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Foghorn
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2002-11-19          45172

I currently live on a 1 acre waterfront lot and also own 12 wooded acres about 10miles away. I've never owned a tractor so I don't know what I really need. I would initially use the tractor to install about 100' of riprap and then maintain a 1/2mile dirt/gravel road; maybe even get a backhoe way down the road. I talked to the local rep and he said the B7500 could do all of this but it would just take longer than the B2710/2910. I don't mean to offend any B7500 owners but I feel as if the B7500 is just an oversized lawn mower. I also read a recent post where the 3pt hitch on the B7500 is not really a class I but a class 0. I would appreciate any advice because the B2710/2910 would be a stretch financially. If I did go with the bigger tractor I think I would probably get the B2910 over the 2710. Any comments with that would help too.

Thanks - Foghorn


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slowrev
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2002-11-19          45174

Yes what you intend to do could be a bit much for the sub-compact tractors. It would probably do the job but would take a bit longer. Also you will probably want a 60" plus box blade for the gravel drive maintenance. Do you have a Kioti dealer in your area ? If so you might want to check them out. Good tractors for thousands less.

Ben
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DRankin
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2002-11-19          45186

I think the post you read concerning the Cat. 0 hitch was about the BX series and even then, that information is not strictly correct. I was just looking at a B7500 today and it has a regulation Cat. 1 hitch.
If you take a hard look at the stats, the differences between a 7500 and a 2710 comes down to this: 6 horsepower, 6 inches of wheelbase and 400 lbs in base weight. Everything else, in my view, is too close to call, including its ability to run a backhoe. Both have nearly identical wheels and tires and Kubota rates both for the same size box scrapers and grader blades. I think the measurable performance between the two probably comes down to single digit percentage points.
Only you can decide if that if enough to justify spending several thousand bucks extra to achieve.
....

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DRankin
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2002-11-19          45187

BTW, what the heck is riprap? ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-11-19          45189

My option has always been to find a good used tractor rather than new. I bought my current tractor 2 year ago for 2K less than the current used list with loader (3K). Most of the tractors will last more hours than home uses will put on in a life time. If you can wrench a little you can fix most things on a tractor.
You also will need some method of carrying the tractor to the wood lot, you can drive it but it may take near an hour either way. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-11-20          45200

I also have two places about 10-miles apart but less land but I started with a backhoe and snow removal work. I started by fitting the tractor to the depth of trenching I needed to do. There are a bunch of issues in the archives about matching hoes to tractors. If a hoe is in the future, I'd figure the depths and reaches needed and make sure the tractor can mount a hoe needed for the work. A hoe is about the most expensive implement most people ever buy and it's good to know that the tractor is adequate for a hoe that can do the work.

The 24 pto hp 3,000 lbs. Tractor/loader I got takes a 6' hoe and that barely gets me by. It also takes a moderate 5' snow blower that almost covers the turf tire tracks. However, the drives are wider than 10' and it takes me three passes to do them. I could get by with 12' of cleared drives but the tractor wouldn't manage a 6' blower. I'd probably want a bigger tractor if the drives were longer.

The tractor does pull a 6' box blade for gravel drive maintenance and shallow excavations. On my drives, 6' slopes on the crowns puts about the right width on top so I can cut and maintain the crowns with single passes either side. A 5' blade would mean I'd have no offset from the tires for shallow ditching and I'd have to cure a 'saw-tooth' when maintaining the crowns. I'd have to have a separate blade with offset.

A bigger tractor than you're looking at works better for me. However, there is a downside. I don't really want to haul that much weight plus implements with my 1/2-ton and there are no back-roads to our camp. I had to learn to be, if not happy, then sort of relaxed, driving narrow gravel shoulders and bridges without shoulders on a highway with heavy transport traffic. The bigger tractor also is really too big for finish mowing around our trees etc. so I kept the riding mower. I did go used to get the tractor size and budget that worked of us. However, always figure on about a thousand to cure somebody else's problems. ....

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Foghorn
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-11-20          45223

Mark, riprap is stone that is used to prevent erosion. The size that I will be using will range from the size of a softball to as big as a football. That's why I don't want to get too small of a FEL. Foghorn ....

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Paul B
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2002-11-20          45225

You might consider, as I am, the new Kubota B7800. It's equipped with 30 h.p. in four cylinders. On paper, that's better than the 2710 and 2910 and cheaper. I don't know why Kubota offers so many similar choices, but this looks like a good compromise. Check it out at Carver: http://www.carverequipment.com/b2710_b7800_b2910_order_form.htm ....

