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 | ejkessler
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 95 Northern CT 
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2003-09-02 63098
I just bought a bx22 last week and have been breaking it in. I have a little under 8 hours on it and when I checked it today noticed that the trans. stick is just at the bottom line indicating it needs more. First question is how much does that roughly represent and can I buy a quality none Kubota fluid without having to comprimise the tranny? (The dealer is a one hour drive each way and this is my first new tractor and didn't think to ask for fluids when it was being delivered). Second, I have noticed a couple of inches of free play in the fel piston that allows the bucket to pivot a few inches when operating and wondered if this was normal?
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| Glenn-D
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 54 Westmont, Illinois, summer home in Mountain Home Ar.
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2003-09-02 63100
Congratulation on owning a fine machine. If your dealer is close by tell them its lowand I would think they would give you a quart of Super UDT trans fluid to top it off. I assume there are no puddles or leaks. Chances are the hydraulic system did not get completely purged ath the dealer and after running it for a while you managed to chase out any air pockets. Remember Kubota specifies SUPER UDT for the hydraulic oil. As far a free-play in the bucket, my BX-22 has it too. Seemed kinda normal and I got used to it. Glenn ....
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| Glenn-D
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 54 Westmont, Illinois, summer home in Mountain Home Ar.
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2003-09-02 63102
oops, if the hydraulic cylinder is acting like s shock absorber you probably still have air trapped in the system. A trip back to the dealer or a call to have them send someone out to purge it and top off the fluid is probably what you need. I have a couple inches play in my bucket but its in the joints, not the cylinder. Glenn ....
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| ejkessler
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 95 Northern CT
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2003-09-02 63104
Thanks for the reply. I thought that maybe it is a little low on fluid as you said and was planning on filling it tommorrow. Hopefully the piston play will go away, if not I'll take your advice and utilize the dealer. Eric ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2003-09-03 63115
Do you have the four way valve or the three way? I would think that the air should be out of the system by now put depending on what type of movement you have it might just be from the system. To top off your oil with a quality hydraulic oil should not hurt. Over the long haul you should try to keep good oil in your equipment. Some people don't and do well but they also may trade every couple years so to them they are fine but beware the next owner who might figure it is there last tractor! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-03 63117
Tractor hydraulic oil can be purchased from box stores and all sorts of places nowadays and most of it is fairly universal. I have a long run to my dealer as well and I mix and match oils. You might check with the dealer to ensure that mixing and matching is acceptable and won't compromise the warranty.
Most times air in open centered tractor hydraulic systems is just pushed on through to the reservoir where it bubbles out of the oil before it is pumped again. Some times cycling cylinders is needed. Cycling is just moving a cylinder each way to the limits of its travel and holding the valve open for a few seconds. You should hear a pressure relief valve open, which is a good sound to recognize. You might describe the cylinder free-travel to your dealer. I'm guessing that it's normal.
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-03 63129
That sounds a little too floppy to me. I would second Tom's advise about cycling the loader to it's limits.
Two things: 1) If memory serves, your system holds about 4 gallons so topping it off with a quart or two of Wally World tractor fluid will do it no harm. Just read the bottle and make sure what ever you find says tractor hydraulic fluid on the label and it cross references with Kubota UDT. Walmart fluid meets the criteria and there are similar fluids in all major auto parts stores.
2) Make sure your loader got lubed. I have seen several go out that never got any grease on the loader bushings. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-03 63132
Cavation is a VERY common problem with the hydraulics on small loaders.
Most owners aren't even aware of the problem. It is caused when a cylinder is forced to move by aforce exerted against it rather than the hydraulics itself. The result is that the hydraulics can't supply fluid to the back-side of the cylinder as fast as the weight is forcing it out of the front-side, the vacuum created on the back-side cause air to pass through the hydraulic cylinder from the reservoir since it can move easier than the fluid can.
The solution is a very simple & inexpensive modification to the hydraulic circuit. Basically a device is fitted in-line with the offending circuit which restricts fluid running in one direction, but does not interfere with fluid going the other way. After the addition of this device, the fluid is restricted from leaving the front-side faster than it can get to the back-side. It no longer then sucks in air.
Best of luck. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-03 63133
Murf, normally there is not a problem with these but there might be something else going on if he has the four way valve. ....
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| Glenn-D
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 54 Westmont, Illinois, summer home in Mountain Home Ar.
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2003-09-03 63135
Art, are there issues with the 4 way valve? My BX22 came with one of these and there is a hesitation when rolling the bucket forward. The hesitation is a considerable amount of time when the engine is at idle or low rpm. Its really noticeable when trying to put downward pressure by rolling the bucket open. Jotstick to the right. I don't think I will ever have a use for the 4 way and was thinking of changing it to the "standard" valve. Any thoughts? Thanks
Glenn ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-03 63137
That was my point of raising the cavitation issue, I did the restrictor modification this past weekend for a local fellow.
He has a brand new BX22 TLB that he uses for installation & maintenance of tombstones. The problem is made worse by the fact that he is constantly lifting, carrying, and lowering heavy granite blocks and cement. The air allows enough bounce that he has twice dropped something he was moving when he hit a little bump.
