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H P verus RPM

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perplexed
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2003-01-13          47464

I've read that bigger is better when it comes to tractors. But when I talked to my Kubota dealer he stated that in order for the tractor to run at peak efficiency and for it to last longer It should be worked at around 2600 rpm. If this is the case would to much hp cause a reduction in the r's? As you can see, I'm a novice trying to learn.
thanks again, Rude
Whoops, should be versus.


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Billy
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2003-01-13          47465

perplexed,

Most implements need to be run at PTO speed. Since PTO speed is predetermined, The only thing about HP is if you have enough to keep the RPMs where they should be.

For example a brush cutter, 4ft on a 16hp tractor. You set the RPMs so the PTO runs at 540. You go through some TALL grass or heavy brush. The motor pulls down so you have to go slower so the RPMs stay up.

Same cutter on a 20hp tractor. The RPMs is set the same, to keep the PTO at 540. You go through some TALL grass or heavy brush but the tractor just chugs right along. This is where the extra HP comes in.


Billy
....

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slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-01-13          47467

Unlike automotive and small gas engines Tractor engines are designed for more torque at lower RPM's. This also translates to longer life for the engines. Check out the HP specs for your car engine vs a tractor engine.

....

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TomG
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2003-01-14          47485

It's possible to go round in circles on this torque vs HP thing, and there's a lot of reading on the subject in the archives. One thing that simplifies the idea is that HP and torque are highly related. A HP is defined as 550 ft.lbs./second. Torque usually is expressed in ft. lbs., so one can be calculated from the other and rpm (There's probably a fudge factor for multiple cylinder engines). Although the measures are opposite sides of the same coin, torque is a measure of force and HP of work. A HP rating is what a tractor is capable of not what is actually delivered in an operation. From physics, no work is done is nothing is moved.

One bang gives torque and HP. A bigger band gives more torque and HP, but more smaller bangs during the same period may give less torque but more HP. Increasing an engine's rpm increases the HP delivered provided the torque stays constant or increases. However, torque doesn't stay constant as rpm changes.

An engine has a torque curve across rpm that produces a peak HP at a certain rpm. Tractor engines, both diesel and gas, are designed so torque increases rapidly at low rpm's and then falls off, which produces peak HP at fairly low rpm's and usually right around pto rpm. Automotive engines are designed to produce higher torque at higher rpm. Therefore, a smaller engine can have a higher peak HP rating. However, the characteristics of such engines aren't too good for tractoring work. They also travel further to do the same work so they wear out faster.

Anyway, I think this is a decent set of basic ideas in a reasonable space for why the dealer would say the best life and efficiency is achieved at 2600 rpm. People here who have engineering training may add something or differ with parts of what I said.
....

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DRankin
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2003-01-14          47488

Most small diesel engines designed for tractors seem to have max rated RPM's in the 2600-2750 range.

This maximum RPM is preset and controlled by a mechanical governor. You cannot, under normal circumstances, exceed this RPM level, even if you wanted too.
These are probably the types of engines your dealer is referring to.

There are however, other small diesels that are set up to run most efficiently at 3200 (+/-) RPM. Kubota's BX series and the new Deere 2210 come to mind. These higher speed engines should be operated at that RPM level, especially during PTO operations.

My Deere 4100 spins the rear PTO AT 540 revs with 2650 engine RPM. The BX gets 540 PTO revs at 3068 engine RPM.
Hope this helps. ....

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Peters
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2003-01-14          47522

Old diesel technology produced torque at low speeds. Some of the larger engines would only turn maybe 800 rpm, red line was at 1200 rpm. In general these engines had long strokes and would fly apart at the higher rpms.
Piston speed equals wear and the older engines were designed to last as long as possible. The long strokes were needed to provide high compression, larger diameter pistions, needed for shorter strokes would not have proper breathing due to the then current valve technology.
Are the newer high rpm diesels going to last as long as the older ones? I am not sure, but I still like to see the PTO rpm nearer to 2 than to 3. I guess you can call me old school. ....