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Art White
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2002-11-21          45251

You would appreciate the three range transmission for doing your excavation work. The middle range is about the best there is for that type of work. Low range is to slow with lots of power and high range is great to get from one place to the other, but mid-range is the best for digging and moving the material for any distance. ....

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charliebrowndog
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2002-11-22          45294

I'm building a house and bought a 2710 for backfill, moving material around, digging trenches etc. I bought a used Woods 7500 (half price) and purchased all the pump kit parts separately. Works great for me and I wouldn't do it any different. ....

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jeff r
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2002-11-23          45313

Art is right, I would never consider any tractor with just a 2 range H,L on its' Hydro ranging. Low range is way too slow anf High range is too fast. 2710 has a 3 range hydro transmission and a 4 cylinder diesel the 7500 and 2410 do not. ....

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Art White
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2002-11-23          45323

Jeff, I don't always go that way but it sounds like theres some good work here for the unit. It will make the difference for the work here as if it is a pleasure from a chore. But here comes another thought which is why it's tough to pick the right tractor. If there is not a lot of repeditive loder work to do than a two range will work just fine for digging occasionally. In the long run for this wall work with rip rap it would be money well spent to look at the smaller of the two and get the backhoe as it would make easy swings to place rip rap on the wall you are building and I assume you have some other work to do with one. ....

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Duane
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-11-26          45424

Foghorn, I own a B7500 hydro and feel confident that I could do everything with it that you describe you would like to do. Yes, it is a small tractor, but I think it's a more capable unit than just an oversized lawn tractor. Actually, I think Kubota sells the same 6.5' backhoe for the 7500 and the 2710 while offering a 6.5' or a 7.5' for the 2910. I am not going to argue that it might take a bit longer to do the same amount of work with a smaller tractor, that's pretty much common sense... but in my humble opinion, the b7500 gives you a pretty good bang for your buck....

On the other hand, I seriously doubt I would have ever regretted buying a bigger tractor... not that I have ever actually needed a bigger tractor, but if I had bought one I would not be sitting around wondering if I should have bought the smaller one, whereas these days I sometimes wonder If bigger might be better. The only drawback I can see in buying a bigger one is not being able to mow some of the tighter areas of the yard.

My opinion? If I could afford it, I would probably go with the 2910. It's really a nice sized tractor that's not too awful big for mowing, but yet is big enough to handle a little bit bigger implements than the 7500. And If I couldn't afford it, I'd go with the biggest size tractor I could afford and be confident that whatever size it was, it would do the job. That's my 2 cents. ....

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FZappa
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2002-11-30          45541

I own a B7500. It is no lawn mower, and is a great little tractor. I have also driven a 2910. There is not much difference really in the size of the machine. You may want to look at the L series or JD 790, New Hollands version, just to try a bigger chassis tractor. The smaller frame compacts can really beat you up in the field. ....

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Winterbound
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2002-12-07          45844

I too am looking fo a compact and I am considering the B7500 and the Case DX29 and D25. I am going to do some loader work to dig out and area for concrete pavers. The question for me is, will I regret the smaller B7500 when performing loader work. The smaller size is more appealing to me as I will be using this on a wood lot and I feel it will be more handy. With almost 1000lbs difference in the two, will the 7500 break heavy clay ground efficently? ....

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DRankin
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2002-12-07          45856

W/B, Help us out. Break clay ground with what? a rototiller? ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-08          45860

I'm a fan of the idea of sizing a tractor to the on-going work rather than the initial reason for getting one. The initial reason often is trying to chop the handwork for a big project down to size and that may result in a tractor that's over-sized for most work over the next few decades.

Having said that, I'm not sure what work there is in the wood lot, but I usually think that wood lots and good-sized tractors go together. Even skidding firewood sized logs on rough ground can use some weight. Of course, big tractors need trails to get through bush and smaller ones may not. Given my work, which doesn't include finish mowing 'cause that's done by a riding mower, I'd probably go for bigger. Well, that's easy for me to say because with our bush you'd need trails to get a bicycle through.

I've never thought that loaders are great for digging no matter what size of tractor. Controlling the blade angle by riding the bucket valve is the technique but the angle is pretty critical. Too much cut and the loader frame jack-knives and leaves a big gouge on the trench floor. I've heard that people who fit their loaders with toothbars have much better luck.

I do virtually all shallow excavation work with a box scraper if for no other reason than I don't have to back all the way out of a trench to dump it every time the bucket fills up. The scarifiers (or a toothbar) probably would be needed for the initial cuts on compacted clay or turf. The box gives me a straight-sided even-bottomed trench as straight as I can steer. I'm guessing that the paver idea is about a 6" excavation allowing for the pavers and aggregate.
....

