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schragsj
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27 Central Kansas
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2003-10-26          67125

Can someone please give me the torque spec for the flywheel bolts on an L225DT? Thanks.

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TomG
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2003-10-27          67172

Sorry I can't help directly. Maybe somebody has a repair manual or maybe a dealer'd be good for one answer.

I did some looking in my Ford repair and parts manuals. There are specific specs for flywheel bolts. Unfortunately my parts manual doesn't say what size bolts are used so I can't check to see if the flywheel specs are the same as specs in a general table by bolt size. However, since separate specs are given, I wouldn't trust torques given in a general table. ....

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Art White
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2003-10-27          67174

That one is a one two click on the elbow. We don't have the books for the older Kubota's but normally on the flywheel I would do a torque by the size of the bolt in generic terms tighten it for about all the size will take and have it coated with locktite. Mast manuals have a torque chart as the max that is to be used on the bolt by size. ....

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Art White
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2003-10-27          67175

That one is a one two click on the elbow. We don't have the books for the older Kubota's but normally on the flywheel I would do a torque by the size of the bolt in generic terms tighten it for about all the size will take and have it coated with locktite. Mast manuals have a torque chart as the max that is to be used on the bolt by size. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-27          67186

Thanks for the replies. I was a little nervous to use the standard torque for the size because the bolts have a turned down diameter just below the head. This necked down shank is smaller than the minor diameter of the threads. There are locking plates under the heads to mechanically lock the bolts once tight. Would you still use loctite? Thanks for your opinions. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-27          67187

I recently sold my L245 parts & shop manuals but if you can give me the size and grade bolt. I can look up the recommended torque on a torque chart for you. Might not be a bad idea to look at applying some thread lock as well. (Locktite Red) ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-27          67200

I'll have to look at the bolts again but I don't remember any grade markings on the head. It seems like they had an "M" in the center. I believe they are 12mm bolts (19mm heads) but as I mentioned before they aren't a standard bolt. I'll look tonight and give you more details. I may even try to post a picture if I'm feeling adventurous. I would like to find shop manuals for this tractor. Any suggestions? Again, thanks for your help. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-27          67204

Try calling up Ronnie over on Tractor Smart. He was VERY helpful with questions on my L245. I bet he can get you the info. you are looking for or put you in touch with someone who does.

Please ask for Ronnie Bowman or Todd Miller.

Phone 423-928-0261

Fax 423-928-5791

Modern Equipment Company, Inc.
3003 West Market St.
Johnson City, TN 37604

....


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TomG
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2003-10-28          67311

Just a couple of random thoughts here. The first is that some types of lock-tight have to be heated to release parts. Probably not an issue but I'd make sure that parts like seals are far enough away that heat could be applied to the bolts without injuring anything that's not metal.

I got factory manuals for my Ford through my NH dealer. They still exist but several month backorders can happen if the publisher is out of stock. My orders didn't take too long and I found the factory manuals much better than after-market ones. They were pricey and the parts manuals included many models but the wait was worth it since I didn't have an immediate problem.

The metric hardware coding for my Ford used a code starting with a 'T' to indicate grade. The general torque table gives the same torque for all grades with the same bolt size and thread. I believe I've seen bolts stamped with 'M' before but I have no information about them. It's good to check this kind of thing out but a good perspective that it isn't quite rocket science. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-28          67353

Thanks for all the opinions. I realize it isn't rocket science and I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it except for the unusual bolt. It doesn't look like someone's first attempt at bolting the flywheel to the crank. It looks like a response to a problem so I'm guessing there's been more than a casual thought to the proper torque. I was wrong about the head markings - there are none. The bolt has a turning center like they were produced in low volume on a lathe. If anyone wants to see it I can email a picture, it's not clear to me how to post an image here. I have a manual on order, I may just hold up on re-assembly till it gets here unless someone can find a value. It is an M12 x 1.25 bolt which isn't in the standards book where I work. Our standards for an M12 x 1 are 77 ft-lbs for a class 8.8 and 105 ft-lbs for a class 10.9. Can someone tell me what a Kubota manual says? Thanks.

TomG brings up a good point about loctite. The red variety does require heat to remove and the rear crank seal rides on the same chunk of metal these bolts thread into. It doesn't seem like you'd want to use anything stronger than blue. I didn't see any sign of a threadlocker on the bolts.

