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New BX2230 lacks power

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BigJimB
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 47 Lancaster, Pa
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2004-04-11          82790

I just received my new BX2230 FEL, 60,mmm and rear bagger on Friday. After I finished mowing the easy parts of my lawn, I hit the banks were my driveway and garage were cut down to be level with the house. I found I did not have enough power to climb the bank with the mower running and in high range. At first I thought it might be spinning so I tried 4wd but the same thing, about 1/2 way up the slope the tractor just stopped. No wheels are spinning or does the engine sound like it wants to stall. It will pull the hill in low range with the mower running but not in high range. I even took off the loader and bagger to reduce weight but it still stops 1/2 up the hill in high range.
My 18 HP Ford garden tractor, gas engine with hydrostatic would go right up in high range. I checked and the brake was not on. Is there something wrong with my tractor or just not enough power for the heavier tractor? The slope is 4 ft high in 12 ft at the steepest part.


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-04-11          82797

You didn't say if your Ford will go up the same slope running a 60 inch mowing deck..........

This sounds like normal performance to me given the power drain of a five foot mowing deck and a brand new, stiff engine. ....

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blizzard
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2004-04-12          82806

Specs for BX2230 say high range max speed is 8.1 MPH.
Why are you mowing so fast, especially uphill?

bliz ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-04-12          82822

I'm with Blizz, why on earth would you be cutting in high range.

In fact every owners manual I recall seeing says that high range is for 'rapidly moving between places, roading the machine, or generally moving the machine while no work is being done' or words to that effect.

Certainly mid-range is best for mowing, low range on steep slopes, etc.

Best of luck. ....

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BigJimB
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 47 Lancaster, Pa
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2004-04-12          82837

My old Ford I only used low range for heavy work like in using a tiller when I wanted to go real real slow. I only have high and low range. I figured low was for using the loader or very heavy mowing.
I found out from a mechanic that they have changed the way the hydrostatic that I used in my 20 yr old Ford to now.
The old Ford low range is a creeper gear. Even with the Ford I never mowed at full speed in high.
He also said that they now have a way to releive pressure on the Hydro if it is pulling too hard and the tractor will stop. So Now I know to use low range. I only have 2 hrs on this unit. ....

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jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-04-13          82919

The engine power in the BX series tractors is a good balance between size and weight. If they had any more power packed into that small of a package, they would become dangerous. People tend to expect more out of CUTs and Sub-CUTS than they were designed for. Relax and go a little slower. It will give your lawn a better finish cut anyway. ....

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BigJimB
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-04-13          82946

Thanks for the help, if it ever stops raining, I will get out and try low range for mowing. I thought it was like a creeper gear, more like low range on my 4wd truck. You only use it when you need it.
I also plan to use this tractor to put my trailers up in the back yard rather than the truck when the ground is soft. That is one reason I wanted 4wd was to pull the trailers up the same hills and keep my truck off the soft ground. One of the trailers weighs around 1,700 lbs Am I asking too much of a BX2230 to pull it up a 4 ft rise in 12 ft slope if the grass is dry? The slope is only 12 ft long then it is flat again. I have not used it to pull a trailer around yet. I will start with a lighter one and see how it does. Any good suggestions for someone who is new to using this tractor for pulling trailers. I am not counting on it pulling the heavy trailer up the hill but will probably give it a try in a few weeks once everything is dry, unless I am going to do some damage to the tractor. Thanks for all of the advice, I have leared a lot from reading various postings and still have a lot to learn. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-13          82947

Check your owners manual. There is an entire section on towing with the tractor. I beleive the manual addresses stability issues with the weight of the towed vehicle vs. the weight of the tractor, especially if you are on slopes.

On a 4/12 slope with a 1700lb load, with rolling friction, you will have a line pull of 650lbs. You rolling friction could be a lot higher if you are pulling on soft ground. The 650lb line pull should be considered a minimum. Use the 650lbs and check the towing capacity of the tractor in the operators manual. Good luck. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          82948

I am not at home now with the manual but I think it states 1,750 lb as the limit. If I try will it hurt the tractor or will I just have to back down the hill and use the truck? ....