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Winterbound
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2002-12-08          45876

Hi TomG,

Thanks for the info on the box scraper idea. When I mentioned breaking clay ground, I was thinking in terms of the loader. The two tractors I am looking at are 1000lbs different. This means not only the decrease in loader capacity, but dosn't it loose the ability to break heavier ground with the loader?

I agree with the wood lot and bigger tractor, but this is only 4 acres. I also think you hit the nail on the head on the comment about over buying size for the initial big job. One other consideration I have is, this lot is located in northern WI. Lots of snow to push in the winter. Is the slighly larger bucket going to be worth it down the road when this becomes an every other day winter activity?

I must admit the BX7500 size is apealing, but I am more than just a little concerned about the 21hp and lighter footprint. I think the lack of weight could be of an avantage is I ever use this for mowing as the ground dosn't dry out up their until July. But the limited mowing at this ponit is better handled by my riding mower.

I sure appreciate the imput! ....

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DRankin
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2002-12-08          45882

No compact tractor made will break up hard clay with a loader. That is a job best done with a heavy box blade with sturdy scarifier teeth.

If you buy a smaller tractor you can always ballast upward for some jobs. It would be really easy to hang 1000 pounds of ballast on a B 7500 but kinda hard to make that 2910 smaller.

So far my experience is that extra horsepower really counts when you are running bigger cutters and mowers. A well-ballasted 20-horse tractor will still pull the same loads as a larger machine, just a little slower and in a lower gear. You can save many thousands of dollars if you are willing to work a little slower.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-09          45907

I wonder if we're mixing and matching engine and pto HP. It's fairly common when people refer to a tractor's HP to mean pto hp. My Ford has about 24 and would weigh about 3,500 lbs. with loader and a cutter.

True enough that I stay off the lawn when it's wet, and makes tracks if I drive the same path very many times when it's dry. I minimize sharp turns because it will tear the turf even in 2wd. I stick with a riding mower for about 2-acres of finish mowing because it's faster than the tractor would be with a 3ph mower. With the tractor there'd be a lot of trimming left after maneuvering (gently) around trees and buildings and I couldn't mow when the ground is wet.

I originally sized a tractor to what I needed for backhoe trenching. I had to trench 3' - 4' for an electrical service but you have to go 5' for well feeds around here. The tractor is about as small as I'd want to put a modest 6' hoe on. The tractor grabs my mid-sized jobs but leaves finish mowing and chores for a riding mower and a flock of small-engine toys. The big jobs are contracted out.

I figure there's always going to be jobs too big or too small to do well with any single tractor and my object is to keep it as busy as I can. It's pretty hard to get contractors to come as far from town as we are, so I wanted to minimize the contracted work and went for a mid-size compact. The decision does increase the size of my small engine flock, but the tractor is kept about as busy as it can be and I don't begrudge what we spend for contractors. I also can pick 1,500 lbs. pallets of building material off flatbed trucks if I have to so our neighbours don't mind seeing me coming to visit.

I never found that loaders are great for snow removal but that's probably another subject and one where there's plenty of reading here in the archives.
....

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jeff r
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2002-12-09          45928

Why any body would even think about putting 1000 pounds of ballast on a b7500 is beyond me. If the B series tractors have any shorcomings it has to be weight. Acoording to the lit a B 7500 weighs 1367, B2910 weighs 1763. Ballasting another 300 pounds give or take is all one should put on. When its all said and done a b7500 is still a 21 hp tractor and that stiil is on the light side. ....

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DRankin
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2002-12-09          45931

Jeff, A heavy duty 48 inch box scraper weighs 400+ pounds. What are we going to do with the extra hundred pounds?

A bucket full of wet dirt (6 cu ft) weighs 600+ pounds.

There is a thousand pounds right there in a normal operating condition.

The backhoe assembly for my BX goes nearly 700 pounds, I can't imagine the backhoe for the B7500 weighs less. So if you are doing some loader work with the backhoe on the tractor it looks like this:

Tractor 1367, FEL 400, load in the FEL 600, backhoe 700, total..... pushing 3100 pounds.

Now if I am on the tractor and I have a glass of Ice Tea in the cup holder, (not the long island version, it's too early in the day) then we have damn near 3400 pounds in operation.

So if a B 7500 is designed to do every day work tipping the scales at 3100 pounds + operator, how exactly am I going to hurt it by running it at 2400 pounds if I need extra traction to pull logs from a wood lot? ....