Can anyone tell me why the clutch housing is sealed? Every other dry clutch I've seen has a hole in the bottom of the housing, usually with a cotter pin in it to keep it from plugging. This unit had a transmission input shaft leak and there was about 1/2 quart of fluid in the clutch housing. There is a plug in the bottom of the housing and it seems to me it should be left out so you know if there is a leak instead of making a wet clutch out of a dry one. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-29          67408

I was wrong about my Ford manual torque tables. Separate torque by grade is given but they don't separate by bolt length. An M12 course goes from a low-end 27.5 ft. lbs. for a 4T to a high end of 85.4 for a 10T--quite a range and especially when the grade isn't known. Given that range it probably makes sense to sort out the torque in absence of Art's techs who probably have calibrated elbows from years of experience.

Finding the speced torque likely is the easiest thing to do but here are a couple of ideas for sorting out the bolt. If it is a special bolt, then it probably has it's own part number. If it doesn't have a part number then it's likely in an OEM catalogue somewhere and a dealer's hardware salesman might be able to identify it--still wouldn't answer the torque question though. I'm thinking about flywheel/crank flange connections and I can't think of an over-tightening issue such as compressing a seal. An OEM manufacturer might spec a max torque and that might be a safe value for the application. Too many 'mights' here I think. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-29          67413

Sorry if I confused the issue. The second number in the bolt designation is the thread pitch in millimeters, not bolt length. We're used to thinking in terms of threads per inch - the metric designation is millimeters per thread. At least that's the way I understand it.
I don't think there are any overtightening issues either, other than breaking the bolt which is my main concern with the turned down shank. I'm guessing the reason for the reduced shank is to provide a relief for cutting the threads. They appear to be machined in rather than rolled as a typical bolt would be. I don't know why they would go to the trouble of making their own bolt unless it is a higher spec than is comercially available.
I'm sure I'm blowing it all out of proportion but now it's become a mission. I'm going to try calling the gentlemen at Modern Equipment as Chief suggested. I could just wait for the manual to come but this weekend is supposed to be cold and wet - perfect for spending in the shop. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-29          67431

I called Ronnie at Modern Equipment as Chief suggested and he was very helpful. If anyone here does business with them, please pass on my appreciation. His book called for 43.4 - 47.0 ft-lbs lubricated. It called it a 10mm bolt. These are 12mm but the turned down area on the shank is 10mm so I'm going to go with it. 45 ft-lbs is fairly low for a 12mm bolt but torque charts are based on dry threads and lubricating them changes things drastically. I won't use loctite since that would require dry threads and there are locking plates under the heads.
Thank you all for your help. If the flywheel comes off, you'll be the first to know. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-29          67433

Glad to here that Ronnie was able to help you out. Ronnie is great folks and they are very strong in the customer support area. They have VERY good prices on there parts too! Good luck with the reassembly and repairs. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-30          67512

My own confusion really. I'm just used to threads per inch in tables and on gauges. The pitch columns in tables were there but not useful to me but I still should have recognized them as pitches.

Calling it a 10mm bolt does answer a question that I wondered about--whether max torque specs protects the threads, shaft or both. So I guess I have my answer. I'm thinking that the design is intended to keep thrust off the bolt shoulders, which seems like a good idea. The flywheel probably is keyed onto the crank. I don't imagine the bolt head pressures are intended to take the rotational load. If the crank has thrust washers or a loose key I might replace them on principal as long as time and cost didn't' get in the way--and the pilot bearing as well.
....

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schragsj
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2003-10-30          67548

Interestingly enough, the flywheel is not keyed to the crank. The crank has a disk about 4" in dia that the flywheel pilots on but all the torque is transmitted by the bolts. The reduced shank area of the bolt is contained completely in the flywheel. The interface of the crank disk and the flywheel is over the threaded portion of the bolt. So if the bolts were to fail, they would shear through the threaded portion. Curious design.

