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craigl
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4 Slate Mills, VA
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2004-06-14          88534

This has probably been answered somewhere in this discussion, but a search on subject turned up zilch. Here's my question - I have about a thousand feet of gravel driveway here in VA and it develops potholes at the rate of a few each year. Before I got my 3830 (FEL and BH), I paid to have it scraped and regravelled every few years. Now that I have the capability, what is the best implement to use for maintaining this type of driveway - a box blade to loosen old gravel and a simple 3ph back blade to smooth or just the box or just the simple blade? The driveway is mostly flat with several curves, about 300 ft of minor side ditching needed.

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-14          88537

Ditching. That says grader blade to me.

I think a grader blade and a chain harrow or similar drag mat will do the what you want done. ....

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jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 351 Northern Virginia
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2004-06-15          88544

The box blade will have a tendancy to dig up the base material. You don't want fist sized rocks mixed in with the pea gravel on the surface. I would go with a grader blade, but get the "feet" that attach to the back. They work somewhat like "training wheels" and should help keep it from digging in. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88553

You are stuck in the middle of two problems.

A grader blade will do a better job of routine 'polishing' and will be usefull for a variety of other tasks.

A box blade, especially one with scarifiers will do a far better job of serious make-overs on the driveway and will be required to dig out potholes. If you just fill potholes they will come right back since the material all around the pothole is super compacted from the wheels colliding with the rim as they roll through it. In order to remove them they must be ripped up and repacked uniformly.

Based on what you are wanting to do, I would have to say that a box blade with scarifiers and a hydraulic toplink will be your best bet.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-15          88558

I learn something from this board every day. I thought it was just a hole in the dirt. Thanks Murf.

I guess I don't live in pot-hole country. Our version is the washboard that develops on the up-hill stretches of the gravel roads. Something best fixed by smoothing rather than re-digging. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88565

Actually Mark, you're about to learn two things today. LOL.

The washboard is just a wide, skinny, open-ended pothole. It is caused by people trying to a) accelerate too fast up a hill, or b) brake too hard coming down a hill. Both do the same thing, just in opposite directions.

Acceleration causes 'power hop' (mentioned on another thread) where the power to the wheels exceeds the traction they can develop, the wheel spins a little, then grabs, over & over. This causes the ground to be bumpy. Then the next time a wheel passes this spot it loses traction while in the air, spins up a little, the car slows down a little, then it drops back to the road surface spinning and the process starts all over again.

Downhill is just the opposite, the braking causes minute skids with the same effect on the road surface.

If you do not remove the washboard completely you end up with a road surface which is unevenly compacted. This will allow the washboard to come back a LOT faster.

Stabilizing the road surface with something like CaCl wil go a long way to preventing the situation from developing too.

The best way to prevent washboard is to just educate the drivers, you accelerate BEFORE a hill and almost coast up it, then slow down at the top and basically coast down the hill keeping braking to only the bare minumum.

We maintain a LOT of private roads in cottage country around Southern Ontario, the ones that have educated road users have seen a dramatic reduction in required maintenance.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-15          88570

Makes sense. I knew what caused them.

I guess I have a "soft" gravel drive. Basically crushed rock over sand dune. It has a rise of about 1 foot in 10 and we get daily visits from the city handicapped bus. I have to run something over it (usually a chain harrow, spikes up)two or three times a month to smooth it out.

It is only a year old and I laid down too much rock, but as it gets older and more compacted I may need to consider churning it up a little. Thanks for the insight.



....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88585

If you can get limestone chips, small pieces of crushed rock no bigger than the size of a Smartie, spreading a thin layer on top will often stop that happening. The sharp irregular edges sort of lock together making a very hard, stable surface.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-15          88587

What's a Smartie? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88590

Oooops, my Canadian flag is showing again, it's a small M&M but made with dark milk chocolate.

Sorry about that, eh.

Best of luck. ....

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craigl
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4 Slate Mills, VA
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2004-06-15          88611

Thanks for the info, guys. I'm inclined to go with the box and scarifiers simply because I really want to dig this driveway up a bit and then smooth it out. Also, if my teensy neophyte tractor owner brain is correct, I can also use the box to really smooth out the few acres I eventually want to clear. Let's see - need grapples on the FEL to move those logs, I got the BH for digging out the stumps, FEL for filling the stump holes, and a finish mower for mowing my finely graded lawn, so I got it made. Now, if I'd just ordered that air conditioned cab and that Jethro Tull CD..... ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-06-15          88612

I just realized that I forgot to post a link to the grapple Chief told you about. Here it is. ....