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hardwood
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2003-01-15          47578

Perplexed, believe your dealer, the new small diesels are designed to run at high RPM's. Luging them at low RPM's is much harder on them. If they still used the low RPM/ big cube theory, the engines would simply be too big and too heavy for small tractor use. Be sure to use only the grade of oil your owners manual calls for, and don't be afraid to change it a little oftener than the book says if you are using it only for short jobs that don't fully warm the engine. Oil and filters are free compared to parts. ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-17          47658

New or old, more RPM's mean more wear. There are several small or compact tractors on the market today that turn only around 1800-2200 rpms. The Kubota dealer was right but only about kubotas. Kubota engines bore is usally equal to its stroke. Or some actually have shorter strokes than the diameter of the bore. This necessitates the RPM to produce the torque and HP needed. Engines with strokes longer than the bore don't need to turn very fast to produce massive amounts of torque. In reality, looking at the HP only is an injustice to a diesel engine. You should look at the lb/ft of torque that it produces. You will be quite suprised at the wide range of torque and at what rpm the engine must turn to do it. A lot of manufacturers hide this rating but it can be found in most shop manuals. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-17          47659

Yes Torque is really what counts in a tractor engine, but is almost never published. I would like to see the ft/lbs of torque produced while the engine is running at PTO speed. This information would help me to make a better choice.
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marklugo
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2003-01-17          47661

HINT: the PTO RPM=torque peak on many tractors. ....

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Billy
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2003-01-17          47663

Mark L, in my JD 4610 owners manual it states:

Engine Torque at Rated Speed (2600 RPMs) 82 lb-ft.

Engine Torque at 1700 RPMs 95 lb-ft.

Bore is 3.3" Stroke is 3.5"

The 540 RPM PTO speed is acquired at an engine RPM of 2600. Why would they design the engine to have less torque at PTO speed? I'm just curious.

Billy ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-17          47668

It has to do a lot with some of the compact tractor companies not engineering the their tractors for performance but for comfort and looks. Larger tractors are generall engineered with the torque peak close to the PTO range for maximum utilization of power and economy. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-17          47670

Mark,
I would like to see some test results like the Nebraska Tractor test results for CUT's. It would allow us to make better informed decisions.
....

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marklugo
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2003-01-18          47707

Try: tractortestlab.unl.edu/

It lists the larger tests, but you should be able to order your make and model results. There is a book on Amazon that has the results up to a certain year. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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slowrev
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2003-01-18          47722

Mark,
I do not get anything on the tractortestlab link.
....

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Art White
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2003-01-18          47730

The question that started this thread is a good one. The answer would take about three pages plus as to the different designs types of metal used for a diesel engine design of today with the newer high speed diesels vs the older and some newer diesels that are only spinning at 2200 rpm max but build in a 50% torque rise over 500 rpm working range vs persay a 20 percent torque rise across a 1000 rpm torque band. To me there is no relationship between horsepower and RPM, it is up to the injector pump and it's settings that are set by the manufacturer that knows how his engine is built and what it is dynamically balanced for as well as the internal pressures that the engine was built to withstand. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-18          47733

Art,
By the books there is a relationship between HP and torque I suppose, but for us users TORQUE is all that matters. It is best if the torque is highest in the RPM range that we do the most work, ie PTO RPM.

Take the small engines for example. I have a friend that the old 12 HP kohler blew up on his Gravely garden tractor. He bought a new 14 HP Robin and put it on the rider. He says it sucks, he has to run 2 times the rpm to get the same job done as with the old Kohler. He is now looking to buy another old Kohler and fix it up and find a sucker to sell the Robin to.

....

