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 | chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 104 iowa 
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2005-02-27 106942
I need to buy a compact to mow 4 acres and do dirt work, and snow removal. Many suggest a 72" MMM. So I am wondering if a tc29 or tc33 with MMM and supersteer are the most efficient for mowing and light loader work? Have also looked at JD 4115/72" MMM. And do rear discharge MMM work as well and groom as nicely as side discharge?
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan 
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2005-02-28 106952
I have a TC33D with SuperSteer. No loader though, and I wouldn't put one on for doing dirt work (I have a skid steer and a backhoe, but from time to time I need to move a little dirt---a LITTLE dirt). The tractor isn't large enough to do anything more than move loose dirt around--I wouldn't dig with it in hard-pack. I tested a used one and was very disappointed about breakout/dig-in capacity--it couldn't even lift the front wheels. I use mine commercially for brushhogging, scraper box grading, power raking etc. and for that it is excellent. And the SuperSteer is a god-send especially for mowing. If I brush hog and hit the right-hand cutting brake with cruise control on, I can get a zero turning radius. Have fun trying to use the left cutting brake under any circumstance unless you have three feet and a monkey. With cruise on, touching the left pedal turns it off). I hope they fired the guy who designed that system. For the cost of renting a skid steer or even a full size backhoe you would spend a half to a third less than the cost of the loader and get done in a third of the time. The CUT loader really isn't up to the challenge. But that's just my opinion as they say. ....
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2005-02-28 106968
I have the B7800 ( 30hp ) with the FEL, and find it to work well for genenral landscaping work around the property. It will certainly lift the front wheels off the ground, and plenty more. With the 60" bucket, I can move about 1/4-1/3 of a yard per bucket, and have not trouble digging a bucket full, at least in my soil. For commercial work, it is undersized, but for landscaping around the property, it's an invaluable addition to the tractor (IMHO).
I also mow with the 7800, does a nice job of it. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA 
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2005-02-28 106986
I like rear discharge but only NH offers it on MMM. As far as quality of cut, I think it depends on the engineering. Some side discharges are bad. Walker commercial riding mowers have a rear discarge option and they do a nice job. I have never tried a NH rear so I have no idea if they do well. I am just not fond of supersteer since it does not really improve outside turning radius. Have you demoed the 4115 with MMM. I think you will find a very nice turning radius. ....
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 | treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2005-03-01 107034
I have a TC33D with a 72" MMM side discharge and loader. I think the rear discharge decks are mulching decks. Mine would windrow until I took off my side chute. Now it blows the grass out nice and even. I mow about 6 acres and do as much of the yard as I can. I have done some heavier work with the loader and am happy with what it does. It will lift the front tires if you curl down. I have much larger tractors in the family but am always happy to use mine. It's quick and very maneuvable. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-01 107039
TREEMAN: I got the tested one's front wheels off the ground too when it curled--but wouldn't you argee that sign of a strong or worth-while loader is the ability to drive up to a pile (with the bucket curled or not) and be able to lift the front wheels using only the loader cylinders (a.k.a. down-pressure). My buddy's 1968 2000 with a loader is useless for dirt work as it won't lift the front wheels either without curling the bucket, and then the loader itself raises not the wheels. I think the reason the loaders don't have good down-pressure is that the surface area/or volume on the "down" or "retract" side of the hyraulic cylinders is a farction of the "up" or extend" side.
On my backhoe I have to have down pressure on the loader to transfer the weight to it and the outriggers to keep it planted in the ground when digging; I have to think anyone with a backhoe of any size would need that too. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-01 107044
I have never driven a tractor that would not raise the front end off the ground with just the boom cylinders, and that is with nothing hanging on the back helping. The only time I need to curl out is if I am raising it higher and the boom cylinders reach the end of their cycle. Of course I have never driven a NH with supersteer. ....
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2005-03-01 107045
earthwrks: You are correct about the hydraulic cylinders not having the same surface area on each side of the pistons. On one side you loose the push but gain speed.
I have operated larger commercial equipment also and yes you can dig like crazy. I didn't buy my tractor for large jobs though. My next door neighbor is a excavator and has VERY large equipment so I have him do the large jobs. For the jobs that I bought it for it does a good job and that's all that counts. With smaller machines it's more about technique than with larger machines. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-01 107049
DENWOOD: That's why I mentioned about lifting the front end and the importance. As my neighbor with the same machine as mine (TC33D w/SuperSteer) pointed out since the front axle sits about 8-10" more forward than non-SS, the tractor has more stability when lifting with the loader (the principle being less leverage on the front axle)
TREEMAN: Like my reply to Denwood, I felt that anyone not familiar with loaders and the uses thereof may benefit from the not lifting the front axle comment especially if they were considering a backhoe attachment. Too many time guys take the uninformed advice of a dealer and will plunk down $20,000, get it home thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread and are sorely disappointed---case in point my buddy with the old 2000 loader---in fact that's how I met him---his tractor wouldn't move 50,000 cubic yards of backfill on his 13 acres so he hired me. His 2000 is for sale--$4500 w/loader and 8' Ford back blade, and 6' landscape rake (he paid $6500 in '96) ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-01 107050
I think the less leverage depends on which loader you have. I think Oneace said in an earlier thread that the 7308 loader is in the same spot so less leverage is true. I believe the newer series of loaders is moved forward with the axle so it does not give less leverage, just more counterweight since the backend is farther from the loader pivot and front axle. I still don't understand why you can't pick up the front end with the boom. If loader is farther forward, it should be easier for the loader. If is is the same, it is just a little weight of the axle/wheels moved forward a little. It should still pick it up. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-01 107057
DENWOOD: The comparison I was making was about my neighbor's when he compared apple-for-apple loaders against his buddy's with a non-SS. And I would agree that the loader brand and even model makes a difference. I didn't take that into account as a broad statement----my bad :). Ideally the loader needs to be tucked into the front as close as practicable to the front axle as that becomes a fulcrum for the entire machine. Preventing pivot action at the fulcrum is where the counterweight comes in. ....