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beagle
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2004-04-13          82954

I would not want to recommend exceeding the listed limits of the tractor, but going up-hill will probably cause the same situation you had mowing. The tractor will come to a stop when you exceed the pressure relief of the hydrostat, or you will loose traction. Make sure you are in low gear. Be VERY carefull coming back down a slope with a towed load. With the weight of the trailer, you could loose control of the tractor. I would recommend backing the trailer down the slope and only towing from the drawbar, not from a hitch on the 3-point. The drawbar will keep the towed load below the back axle. We pulled an 8N off the neighbor two years ago when he attempted a tow off the three point. The torque of the tractor brought the machine over on him. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          83035

I guess I will stick with the truck for the heavy trailer, I do not want to get into big trouble. I will use the hitch that is on the tractor for all towing. The manual says the max towing weight is 1765, that is not enough above the 1,700 lbs of my trailer to push it on a hill. I might use it to bring it down into the driveway I have about 200 ft of flat driveway to get stopped. But I think I will use the truck to get it back up into the back yard.
Thanks for the advice. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83038

When I cut with my 4410, I use A range which is the lowest of the 3 ranges. A range allows me to cut faster than the MMM can keep up with in many instances. Cutting in a lower range is much easier on the hydro pump and system as well. Less wear and tear and heat build up. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-13          83040

The issue I was talking about coming down a grade has to do with the same 650lb line load developed going up the hill. Coming down, you have 650lbs pushing against the rear of the tractor. I you should turn, a component of the 650lbs will try to push the rear of the tractor wherever it wants to go. This could exceed the tractive force between the rear wheels and the work surface, pushing the tractor and trailer into a jack-knife. Dangerous situation at best. Backing the trailer down the hill eliminates this risk. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          83042

I only have High and Low so I will try Low range next time I mow. If it ever stops raining.
Per my manual low range has a top speed or 3.7 miles per hr which should be plenty fast for mowing. Even when I used High range I was not going fast. Just getting used to the tractor I went pretty slow and careful. That 60 in mower covers a lot of ground on each pass so the mowing time was still quicker than the old tractor with a smaller mower at a higher speed. It sure cuts nice and smooth and I was very happy how much more I could trim with the large deck. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83043

In high range the tractor looses a tremendous mechanical advantage. Like trying to start off in 3rd gear in an automobile as an example. At some point the hydrostatic system will go into bypass once it has reached its max. working load. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          83044

Beagle
I think you have just convinced me to not use the tractor on the big trailer. I will let the truck do the work with it.
Thanks for keeping me out of trouble ....

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BigJimB
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-04-13          83048

Chief
I think I am starting to understand that Hydrostatic is not the same as an automatic in a car. I still keep a stick in my truck and car because I like the control they give. I thought with a hydrostatic it was like having a truck with High and low range. High for most situations and you just adjusted your speed as needed. Low for really rough work like tilling etc.
For Mowing I would never want to go back to a manual transmission. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83049

Just how big of a trailer are you talking about? ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          83051

The Trailer bed is 7 by 12 but it was built by a friend and myself and is overbuilt. Weight is 1,700 lb ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83052

I wouldn't think that would be too much for it to move in low range. A friend of mine moves his 18' gooseneck trailer with his B2400 on a regualar basis and has no trouble. I move my 26' Sea Ray on its trailer with my 4410 in low range with no problems. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83053

Do you have a hitch like one of the Bad River trailer hitches or like the one in my pics? Makes things soooooo much easier. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-13          83055

Chief
Love your hitch, how do I get one like it? ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83056

It is home made. Email me and I can help you out with how to make one. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-13          83057

deeregreenyellow at yahoo dot com (I spell it out like this so the web spiders don't see it and start spamming me) ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-13          83060

A couple of thoughts from a guy with a steep lot, a heavy trailer and used to have a BX:

1) the draw bar (if you can call it that) on a BX is so low to the ground that it is really only suitable for garden carts and such. I don't think you can retract the "landing gear" on your trailer tongue low enough to engage a ball on a BX hitch.

2) Chief's homemade 3 point hitch, a Flexpoint (>>>>) or a Bad River unit is a better option.