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jeff r
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2002-12-09          45947

Mark,

When you use the term ballasting, I take that to mean NON IMPLEMENT weight. Ballasting in my mind means wheel weights, loaded tires, front and rear weight boxes, etc. What it all boils down to is you still only have a puny 21 hp 61.1 cubic inch 3 cylinder diesel trying to move all that weight. Somewhere in the archives we talked about maximium weight per horse power?? Add a hydro transmission and ALL that weight and the 21 hp engine is being worked to death and is shortenimg its lifespan. Just give me another cylinder some more cubic inches and hp and the tractor will do just fine. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-12-10          45957

I haven't heard of maximums stated for a tractor's gross weight that would imply a limit of ballast of all forms that should be mounted on a tractor. There could be stated limits I suppose. I include implements as ballast except for 3ph implements that are working on the ground. On the other hand, I have heard stories of premature failures due to excessive ballasting.

It strikes me that if a person is faced with getting something done but can lift the rear wheels by hand then more weight to re-balance the tractor is really needed for safe operation. It should be a choice between adding weight or not doing it. For a large gray area of jobs where it's questionable whether a tractor can do a job or not, most people are going to add the weight and rightly so. A tractor is an expensive thing to have sitting around unable to tackle something that needs doing.

Lightweight tractors are an advantage rather than a liability for people who have finish mowing as the major tractor chore. A good tractor for mowing doesn't seem worth the price compared to a zero-turn dedicated mower if it couldn't be ballasted up for more traction or better balance as needed.

An idea that seems to bring Mark's and Jeff's comments together is that somebody who needs to run big ballast almost all the time to get the work done probably needs a bigger tractor.
....

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DRankin
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2002-12-10          45962

I never really thought about the exact definition of tractor ballast before, but I guess I would go along with Tom’s concept.
It has to be any weight, implement or not, that is keeping the working parts of the tractor in balance at the moment.
....

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Stan
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2002-12-10          45964

Agree w/ Tom and Mark, but I suppose there might a concern about "excess" ballast might come if someone were to hang too much on the front rack or on a rear rack. This would add to the stress on axles, along w/ the front/rear implements. Probably not able to hang enough to do damage, but maybe to reduce the "life expectancy". Wheel weights or loaded tires do not add this extra stress.

Stan ....

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Billy
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2002-12-10          45967

Alot of people wind up buying a tractor that is too light. Then they try to figure out the best way to make it weigh more. I know you need a lighter tractor for mowing the yard but , in most cases, the yard and grass can take more weight than most people think.

Billy ....

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Art White
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2002-12-10          45983

I once have abook that tells the tale about overweight tractors. The thought of overballasting and the ability to make a 10,000 hour tractor only live to about 3500 hours on the drivetrain makes me cringe. When weight is not needed the amount of fuel used to move it, as well as increased tire load often promoting the failure of the tires. Often as stated in prior posts cheaper than the weight is the next size larger tractor. The weight box for a B-series says 500lbs for a B, 300lbs for a BX. To over weight a tractor is just like an over weight human, it will cost you more money in the long run in it's later life as well as everyday it turns a tire!
....

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DRankin
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2002-12-11          46012

Art, should I be cringing when I use my BX22 to move dirt with the backhoe in place?

Is my logic flawed about the factory equipped weights being safe?

If I was working Foghorns woodlot with a B7500 or my BX, and I needed more traction to haul logs out, I would put the box scraper on, scoop up a bucket of dirt in the FEL, run a heavy strap from the drawbar over the top of the box scraper to the log, cinch it up and then use the 3 pt to raise the whole mess off the ground and drag it out.

Does this qualify as overweight, overworked or overballasted in your book? ....

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Art White
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2002-12-11          46017

Not at all Mark, That machine has extra reinforcement for that extra weight. Just because they say that on the weight box I haven't checked the owners manual to see what they say is the maximum weight of ballast that can be added. All to often we have customers that ask to over ballast a tractor for one job. That is wrong to try to match the total tractors job to only one part of it's work and sacrifice on the rest. ....

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DRankin
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2002-12-11          46022

Well, I went through all my BX books and there is no mention of ballast boxes. There is a listing for maximum implement sizes and weights but no ballast box info. It speaks to front ballast as slip-on weights and only addresses rear ballast as loaded tires and wheel weights. It does say not to lift more than 1210 pounds (!!!?) with the three point hitch. ....

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Art White
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2002-12-11          46030

Well Mark you are making me work, four owners manuals and a couple of shop service manuals and there seems to be no rule of thumb here to say 10% or 15% would be the maximum weight added. It depends on the chassis as several are big tractors small engines and the larger engines depending on the chassis sizing it is all different. I was hoping to find a simple way for everyone to use. On some tractors 20% seems to be a nice margin but it does make a difference as to where it goes. With loaders and everything else to consider I don't know how to better do it than talking with the dealer that is selling it to you and hope he is about right, and you are safe with what he recommends to get the most from your equipment in both performance and longevity! ....