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 | drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2005-03-01 107063
chrisscholz, I have similar uses for my tractor. I have a TC33D and 7308 FEL it will easily lift the front end. I have moved over a hundred tons of stone and dug many tons of dirt (with tooth bar) over the past three years and the tractor has performed flawlessly. I also mow but use a 3pt mower. I would get the 33 instead of the 29 for the small diff in price about $1000.00 when I bought mine. Good luck
P.S. If you want to use the brakes for steering you don't need a monkey just angle the seat and sit with both legs on the same side to work the pedals at the same time it it very easy and works great. ....
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| brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-03-01 107074
My TC40 has no problem doing the lifting, infact that is how they told me to easily put stands under for tire repair.
On the same note though, I have to agree with earthworks. trying to actually dig with a cut puts alot of undue forces on the rig and fel. Digging in soft sandy soil or into piles of gravel are not what I am talking about. Digging into hard packed ground is though. IMO running a tractor with the bucket down and the front end off the ground is asking for big repairs. They just dont seem to be built for that like a skidsteer. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-01 107076
Isn't charging $1000 for 4 more HP one of those "unexplained mysteries"? To me it defies logic that anyone would produce tractors---or anything else---with such a small spread of HP like we see in CUTs. Can anyone shed some light on this?
I know from my automotive engineering background that the labor unions drive how many parts or assemblies are on a particular car/truck, not the designers and not the engineers. It's been six years since my involvement...but at that time GM had it the worst dealing with this issue. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-01 107077
Forgot to ask: You guys with the TC33D's that don't have any problem lifting the front wheels with the only the loader...what kind of weight--operator, MMM, backblade, etc. did you have on the tractor besides the loader?
I got to thinking about the used one I tried that couldn't lift. It had the MMM still on and just a 5' box scraper. Operator about 200lb. Is it possible it was taxed with all that weight? ....
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| brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-03-01 107098
Earthwrks
Maybe I am way off base here, but with the front wheels off the ground I would have only 2wd pushing the tractor. At that rate I would not be able to run it too far trying to scrape raw earth? If I am correct with my thinking, the Skidsteer has most of its weight on the back tires or over them anyway so this is not an issue.
BTW
Stop talking about skidsteers, I have had a bug in my but for awhile now for one, especislly since my best buddy 500 yards thru the woods from me just sold his last one and I no longer have access to one anytime I want by taking a short walk thru the woods! LOL ....
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2005-03-01 107104
earthwrks
Your question about the 4hp costing $1000 is interesting. That 4hp is equal to a 13.8% increase. That would be like adding 40hp onto a 300hp truck engine. Manufacturers add anywhere from$1000 to $3000 to add a blower to get the extra 40hp. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-02 107111
BROKENARROW: Yep about 2wd --however if you are trying to breakout a hard packed pile or just trying loosen it there are times you need to start somewhere off the bottom in order to take advantage of the bucket curl--the machine forces the bucket thru the pile rather than trying to lift it from the bottom up. Then trying to curl. Even using my-machine-that- will-never-be-mentioned-here-again has to do that depending on traction and what I'm lifting---say, wet clay on a slippery base.
TREEMAN: That's not really a fair analogy bringing a specialized automotive market segement into it. What would be fair, is if the dealers had many different diesel engine choices or several gas engine choices. When I bought my '03 Dodge Ram diesel they had two diesel options: non-High-Output and the H.O.. For $500 more I opted for the HO which gave me somehwere around 40hp more which equates to only .01%
....
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| drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2005-03-02 107123
Earthwrks if 40hp is only a .01% increase it means your truck has 400,000hp. I have lifted the front of my tractor with implements on the back ( mower, rake, hoe ect...)and also with none. I do not have a MMM and I weigh 325lbs. So far this tractor has shown no lack of power. My neighbor has a JD 4310 he had some large hay bales delivered, but could not lift them with his loader. So I tried and had no trouble moving them. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2005-03-02 107143
My bad. I was thinking in terms of dollars for the increase. In terms of percntage increase for HP then it's about 13-14%. BUT, and it's a big but, if we look at HP per dollar it still doesn't make sense for diesel tractors to cost $250 per extra HP versus $12.50 per extra HP. ....
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