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Art White
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2003-01-18          47734

Slowrev, I like books, it means people have to buy more saws to cut more trees to replace the books that have become out dated. Same as the sheet of paper that a record was written on that was just broken. My 155 horsepower snowmobile does go faster that my 175hp ford, but I can't see my sled pulling the weight of the car. Torque difference, oh ya! Older crude metals, non balanced rotating assemblies, I could go on and on here! There are units that work and some that don't. Often the higher RPM will give you a broader torque band to fit more applications. The newer engines are using better metals to handle the stress induced by torque rise. They also can with stand the higher RPM do to better tolerances from better machining. ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-18          47739

Art, a 30 hp tractor (theoretically) could be made to turn 60 or 70 HP by increasing the rpm and fuel. But it won't make much difference in the torque. HP is what operates equipment. Torque is what gets and keeps the equipment up to speed. Torque is an excellent measure of "workability" of engine. ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-18          47740

Slowrev, try the link again. I fixed it. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-18          47747

Mark, I agree with you. "Torque is what gets and keeps the equipment up to speed. Torque is an excellent measure of "workability" of engine." To me this is what matters most in a tractor or small utility engine. I have been to the test labs site, not very useful, except to buy their book. I have read at least one book by Lester Larsen. I guess they do not deal with any new tractors under 40 hp, and it reads like they are being legislated out of existance. Too bad there is not something like this for CUT's.

Art, I got a bit lost in your message...don't understand about the books...I do understand that the metals and engineering have improved in most engines manufactured today(reservations on some Chinese engines).
I still believe though that if you have to rev an engine higher to get the power/torque you need, it will not last as long, even with the new metals and engineering. The old Kohler engine my friend had on his garden tractor was 25 years old. I do not believe these newer light weight utility engines will last that long.

I guess the Gravely is on subject too as the Gravely garden tractor has a rear lift, Hydraulics and PTO and weighs about 800 lbs. (subcompact)
....

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lamarbur
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2003-01-19          47767

I have no problem with anything said above. My problem is a little different. I've owned and run Cat 1693's and 3406's both pre combustion and direct injection. Therefore I am use to a power curve somewhere around 1500rpms. A few months ago I bought a Mahindra 4110 w/FEL and Bradco 511 hoe. I complained about the FEL being excessively slow. Dealer took the machine, drilled out the restrictor plate from 18 to .035. Helps a lot. Problem, I can't seem to get use to 2600 rpm on this little 4 cyl motor. Each time I bring it up to 2600, I think it is going to scatter apart. Having a hard time accepting such a "screaming" rpm. But, the good book reads, most power for the job, use 2600 rpm. ....

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cutter
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2003-01-19          47770

A good example of how a manufacturer can manipulate figures to show more HP is with the N/H TC series. I was looking at the TC25D rated at 25HP. The 29D was carrying a rebate and was only $400 more. The engine specs were identical, except you had to run the 29 at several hundred more RPM to achieve rated HP. The dealer told me the fuel delivery had been increased and that was the only real difference between the two engines (except rated HP). They highly recommended that model for the 72" cutter so I bought it, but never did run a 25D to see if there was a noticeable difference in power. ....

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Art White
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2003-01-19          47775

I've been around enough to see the older engines with the older metal that everytime you rebuild you have an egged crankshaft and the engine only works at 2000 rpm and less and I've seen the newer diesels that turn 2700 and 2800 that at rebuild the cranks are still round and at the factory specs and at most you polish the crankshaft. Many of the newer engines are balanced to 5000 RPM where the older engines have no degree of spin balancing so of coarse they would destroy themselves if spun even to 3000 rpm. You can also increase the torque in many injection pumps as well as the fuel. The torque increase might or will cause disintergration more than the additional fuel for just a horsepower increase across a larger band and the same torque. To broaden the rpm band is an easier way to increase the horsepower with out increasing the load as to leave the torque alone just make it over a lrger area of availability. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-19          47803

Art, I can't disagree with you on the old tractor engines. They were not balanced very well at all and the crank wear was erratic at best. Engine metals and engineering has definately improved. However I do love the old iron, and they were/are torquers. I love the low RPM torque. Notice my ID? :)

I might disagree with you on smaller utility engines though. The old Cast iron long stroke Briggs and Kohlers with the heavy mass flywheels are hard to beat. The newer aluminum block/alum flywheel motors cannot hold a candle to the older iron ones.
....