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TomG
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2002-12-12          46043

Yes Art! Thanks for the work. It's one of the things that makes this Board a pretty good place.

I'm not surprised if gross weight limits aren't stated. If chassis rather than drive train is the limiting factor a bunch of variables not under the manufacturer's control would be present. Load shocks while driving probably would be a big issue, and the shocks would depend on terrain, ground speed, tire type and pressure etc.

I haven't thought it before, but I wonder if people who run stiff R4's and high tire pressures are doing their tractors any favours if they don't actually need R4 characteristics to get their work done.

I imagine that R4's haven't been in common enough use for long enough to produce the maintenance statistics needed to tell if there are additional risks to a chassis. However, if there are, dealers will probably know it long before the statistical analysts and CS reps.
....

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DRankin
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2002-12-12          46051

Art, by way of comparison, my Deere 4100 (1500 lbs/20 HP) does give specific numbers. They say the safest way to do loader work is with a ballast box with 750 lbs (+/-) and wheel weights/loaded tires at another 250 to 360 lbs.

Bottom line: hang at least 900 to 1000 lbs on the rear end of this model for safe and effective FEL use. ....

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Art White
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2002-12-12          46062

Well fella's let me to tell you some more. There is no heavy tillage job done by farm tractors that doesn't have a certain amount of tire slippage. For plowing a field they do recommend to be in the 7 to 12% slippage range and there are more for discing and other practices. I do recommend to go as light as possible,but not in excess. Mark, for your 4100 that 1000lbs is about what I'd say I'd want to use for a max on that size but for different tasks I might say you would never need it. We do have to remember that we have to use a total here of tractor and attachments. The Big Case-IH tractors we sell do have maximum weights for the tractors and we don't even touch those numbers here in the northeast. They gave us a CD to plug in the tractors jobs and they according tire size and pressure will give us the ballast needed to do the job as well as to balance the tractor from front to rear. With the hills and often wet conditions in parts of our landscape we have undersized our equipment so the farmers can get it done even if conditions aren't perfect. Lets turn it around a little differently in an economical way, many tires dry rot off tractors befor the tread is gone if not used enough. If there is no fluid we could change our tires in our driveway if we wanted. Could we dare say we would go in for a blowen ring and pinion from the rear or front axle of our tractors in our driveway? Or even a gear that we commonly use in the transmission? Let them spin some, they don't have to be locked to the ground.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-12-13          46079

A conclusion I'd make from all this is that safety and tractor longevity aren't necessarily compatible goals. I sort of expect that manufacturers are sensitive to liability things so any recommendations are going to be on the 'safe' side and perhaps at the expense of longevity. Of course, in the long run a manufacturer won't sell many tractors if they gain a reputation for short working lives. Marketplace discipline may be what keeps manufactures from turning tractors into childproof bottles.

Anyway, I hope I've developed a sense of what's needed for safe operation. A reasonably education feel of the tractor may keep operators out of trouble more than manufacturer recommendations.

I like my weight detachable so I don't have to use more than necessary to get comfortable operation because I've understood the relationship between weight and wear and tear for awhile now. I haven't loaded my turf tires because I get my work OK by just taking a little longer to do it occasionally. Sometimes I do feel the tires slipping during heavy box scraper work. If I remember from a previous discussion, you can't feel the slippage until it gets to around 20%, which is a bit more than desirable. Slippage is definitely a strange sensation.
....

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KIOTIMAN
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-12-22          46468

I would would go with at least 30 hp if you want to use your implements. if this is just a purchase to do lawn mowing and spread the occasional 5 yards of dirt the smaller tractor will do. ....

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DH83
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2002-12-22          46473

Art,Have you ever sold any of those new Case quad tracks?
My boss has a ST370 (stieger)he pulls twin dirt scrapers
with it.The operator said he can snuff the big Cummins before the tracks ever spin,unless he is in mud.Have you
heard of any problems with these new Quad Tracks? Nothing
to do with CUT's but I thought of this when you said"let'em
spin". ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2002-12-23          46490

The 370 steiger from what I've been told is a near perfect match with two pans where the bigger units you can get to spin as well as have extra power. They do have those units down for what RPM as far as use. I can't remember the exact pattern as to the rpm's to load the machine and which pan to have open when. We have not sold any of them but for your bosses use they have the best payback of all pans at this time for single operator use with a larger payload than conventional pans. With tracks you should not normally be spinning. ....

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