3) Jack knife a 1800# trailer with this class of tractor on downhill turns? Yup. Done that. Scary? Yup. Good thing I was going slow. But this brings up the best of all options.

It is a little harder to engineer with a BX due to the hydraulic attach points...... but I can assure you that if you put 500 pounds of ballast on the 3 point and rig up a secure hitch on the FEL that your tractor (in 4wd) will become the trailer boss and not vice-versa.

The key element is not just the added weight/traction on the rear but the real advantage comes from the fact that the front wheels are always turning to counter-act the "jack-knife" thrust vectors of the heavy trailer.

How well does it work? An 1800# trailer, towed from the rear of my 4115, is not manageable on the sweeping down hill turns of my gravel road. Yet I routinely take my 4000# 5th wheel trailer over the same route, towed from the front end with big ballast on the rear, and there is nary a slip or bobble.

Last time I towed the 5th wheel to its parking spot, I found out afterward that I had forgotten to engage the 4wd and yet I didn't notice any difference in traction. Please note that I would have been in trouble if I had needed to brake suddenly with out the 4wd engeged..... if you can call anything sudden at 1/2 MPH.
....

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beagle
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2004-04-14          83072

Just want to point out a few important points:

Weight of a JD 4410 Approx 2850lbs
Weight of a BX 2230 Approx 1300lbs

Using a 3-point trailer attachment moves the tongue weight about 18" behind the drawbar, and above the axles depending on how high you set the three point. Both offsets cause an overturning moment about center of the rear axle, and are additive. Net rear axle torque is again added to the overturning moment from the hitch, all reducing control of the load at the front of the tractor. Moving the tongue load back will increase traction at the rear axle.

I also have a home fabricated 3-point trailer attachment for my 7800 and love it, but also notice a significant difference in the handling of the tractor when I use it. For heavy towed loads, I use the drawbar. When using the 3-point attachment, I attempt to keep it as low as possible. I'm confident you will find that Kubota recommends towing only from the drawbar. They probably have a reason for this.

Moving heavy loads with a properly ballasted FEL sounds like a solution derived from experience, especially if done with the trailer in front of the tractor. This would give good control of the load.

The solution to your particular situation will be best derived by considering all the comments you can collect, and carefully planning your approach. Every situation is a little different. Safety first, makes enjoying possible.
....

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Murf
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2004-04-14          83082

Beagle, you are correct, but so is DRankin.

The subject of this discussion was the potential of moving a 1,700# trailer. Given standard trailer design it should have a tongue weight of 10% or 170#, hardly enough to cause a torque induced end-over. If you further consider that this machine is equipped with a FEL which could very easily be ballasted (scoop of dirt or something) then the stability becomes even less of an issue.

As has been mentioned by several, yourself included, it appears BigJim is better off to manuever his trailer by the FEL instead of the rear end.

Safety first, last & always.

Best of luck. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-14          83097

Absolutely. I've been more concerned about the 650lb(+) towing load, and the effect on the handling of the tractor and the induced toque if the 3-point is raised. The torque over comes from the mental picture of my neighbor under his torqued over 8N, hooked up to a three point towing attachment. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-14          83102

I should point out that as with many other things if taken too far or beyond the intended design use; bad things can happen. In my mind this 3 pt. trailer hitch when used on large full size trailers; it should be used under very slow, reasonably level, and good traction circumstances. The tongue weight should be such than at least 8% - 12% of the trailer's full weight rests on the hitch. Yes I use mine to move the 26' Sea Ray and trailer in my pics but do so with the utmost of caution and stay on the cement in my drive way. If I took it down the gravel hill of my drive; I full well would expect the laws of physicals to take over. A 4,000lb. tractor towing a 9,000 lb. boat and trailer under these circumstances most likely would not end with good results. Just be aware of your tractor's weight and the trailer's weight and use caution and common sense. Take is slow and easy. VERY important SAFETY point here.........ALWAYS use a limiter chain or cable to prevent the 3pt. trailer hitch from riding up to the full up position in the event of a weight shift. I have an example of one in my pictures. This is VERY important. If you keep the proper amount of tongue weight on the hitch, this should not be an issue. ....

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BigJimB
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Posts: 47 Lancaster, Pa
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2004-04-14          83104

Thanks for all of the good comments, I think I will try to get a 3 point hitch for moving my lighter trailers or just moving a trailer enough on the flat to mow around & under it. Until I use the tractor a lot and feel comfortable with it, I will use the truck on the hill as I have in the past.
I like the idea of using the loader with a ball, as I get older it is getting harder to turn enough plus the bi-focals to see where the trailer is going behind me when I back into a tight spot. Having it in front would make that a lot easier. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-14          83105

Beagle
When you use the loader to move a heavy trailer
going down the hill do you back the trailer or the tractor?
Also going up the hill which is backing up the trailer or the tractor? ....

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beagle
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2004-04-14          83106

Your best control of the load will be with the trailer pulling against the tractor, instead of pushing. Back the tractor up the slope pulling the trailer. Back the trailer down the slope with the load in front of the tractor. This way you never have the weight of the trailer pushing on the tractor causing control problems. On level ground, you don't have much of an issue as long as you take it slow. The momentum of the trailer as you try to stop will be when you notice the load. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-14          83107

Hey bigjim, for future reference, if you are towing on a slope, the formula for approximating the towed load is pretty simple:

Load=(coef. of fric. x weight)+(rise/run x weight).

For coefficient of rolling friction, on the best surface it is about .05. Adjust from there based on judgement of the ground conditions. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-14          83109

I like the equation, how much do you change the coeffiecnt of friction if you go to gravel or hard grass surface. I assume the .05 is for a paved area?
I know it will not be exact but I would have no idea how much to adjust for either ....

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Chief
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2004-04-14          83111

IF you choose to use the FEL to move a trailer down hill. (and I strongly advise against it) You need to be sure you have some SERIOUS rear axle counter weight to ensure traction or risk being dragged down the hill by the trailer. A FEL creates a tremendous cg shift in weight to the front axle of the tractor; especially on a hill. If you want have the trailer in a postion to be pulling against the tractor going down hill then I suggest you hook the trailer to the 3 pt. trailer hitch and back the trailer down the hill. I have taken the uncontrolled slide to the bottom of a hill enough times to not want to do it again and avoid the circumstances. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-14          83119

Well, here is what we use for heavy rigging calculations, but these are based on experience and not necessarily text book numbers:

pnuematic tires on gravel .15 - .25
pnuematic tires on sandy soil .25 - .4
pnuematic tires on soft soils .35 - .5

None of these calculations take into account inertial load, and increases for settled conditions from storage. This could add another 25%. Always figure a factor of safety with any calculations. ....

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BigJimB
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2004-04-14          83136

Thanks Beagle and Chief for the advice
Until I use the tractor a lot more and get to know what it will and will not do, I think I will continue to use the truck to move the big trailer on the hills. ....

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TomG
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2004-04-15          83167

I'd also keep in mind that tractors are much better at pulling than stopping. I told my neighbour's story here sometime back about his friend trying to use a 2wd utility to move an 80' mobile along a gravel drive with maybe a 3% grade. The mobile pushed the tractor down the slope and across the highway where the hitch broke and they blocked the highway for awhile. Adding big ballast to increase traction and balance also increases stopping distance. A curve at the bottom of a hill could equal big trouble.

The general comments in this thread seem to be awareness of the issues and using a lot of caution, which seems to make pretty good sense. There are some jobs like the 80' mobile that just shouldn't be tried though.

....

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Murf
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2004-04-15          83183

Our tractors are equipped with electric brake controllers and our hydraulic dump carts have electric brakes on all 4 wheels also.

It sure makes stopping a load of material a lot less stressful.

Best of luck. ....

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One wheeler
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2004-04-15          83247

Is this a new tractor? if so break it in first. make sure it is up to operating RPM because it keeps the Tranny fluid cool. Use low range when mowing/ETC uphill or let up on the pedal a bit it is not an accelerator its an infinate gear selector pedal. Everybody thats driven my grand L said "I pushed on the pedal and it seams like it bogged a little going up hill in high range". After it was explained to them to chill out on the HST pedal it worked just fine... also it has more power now that its broken in. ....

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