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Nubian
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2003-01-20          47813

what do you consider old?
i have a 3 cyl Toyosha 18hp on my Deutz-Allis with 463 hrs,
how would you rate this engine:
bore 2.87"
stroke 3.15"
rated speed 2500rpm
high idle 2650-2700rpm
low idle 750-800rpm ....

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hardwood
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2003-01-20          47814

My first experience with small engines was with a Chevy Chevette 4 cyl. we bought new in the 80's. I said it would be a miracle if it made 50K, but to my surprise we ran it 150K, then gave it to two of the kids who drove it to college, finally at somewhere around 200K the body basicly fell off, but that little motor, with a couple new timing belts along the way still ran pretty well. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-20          47823

Nubian,
I am considering old engines as in 1960's and earlier.
....

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Art White
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2003-01-20          47828

You would love the specs on some of the newer ag engines. 2200 max rpm with a 40% plus torque curve down to about 1300 rpm. They never could get a piston to take that much torque at 2800 rpm for what I see today, but I don't consider it to far away with the newer design engines they are working with. The lower ends on many engines are far stronger than they used to be. To have worked in auto machine shop and have to turn the cranks and bore engines back in the late 60's early 70's gave me a good idea as to what works and what doesn't. Had a basics given that the old Case engines if you rebuilt you turned the crank for sure. JD was a maybe but most likely. IH was only if you spun a bearing. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-20          47829

Art, Are those specs available online anywhere ? I agree with your assesment of the Case/JD/IH farmall engines. I am helping a friend rebuild an early 70's case right now(gasser). The bottom end is ok, I think he just overheated it and collapsed the rings. Smoked (blue)a lot but the cylinders look good. Going to use a dial gauge on them in a day or so, if they checkout ok then we will just put new rings back in it.
The old Red machines are my favorites, they run forever. ....

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Art White
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2003-01-20          47833

It's in the liturature and in our text books. ....

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perplexed
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2003-01-20          47837

From perplexed (Rude)
The response was overwhelming! Thanks for the great feed back. I think I've got it now. Older tractors = bigger and slower are better. Newer tractors = bigger and faster are better. Bigger is still the common denominator. ....

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Art White
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2003-01-20          47839

It all depends on how it was built to begin with. The purpose of the original design makes the difference. ....

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TomG
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2003-01-21          47885

I wrote this response several days ago but I haven't been able to post responses. If this gets through I found my problem. I suppose the comment is a little dated now.

If you have a PTO HP spec, torque can be calculated. John Miller III gave a conversion formula in a post several years ago. Torque=(HP X 5252)/RPM. The formula gives a result in ft. lbs. Doing some algebra I come up with HP = (torque x RPM)/5252. The formula shows that HP declines when either or both torque and RPM decline.

Solving for Billy's examples I get 40.6 HP at 2600 and 30.8 at 1700. A point to be made from this is that the HP decline would be much greater at 1700 if peak torque occurred at PTO RPM. Perhaps a reason for this type design is that it would make the engine more resistant to sudden load increases.

Load increases, such as hitting heavy brush with a rotary cutter, that are larger than can be managed by the governor result in reduced RPM. If HP drops off rapidly there's a greater chance of killing the engine and less chance of a tractor 'lugging through it.' The design technique can be called 'broad-banding' the power curve.

I think older designs relied on heavy flywheels to give resistance to load increases (flywheels store energy). The trouble is that once lugged a heavy flywheel takes energy to accelerate the engine back to the original RPM and the engine's ability to recover is reduced.

This illustration is consistent with MarkL's reasoning. Tractors have to deal with sudden load increases. They need resistance to load increases as well as ability to recover. For sleek lightweight stylish tractors, designers may well place peak torque below PTO RPM. Of course, it's also true that such a design isn't going to give the best fuel economy or HP at PTO rpm.
....

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Billy
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2003-01-21          47891

Thanks Tom. I like your explanation. It actually makes sense to me.

Welcome back, my friend. I'm laughing 'at' cha (with ya)...lol

Billy ....

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