Since the flywheel isn't keyed, I at first assumed it's orientation didn't matter. Then I noticed large holes drilled in the flywheel that I thought were just to balance the flywheel itself. Both flywheels (off the old engine and the new engine) had these identical holes and I thought it too coincidental that they would require exactly the same balancing holes and figured they needed to be oriented correctly to balance the engine. Then I saw timing marks on the O.D. of the flywheel that can be viewed through an access hole in the flywheel housing. I started looking for clues as to how they should be oriented because both flywheels were removed at this point. The new engine had an "X" stamped on the crank disk that lined up with a small hole in the flywheel. The old engine had no marks. I had to mount the old flywheel on the new engine because the clutch mounting holes weren't right on the new one. I mounted the new one first and made note of the timing marks, then mounted up the old one the same way. By this point I was really wishing my manual was here. Hopefully I got it all right and it doesn't shake itself to death.

Anyway, the engine is mounted again and I hope to have it running this weekend and I hope we never have to re-open this chapter on flywheel bolts.

Thank you all for your help! ....

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Chief
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2003-10-30          67549

schragsj, I would strongly recommend that you wait and verify POSITIVELY in the manual or call Ronnie again before final assembling this engine and or firing it up. You may have it set up right but it could be a VERY expensive mistake if not. Best to take your time and verify you are correct and do the job once and right the first time. Good luck with it! ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-30          67553

Reason for smaller body diameter...
When the sharp V threads end on a fastener, there is a discontinuity that concentrates the stress and can cause fastener breakage at that transition at the end of the threads. You can make a bolt, stud, or other threaded part more resistant to fatigue stress by cutting the body of the fastener to a size below the mininmum diamater of the bottom of the thread V. The ultimate strength of the fastener will not be as high, but the ability to resist fatigue stress and breakage goes way up. This is good engineering practice on critical bolts in an engine.

This is not so important on a regular bolt because the threads are rolled into a steel blank rather than being cut as with a tapping die. When I thread parts on a lathe, I always provide an undercut area at the rear of the thread that is equal to the minimum diamater at the bottom of the V threads. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-30          67560

AC5Z0, you are absolutely correct but fatigue considerations apply to cyclic loading conditions. I would think the single most important factor in this application would be clamp load and the reduced shank doesn't help there. My biggest problem with the design is that the shear load is in the threads, not the shank. I think the sole purpose of the reduced shank in this case was to provide relief for tool runout in the threading operation. It may also provide for additional bolt stretch to better maintain clamp load. We put spacers under bolts that would otherwise be too short to develop adequate stretch.

Wow - we've about analyzed this to death! I doubt this much thought was put into the original design. I love hearing other people's insight - keep it coming! ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-30          67566

If the flywheel is not pinned or keyed to the crankshaft, then the bolts are cyclicly loaded with every power stroke.

My racing engines have eight dowel pins securing the flywheel from rotating against the crank, but sometimes even those eight dowel pins get elongated due to the variable torque (and maybe because of trying to squeeze an extra couple HP out of them). The heads on the aircooled engines are held on with studs that are reduced in the center for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. They are subjected to a lot of cyclic loading because they hold a sandwich of aluminum parts together with a steel rod. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-30          67578

The bolts would only experience cyclic loading if the clamp force was not adequate to transmit the torque. That's why developing adequate clamping force is so important. If the clamp force isn't adequate, there would be a cyclic shear load going through the threaded portion of the bolt at the flywheel/crank interface. Any stress risers at the thread ends would not see this load.

Head bolts, as you mentioned, do see extreme axial cyclic loads and it is critical that there are no stress risers at the thread root. The infamous flywheel bolts don't see an axial cyclic load.

I hope you take this as it's intended - good natured mental sparring. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-30          67581

No problem on this end. There is plenty of room for interpretation here since the designer does not seem to be involved in the discussion. I understand what you are saying. You certainly have a point. There was a question about why you would reduce the body of the bolt and I provided one possible answer to that question. There are other possibilities but we are all speculating based on experience.

I don't think that I would design a flywheel attachment where the shear plane was through V threaded part of the fasteners. There are so many problems with that including high stress risers at the point of shear, high compressive forces where the thread contact the ID of the hole, combined shear and tension stresses, and the possibility of fatigue and mating surface fretting if it moves.

I would have to run some numbers to estimate the clamp force and whether friction alone would be adequate for the job. With experience in engineering I have come to learn that nothing is rigid and that everything flexes to some degree. It has always amazed me that we can wallow out eight interference fit dowel pin holes on our racing engine flywheels that are held on with a single 1" fine threaded heat treated bolt that is tightened so tight that you can almost see moisture pressed out of the steel. ;-) We use a special tool that has a pinion that drives against the ring gear to tighten these bolts and to amplify the torque. If you run the simple calculations, the attachment is more than adequate.

