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jeff r
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2002-09-25          42909

Hey guys,
This past weekend my buddy and his Dad were cutting wood and falling trees in upper Michigan, when a falling tree didn't fall according to plan and hit his new JD 4100 a glancing blow to the side fender while missing the ROPS hitting the fender and cracking the rear axle housing. If you wonder why JD doesnt recommend a backhoe for the 4100 here is the reason. THe rear axle housing is cast aluminium about a 600 dollar part last I heard. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR and an alumnium axle housing isn't what most JD buyers had in mind when they bought a tractor.


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DH83
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2002-09-25          42912

OH,ISN'T THE 4100 ALL JAPANESE BUILT,NO WONDER ITS MADE OUT
OF ALUMINUM....BUY AMERICAN AND YOU'LL GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. ....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-09-26          42928

I understand your dismay, yet our dealership has sold one heck of alot of those 4100's, and have yet to sell the part you mentioned.

I have no idea how big the falling tree was, or even if it made a sound when it fell, but those two better count their blessings they were not standing beside that tractor when the tree fell. That axle housing may be considered weak, by your standards, but I bet it's alot tougher than a human being.

Let's be carefull out there! ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-26          42929

Ok, so what is the message here? If you drop a tree on a tractor and the tractor gets damaged, that there is something wrong with the tractor?

And please point me to the American compact tractor you are referring to, you know the one that is completely made and assembled inside these borders. And while you are at it, find me an American car or truck.

I wish my 4100 was here and not on consignment 45 miles away. I would go outside with a magnet and find out what the axle housing is made of, most tractors in the size class of the 4100 are anywhere from 100 to 250 pounds lighter than the 4100. So if there are major cast components made from aluminum on the 4100, what does that say about it’s light weight competition?

MrEthics, do you still have that 4100 on the lot and a magnet somewhere in the shop?
....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-26          42931

No need for that. The trans. part on the tractor in question is aluminium. I will confirm it.

But, I do know that aluminium, lb for lb, is stronger than steel.

As for a CUT that is totally american, man......I can't think of any. Not since the days of the John Deere "L" or the IH "cub". Say what we want about those Japs, but there is some good stuff comeing from that island. That is not to say that there is all bad stuff made here in N. America.

I guess we should get a 4310 and drop a tree on it, before I sell another one.

Imagine if you will:

"Durn!!!.....missed again!!!." "Hey Ralph, park it over by that Weeping Willow and let's try it again" "Man...look how many rings are on that oak stump we just cut, 'bet that tree was here when God was just a boy!"

This whole topic reminds me of the the story of a local man who was trimming a tree and dropped a large limb on his house. His rafters, sheeting and shingles must have been sub-standard also. Not to mention the chainsaw was from Italy.

In the imortal words of Homer Simpson..........."Dooolt!!!!!!!" ....

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Billy
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2002-09-26          42934

My wife is a supervisor for Poulan-Weedeater in DeQueen AR, which happens to be the world's largest chainsaw plant. There's nothing totally American anymore, at least if it has more than 2 parts. But hey, those other countries buy parts from us too. So all in all, it's what makes the world go round.

Before someone says it, Poulan does make some good chainsaws and they make some not so good. But you can blame that on Wally World, they want something cheap and Poulan makes it for them. To Wal-Mart's specs. All in all, even with the cheap Wal-Mart saws, if a person was to take of it like you are suppose to, it'll last for years and years. The biggest problem people have with chainsaws is old gas and not mixing the oil and gas right.

Billy ....

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Ted@Abbeywoods, LLC
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2002-09-26          42940

When I first saw this post I was curious to say the least. I come to this forum to help if I can, to learn, and to enjoy the great diversity of opinions that so many bring here gleaned from their life's experiences. So when I read "DH83's" post I was primed for the attack, and then I bit my tongue. I think this guy is just looking to ignite some kind of powder keg. He probably was looking forward to a good round of bashing someone or something, but it didn't work.

The reason it didn't work is because nearly everyone who contributes here, in good faith, knows the universal truth about life: there is good and bad in everything! I don't know of any perfect people, or any perfect manufacturer, or of any perfect tractor. A lot of times quality comes down to the luck of the draw. The big issue for me is how often do things go wrong with one make or another, but most importantly, what will the manufacturer do to make right a wrong, and how fast will they do it?

I listen to the wisdom and experience of the good folk who come here, and this helps me to be a better informed buyer, make good repairs, to be a better businessman, and a better person. My hat's off to all who had the cool to not fall for the bait! ....

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-09-26          42941

Hey guys,
Just drove up to take a look at the damage, fender was bent and tire had a bark scuff mark on it. Looks like fender and tire took the brunt of the damage. To me, I think I could have kicked it and did more damage. Aluminium may stronger pound per pound but it seems to me to be a poor choice materials for a critical component like a tractors Axle housing unless you are looking for casting and machining savings. If tensile strength was an issue wonder why they didn't use graphite composite....LOL.... because graphite composite is tough get green paint to stick to so the buyer can't see the underneath material I bet. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-26          42944

Actually they paint the underside black. ....

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DH83
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2002-09-26          42954

OK I'M SORRY I HIT A NERVE WITH YOU JAPANESE FANS,I GUESS
I JUST GET TIRED OF THE KUBOTA BOYS BASHING THE JD'S.REALLY
CAN U JUDGE A TRACTOR HOW IT STANDS UP TO A TREE? OUR
TRUCK ENGINE HAVE PLASTIC OIL PANS AND VALVE COVERS,THEY
SEEM TO LAST OVER A MILLION MILES WITHOUT LEAKING....SO
MY POINT IS THAT IS THE ALUMINUM HOUSING BAD BECAUSE IT
WONT STAND UP TO A TREE???? ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-26          42957

DH83,
I'm just curious where you think your 4310 is made? ....

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JJT
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2002-09-26          42959

DH83, Do us all a favor and hit the caps lock key, it's on the lower left of your keyboard. I for 1 find all caps a little offensive. Or are you really meaning to SHOUT? JJT ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-26          42960

Would cast iron with stand a shock like a tree hitting it? I have seen cracked iron castings before on a tractor.
I think it would be false economy to replace a 5 cent a lb iron casting with a 50 cent a pound aluminum casting depite the reduced weight. I don't believe that the auto companies are replacing iron blocks with aluminum to reduce costs.
A tree carries a lot of force and weight when it falls. I fell trees on the west coast for employment for a while and they certainly can do some damage.
Dad had the work truck smashed by a tree once. