsoil. Glad to see that somebody else, besides me, Mike, Mark and a few others here, came to the same conclusion. We can't all be crazy!! (pun intended) Bill ....

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MChalkley
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2000-02-08          12628

Bill, I'm glad my comments branding you as 'crazy' weren't offensive to you. I forget sometimes that it might be because I've developed the habit of telling people up front that I'm a nut and know it. It accomplishes a number of beneficial things: It keeps them from being surprised by finding out on their own. It causes them to pay attention better because they're looking for evidence. It lessens the chance they'll call me one because they know they won't be telling me anything. And, since I really believe it, I don't get offended if they call me one, anyway. In fact, it just increases their credibility. ;>) ....

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Steve
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2000-02-08          12629

Mike, I didn't mean to sound so defensive, sorry. I go through similiar discussions with people on the ford-diesel website so I guess I just read your post from the wrong angle. Yes, I am new to posting here but have been following the site for about a year or so now. This is an excellent site and I hope to participate here more though I do spend most of my time on the truck site. It would be kinda boring anyways if everyone had the same opinion on things, keep the good info coming! ....

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MichaelSnyder
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2000-02-09          12653

Couldn't agree more Steve,
I sometimes forget about the newer guys who may not know me as well. Like Mark, I'm fairly quick to tell you how I see it..Of course I do a fair job of making an idiot out of myself at times as well...(No comments from the old timers!)
Glad to see you enjoy the CTB. Most of us are here everyday, I'm generally here Mon thru Fri. Mostly because I can rummage around here thru a T1 line at work. For those who aren't familiar with a T1, its a dedicated line which can multiple computers...hence its as fast as my computer can handle..You mentioned a Ford Diesel site...You know of a Cummins Diesel site?? ....

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Steve
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2000-02-09          12657

Mike,

Yes there is a site for you Dodge boys, it's: http://www.turbodieselregister.com
By the way, the Ford is a 7.3 liter (444 cu in) not 7.2 as I saw mentioned in one of your posts. And I usually am the one passing the Dodge's not as you indicated of how it is!! LOL, LOL ....

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MichaelSnyder
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2000-02-09          12660

Your right, thanks for setting me straight on the 7.3L thing, Seems like I have too many Liter rated engines to keep track of. Miss the good ol' days of 305,302,350,351.
My Cummins vs. International comparison posting was mentioned to serve a specific purpose, of which it did successfully. But while we're talking about it, Like I said(I think), in a different way....I've seen the blue ribbon go to either side about 100 times..So it is not always correct to assume one way or the other. Now that I own both makes (2000 F250, 98' 24v Cummins), I'm getting more familiar with the Ford/International and its charactor. Just have a bit more experience with the Cummins. Actually..alot more, the Ford hardly has 100 miles on the odo. So things will be interesting down the road, after the PS is broke in. ....

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Bill
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2000-02-10          12684

Mike, What is interesting about your rendition of cubes is that you have GM and Ford, but none of those Dodge/Chryco. numbers, Like 318, 360, 383, 400, 413, 440........ Hmmmmmm You musta bought that Dodge for the Cummings, not Dodge. Truth is I wish Cummings was an option on my F 250, but with fuel prices the way they are now, kinda wish it ran on gas too. Glad to see ya bought a Ford this time though. If it's a stick don't mash it in second gear, or you could clean the teeth. Don't know if they resolved that issue yet. To much torque. Sorry about the bustin. Bill
....

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MichaelSnyder
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2000-02-11          12703

In truth Bill,
You hit the nail on the head. Although to Dodge's credit, I used to beat the tar out of the Dodge trucks on the farm and they took it without complaint.
Used to be a Die hard Chevy person before they learned to engineer "cheap" into just about everything..Need I bring up using a gasoline block as a Diesel??..as only one of my many less than wonderful examples/experiences. Never cared much for the Henry Ford products until my father had repeat luck with em. In truth.. My Dodge purchase was 75% Cummins,15% looks/design,10% ehh..they were good on the farm.. Cummins sounds & starts better/quicker. Better/more engine bay workable area. The Ford is a little cranky when starting, and sounds wimpy overall. Not to mention the Ford is still using Glow plugs, of which I cannot imagine will be easily replaced, after looking in the crampt engine compartment. Of course the Ford is definitely quieter, which is liked better by everyone in the truck but me. I fully expect the Ford to easily be on par with the Cummins. In many respects it has already surpassed the Dodge. ie; extendable mirrors, Powerful 4W disc brakes,ect.. Keep in mind, this is OMO. So I hope we avoid the "vs." battle. Having kept the Dodge will allow me to really see differences over time. Your right about the fuel prices, at least they've gone down a bit from $2.19 to $1.99 a Gallon around here. Thank god for my 30MPG 4 banger Acura. ....

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Dave
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2000-06-29          17565

Sir;
I was thinking about switching over to Amsoil, but the dealer advised me agisnt it. I've used it in about everything else, from chainsaws to my M274 MULE to my truck(now with 140k) & it all seems fine. Any majior reason not to? Will it void the warn? ....

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MChalkley
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2000-07-02          17629

No, it will not void your warranty. Your dealer's not in the know on this one. Suggest to him that he contact Kubota's warranty department for a little education.

Mark ....

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