I guess that the bottom line here is that the problem with the tractor was not with the flywheel attachment, so whatever mode it assumes in operation it seems to work. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-30          67596

One thing we totally agree on is that the shear plane shouldn't pass through the threads. And you're right, whatever is going on in that bolted joint, it wasn't a problem. I just wanted to get it back together right so it wouldn't become a problem.

I'm curious about your race engine flywheel mount. Where is the single mounting bolt? Maybe if there were more mounting bolts you could get all that moisture out ;-)

There were two other general design issues I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on. First, the clutch housing is totally sealed. Anything leaking in from the engine or transmission accumulates in the clutch housing ruining the clutch instead of dripping on the ground and alerting you to a problem. There is a plug in the bottom of the clutch housing and I plan on leaving it out. What do you think? Second, the pilot bearing was shielded, not sealed. I figured someone replaced it with the wrong bearing but both engines had exactly the same thing. I replaced it because it felt like it was installed by driving on the inner race. I replaced it with a sealed bearing for better lube retention/contaminant rejection and didn't think seal drag would be an issue at 3000 RPM. Your thoughts? ....

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TomG
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2003-10-31          67609

Hey, this turned into a very fine thread at least from my perspective. It might even give me motivation to see what gears and cutters my father-in-law has for his old South Bend lathe and fool around a bit.

I noticed in my parts manual that the smaller Fords in the '10-series have flywheel mounts similar to what is described here. Slightly larger models add a loose key, although I can't be certain from the parts diagrams that the keys take rotational load. Larger models such as my 1710 are keyed and mount with a single nut on the crank that is torqued to 245 ft. lbs. and also adds thrust washers. Bunch of torque on those nuts and I probably should take up weight lifting before any tear-down.

We never did address the bell-housing question. I'm guessing that the housings are sealed because tractors may drive through water crossings. Water up to the axles also is a good way to get water into the hydraulic oil if the axle seals aren't intact. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-31          67631

I am not completely sure if the question about the single mounting bolt was serious since there was a smiley face near there, but it is where you would expect...dead center in the crankshaft and the eight dowel pins are arranged in an assymentric arrangement around the bolt. That way you can only put the flywheel on one way with a balanced engine.

I do not know of any good reason to seal the clutch housing. Even a small amount of fluid in there is problematic as you have said, so I would leave the plug out. Because of the dust generated by clutch wear, there isn't really any good intermediate solution between open and closed.

The only advantage of shielded bearings over sealed is that they have less friction. I prefer sealed bearings for any type of dirty or wet environment and I think that a clutch housing is a perfect application for a sealed bearing. The additional torque lost to friction is on the order of a few inch pounds on even large bearings. When compared to the torque out of a tractor engine, it is a low percentage of loss. As the seal wears out, the torque goes down, and the bearing becomes more like the shielded bearing. I think you made a good choice.

Tom, the torque required on a single bolt or nut on a flywheel is hard for anyone to properly apply. Some people use impact wrenches, but I think that is a mistake. It is even difficult to hold the engine when applying that much torque. I have a block that I have machined two gear teeth into and it bolts onto the engines to engage and lock the flywheel. There is a second tool that I built that has a 3/4 square pin to mate with a large socket. This tool has a lever with a hole that allows me to install a pinion that engages OD of the ring gear on the flywheel. So, this is a torque multiplier. The pinion is driven with a torque wrench and the torque is multiplied 10X or so. It is not hard to do 300 ft pound torques with this arrangement. Most of the torque is confined between the flywheel and crankshaft, so it is also not difficult to keep the engine from turning with this little device.

For those that are interested, there are a lot of options that you can specify on bearings. The bearings that you get at the automotive supply have all of those preselected, but when you order special bearings from the manufacturer, you can specify tolerances, runout, seals, lubricant, shielding, and a number of other parameters to meet your needs. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-31          67643

I was actually curious about the single mount bolt location. I assumed it was in the center but couldn't picture how that works with the transmission input shaft pilot. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-31          67647

The engines are upgraded VW and Porsche style engines and use a beefed up version of their designs. There are lots of aftermarket racing and special parts used. For example, a standard VW 4 cylinder engine runs about 1600 cc and when we are done with them they run 2108 cc and produce a lot more torque and HP. Some are carbureted and some are injected.

I will have to look at the pilot bearing. I don't recall how that is implemented...exactly. ....

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web321
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2003-10-31          67662

80 foot lbs ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-31          67663

Where does that come from? (80 ft-lbs) ....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-31          67667

Maybe web321 is answering the original question in this thread, which was asking what the torque specs for the flywheel bolts on an L225DT were. Not sure where he got the number though. ....

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schragsj
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2003-10-31          67682

Sorry, that's what I meant. Where does the number come from? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-31          67683

Sorry, I see where you were coming from now. After all the engineering discussions the 80 ft lb post seemed like a non sequitur. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-01          67700

I can sure see that in a design that depends on bolt head clamping force to keep the flywheel from moving around the difference between 45 and 80 lbs. torque would make you sit up and notice. It'd be good if Web is around to hear of a source for the spec.


I looked in my Ford manuals. 1510's and 1310's (22 and 19 engine hp) seem to be similar designs. Six bolts into the crank flange. I couldn't see any loose keys or cut keyways but I'm not certain. They are speced at 43 to 50 lbs. and change. The bolts also have their own part numbers so they may be special bolts as well.

I was wondering how I'd keep the flywheel from turning with my 245-lbs. torque flywheel nut if I ever had to remove it. Bracing something against the block doesn't seem like a good idea. Those gadgets sound very useful. ....

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web321
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2003-11-01          67709

80 ft lbs comes from tractor smart.com under tech info. ....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-01          67715

I checked the flywheel to crankshaft connection in my engines and it does have the bearing inside of the center of the bolt. The guys that work on this regularly call this part a gland nut, but it has a hex head and a male threaded part projecting away from the center of the hex head. I think that I would characterize it as a bolt, but I need to use the same terminology as the regular mechanics.

Tom, we used to use pipes to multiply the torque by extending the reach on a breaker bar. When we got a bar four or five feet long, we could only do this work outside of the race vehicle because the tool was just too big. In addition, the problem at that time changed to the problem of holding the engine block or even the bench that we attached the engine block to. 250 - 300 ft lb is a lot of torque. I also remember overloading and breaking more than one 1/2 inch breaker bars which are really designed for about half that torque.

If you want to make one of these, the pinion gear is the pinion off of an old starter motor. We put a connection on our tool for a 3/4 socket, but you could set the tool up with a cheap socket welded right to the torque arm. The shaft for the pinion has an extension for a 3/8 drive socket welded to it and a 3/8 torque wrench is used to apply the torque to the pinion. ....

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FLYWHEEL BOLT TORQUE

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-01          67749

Second time today I've been to tractorsmart. Looks to be an interesting site. Whether or not it's the same engine speced on the site, thanks to Web for the heads up. Sure does bear checking out. I'm not sure if the phone call to Tractor Smart and the site are the same company. ....

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FLYWHEEL BOLT TORQUE

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schragsj
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27 Central Kansas
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2003-11-01          67769

Web, I see where you got the 80 ft-lbs and it does list the correct engine. Just so I can sleep at night I'm going to say 45 ft-lbs lubricated is the same as 80 ft-lbs dry. I don't plan on tearing it back apart to re-torque. It sure was good to hear it run today. The engine I've been referring to as "new" is near zero-hour but it's been sitting around in the garage since 1983. After a little bleeding it lit right off. It seemed to be smooth enough and as far as I know the flywheel is still on! ....

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FLYWHEEL BOLT TORQUE

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-02          67782

Good that it's running well. Funny how complicated specs tables can get and I'm sure we've over-thrashed the subject. Bunch of good engineering ideas.

I noticed in my Ford owner's manual that the specs table for general fasteners has a note. 'Values are for dry threads or threads lubricated with engine oil but not for special or high-pressure lubricants.' The Repair manual table doesn't have that note.

I wipe almost everything with grease that likely qualifies as high pressure before reassembling so at least I wouldn't lose sleep and if I did, I'd just think that these aren't general fasteners anyway. The note carried on to say that 'thick nuts must be used with grade-8 bolts. Don't know how many times I've fished around in the spare hardware box and grabbed any nut that fits. Maybe there should be some lost sleep for me.
....

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