Best of luck. ....
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| ejkessler
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 95 Northern CT
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2003-09-03 63158
I want to say thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread and wanted to fill you in on the latest. I spoke with the dealer and he reinforced the point that using a quality fluid (doesn't have to be Kubota was fine). I put a quart(JD fluid)in and may have overfilled it slightly but ran it at half throttle for about 5 minutes and then cycled the bucket and the only travel was from the joints and not piston. I did not put it under any load to speak of but appears on initial impression to have been an issue of having worked out the air in the system. If under a work load it performs differently I'll let you know. If it does come to modifying the system in relation to the 4 way I'll try the advice earlier stated. ....
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| Glenn-D
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 54 Westmont, Illinois, summer home in Mountain Home Ar.
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2003-09-03 63159
Hi Murf,
Are there any bulletins out on that mod or is the "how to" posted anywhere? Any info or advice is always appreciated.
Glenn ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-04 63177
A factory mod would be good to know about. Loaders often have a pause after heavy load dumps and it is the cavitation issue Murf mentioned. Some valves are fitted with fast dump features that eliminate the problem. Others have anti-cavitation valves that also work. Trouble is that these are features of valve assemblies and mostly require a different valve. Some people mess around with flow restricters in the cylinder lines, so Murf's factory solution may be very interesting. The rest of us with bargain valve assemblies just increase the idle rpm when doing heavy loader work so the pause doesn't last as long.
A fast dump feature also increases dump speed at a sacrifice in power. On conventional tractor loaders dumping speed is slower than curl speed because the dump circuit is on the piston rather than the shaft side of the cylinder.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-04 63184
Glen, the roll part would be with the four way valve. It is something that according to Kubota is a characteristic of it. The BX series in general needs higher RPM to have good results with the loader. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-04 63187
The hydraulics on my BX are almost non-existent at idle speeds.
As I understand it, the difference between the 3 way and the 4 way valve is the addition of a fast dump circuit and a detent so you know where you get there. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-04 63188
Tom, are you sure you have the bucket dump thing straight, I can't remember seeing a loader that had the cylinder that way around. See my # 6 & # 7 pic.'s it shows the factory setup in question.
The only way I have seen it is with the rod connected to the bucket, and the cylinder connected to the loader boom. In that setup the curl side of the motion is the slow side, the dump is the fast side. Unfortnately this also means the bucket has more force on the dump side than the curl side too, strange. This large cavity to fill is part of the cause of the cavitation.
I agree with Marks assessment of the flow rates at idle, almost non-existant, I don't know why the don't put a idle control setup on the pumps of those little units, it would be really handy, especially for the hoe.
Best of luck. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-04 63190
Murf, I didn't know there was an idle control responsible for the slow hydraulics, I just thought it was low RPM.
Your comments on the BX backhoe are spot-on. It is a very precise, easily controllable system. It spoiled me and now I have to really learn how to feather the controls with the new B/hoe. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-04 63206
Murf: In your pics, doesn't the bucket dump when the shaft extends? I thought that puts the pressure on the piston side and the exhaust on the shaft side. It would make the dump function sronger than the curl, which I too think is strange. Strange or not, that's the way I've thought these things worked for years. Always ready to learn something though. I think cylinders on some heavy equipment face the oppostie direction or are in the middle. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-04 63207
Mark, I think you mis-understood my statement. What I was trying to say is that they SHOULD have an idle-control system, but they do NOT have it.
My big excavator is equipped with this function, but in that case it is purely functional, you don't want to leave a large engine running flat out while you wait for a truck to back up so you can fill it. In a small machine like this it is purely a nicety, releasing the controls would cause the machine to idle down so you talk over it, for example, or pick up the rev.'s automatically to match power output to the task at hand, in topsoil full power may not be necessary, in clay it would be. A simple pressure sensing solenoid is all that would be required, a drop in pressure would result in an increase in RPM's.
Tom, the reasoning for the seemingly upside-down arrangement of the cylinders may have more to do with safety than anything else. A certain size rod diameter is required for strength, but if the cylinder were turned around, it may generate more power than the rest of the design were able to safely handle and damage to the rest of the equipment might result from exceeding the design specifications.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-05 63242
Morning Murf: Seems like we were describing about the same thing. Don't know how the idea got switched around.
I'm guessing that a reason for the typical setup on tractors is that reversing the cylinders would have the cylinder moving and the shaft stationary, which would require use of hoses rather than steel line on the loader frame. Good chance that such designs wouldn't work very well in the small dimensions of a tractor compared to heavy equipment. An off the wall idea might be that if the dump circuit were the weaker then maybe a load could be curled back that couldn't be dumped, which could lead to interesting times.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-05 63252
Murf, it all goes back to dollars and cents! They could put in an idle circuit for $? That might not be a nessecity for everyone but it might drive some away as much as it might drive some to it. Kubota's method of feathering the controls makes some of the aftermarket machines operations harder. For a dollar (saved?) people will put up with them. The cylinders turned around would do many things, some might work faster,some slower, some lift more load,some less. We are looking at a new wheel to be built too! There is no one machine built that is perfect for all! ....
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