Link:   Borgford grapple

 
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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-06-15          88619

Oh man! Mark! You missed out on your childhood! ;o) I love Smarties. At least I think they were like Sweet Tarts. They were prized catches on Halloween. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-06-15          88620

I realize you guys are making the decision between a box blade and grader blade but I have almost 2,000 ft. of gravel driveway and I maintain it with a Land Pride 1584 landscaping rake. I try to keep as much grass as is possible growing in the center of and on each edge of the gravel drive, allowing only the areas the tires travel over to leave two tracks. Periodically I will go over the drive way to even up the gravel with the rake. Wash outs are another story altogether but I just try to keep things leveled out. I use a mixture of driveway gravel mix called "crush and run". It is basically a mix of everything from about 1" on down to ground limestone compound. Packs down real good and grass will grow in it. Put down about 10" to start with and just keep it leveled out. It runs about $255 per 23 ton load. ....

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lucerne
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 192 Lucerne Maine
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2004-06-15          88625

Murf, I have been asking questions on road repair, how to and what to use. We have alot of camp roads and driveways around here. The comment about having to cut out potholes, my old Kubota dealer told me the same thing but didn't explain why. Very nice job on the explanation, thanks. I called him about a box blade scarifier, he said I need a scarifier and a landscape rake. Cut out the holes and then rake toward the middle. What do you think? This is something I want to expand into but don't want to spend $$$ on equipment I don't need or doesn't do what I need. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-06-15          88640

I use a box blade to maintain my 800 ft. gravel drive and about 1/2 mile of gravel road, and JT cds to maintain my sanity. The box blade does a great job leveling off the road, setting the drainage grade, and keeping the pot holes at bay. I borrowed the neighbors landscape rake for a try and although it did a good job spreading the gravel evenly, it doesn't cut like the box blade for leveling, or setting and maintaining the drainage grade. If you keep the driveway crowned for drainage, potholes are few and far between, even after heavy rains. With good drainage, a pot-holed driveway will be "Living in the Past". ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-15          88650

Drainage? Rain? What the heck is that? ....

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jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 351 Northern Virginia
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2004-06-16          88656

Drainage, rain? A few weeks ago we had a storm blow thru that dumped 2 inches of rain in less than 30 minutes. It was more than any of the natural drains could handle. My neighbors driveway ended up in my backyard. Part of mine ended up in the ditch along the road. Another neighbor of mine lost 13 trees. Most were over 80' tall and they didn't break off... they all uprooted. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-16          88664

Lucerne, your dealer was sort of right.

Basically what he is trying to say is that you want to a) break up the old road surface, then b) re-grade and re-distribute the material into the right place and composition order.

IMHO and experience though a rake is not the best choice for this job. It's flexible tines tend to create a sort of suspension action and when it bites in the tines reach a certain point and then jump clear to release the spring tension, this leaves lumps and bumps which mean another unnecessary pass over that area.

What we do is work over the road surface with a box blade with the scarifiers down, the rear blade acts like a big skid shoe to limit the depth of cut the scarifiers can make. This is VERY important, if you cut too deep the material will not be properly compacted and will result in a very uneven surface latter. You want to go JUST deep enough to eliminate the problems.

When the road is uniform again we then lift the scarifiers and do whatever re-grading is required. When we have the bumps out and the grade right then we switch to a rear blade. We use a double offset blade, this type swivels in three places. Firstly where the blade and frame meet, secondly where the frame and the 3ph meet, and finally the ends of the blade swivel up & down vertically. With this you can move the whoile blade out to the side, bring the lead edge of the blade forward, and put the lead edge down a little. In this attitude you can begin to bring the material back up out of the ditch where the shoulders have fallen in. Then flatten the blade out and bring the excess in off the shoulders. Then finally bring the balde back in behind the machine leaving the blade almost flat (shoulder side a little lower) and the lead edge just slightly forward and build the crown and do the final 'polishing'.

One important trick is to learn when you're done, if you over-work the road it will be a big sandy, dusty mess for a while, you want to do just enough to fix it, avoid the temptation to make it into a hobby.

Best of luck. ....

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lucerne
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 192 Lucerne Maine
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2004-06-16          88700

Murf, thanks for all the info. A few more questions!!! The 110 offers a rear box blade to match the machine, it's 84" and I believe it weighs 1200lbs. It has a hydraulic scarifier, and it is recomended to have a top and tilt 3pt hitch and controll. I don't have any rear hydraulics, only for the hoe and thumb. Will a regular box blade of the same size do fine? Do you have a link to the adjustable blade you described earlier? Thanks again ....

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Bubbaloo
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5 Northern California, Susanville
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2004-06-16          88701

WOW What great information onthis thread. For those of use who have to maintain our own roads this thread is worth the price of admission. Thanx to all. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-06-18          88789

OK...listen up, go to www tr3rake dot com. That is the best implement on the market for this job. On the web site the offer a free intro video. Order it. In the video one of the things the do is fix a gravel drive with many potholes. I have one know & it is amazing! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-18          88807

With all due respect to grasgod's opinion, I have used a TR3Rake before, it is a handy piece of equipment to be sure, BUT, to say it would replace a box blade, who writes the ads for this company? If you were looking for a single piece of equipment to maintain a horse riding area, sure, good but expensive choice, but it just can't physically do the things a box blade can, period. The biggest restriction is the fact that it doesn't have the heft or ability to put the scarifiers down far enough to do a proper job of it.

Lucerne, have a look at the link below, it is hard to make it out in the picture but that blade pivots right at the 3pth tower as well as at the back by the blade itself. As for the lack of rear hyraulics, that won't stop you, you will just have to get on & off a lot more than if you had them. You say you have a hoe with thumb, and I can't make it out in pic # 11 but if you have a hoe you must have some place to tie it into the hydraulics. A simple valve need not be expensive and you could 'create' your own remote easily enough. IMHO, the tilt is not nearly as critical as the toplink.

Bubbaloo, thanks for the kind words.

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Servis - Rhino Blades

 
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lucerne
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 192 Lucerne Maine
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2004-06-18          88810

Murf, Thanks for getting back to me. Looks like Rhino makes nice rugged stuff. Nice box blade too. I think it's the one that Deere sells with their name on it for the 110. I was thinking the same thing about the hydraulics. Deere says that their system can't be field installed.I believe it can but thats besides the point. Like you say, use the existing lines and make your own controll. I guess I'm getting like too many people today, if you can't buy it, do with out. It looks like their rear blade would work for ditching at least on roads that where ditched and have filled in over the years. Thanks for the link and the info. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-06-21          89091

Murf - On my tr3 rake I can set my scarifiers to penetrate 4" into the soil. secondly, My tr3 rake wieghs over 900 pounds! What is the weight of a bow blade....400 - 500lbs? ....

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Oliver
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 210 Massachusetts
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2004-06-21          89095

I'm intrigued by the TR3. I have a lawn to put in and three gravel driveways to maintain. Is this a better tool than a box blade for me? Also, I have horses -- and someday might have an outside ring. I have a 5' York rake already, if that makes any difference. What does a TR3 cost? They don't list price on the website.

Thanks! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-22          89129

I find it interesting that the TR3 could be so heavy, the one I tried seemed to be a LOT less than that.

I use a Rhino HB 84" (7' wide) box blade, according to the manufacturer it weigh 1068 pounds, and there's a LOT of steel in it.

The TR3 seems to be about 25' of frame and two sets of scarifiers, one plate-type set horizontally and one tooth-type set vertically, a hitch and some big gauge wheels. My steel data book says if it is made of 1/4" wall, 3"x3" tubing (not angle) it would be about 6 pounds per foot, at 25' that would be about 150 pounds for the frame, even if all the other componenets weighed that much again it would only 300 pounds, not 900.

As for scarifier penetration, that is a function of two things, first is force, weight pushing down and power pushing it through the soil, the second is resistance, the ability of the soil to resist penetration.

Since the TR3 is MUCH lighter than my box blade, and it has 10 shanks instead of the 8 on my box blade it will naturally have a MUCH harder time to penetrate tough soil.

Now, having said all of that, don't misinterpret what I'm saying, the TR3 would probably be one of my first picks if I was maintaining a horse riding area. The problems and goals are different when you are talking about road or driveway construction. It is a costly piece of equipment, but it appears to be well thought out and made. It's just not, IMHO, a 'be all and end all Swiss Army knife' it's made out to be.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-06-24          89254

Murf - I'm not sure if the tr3 you tried was older. Mine was purchased in March of this year. It has 6 sarifier blades. My old Jd 790 used to struggle lifting it. The angle iron on it is increadably heavy. I only have a 5'er & when it arrived from the shipping company, There shipping sheet said the wieght of the package was 1023lbs. I dont know what the pallet wieghed but I know it wasnt more then 100 lbs. This this rips threw hard packed clay no sweat. ....

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grassgod
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2004-06-24          89255

Oliver - Are you in Southern Mass? I am in a shoreline town in CT. If your not that far, You can borrow it for a few days to see for yourself. I live in Guilford. I also have Horses & I maintain my turn out & ring & it is a must for that. It takes me about 45 min. to an hour to get to springfield from my home. ....

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Oliver
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 210 Massachusetts
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2004-06-24          89256

I'm in the northwest corner of Mass, on the New York, Vermont border. About an hour north of Springfield. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-24          89271

Grassgod, I suspect the shipping documents contained an error.

Really heavy 3" x 3" angle iron is still only going to be about 5 pounds per foot. Even if your TR3 weighs 750 pounds, that would be 750/5=150 linear feet. Since your TR3 is 5" wide that means you would need to have 30 cross members to use up that much steel.

It's also interesting that TR3 doesn't publish any spec.'s or data on their site or brochure.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-06-25          89312

Oliver - I have a video you can have that they sent me about the tr3. If you would like it, click on my user name & email me with your mailing address so I can mail it to you. ....

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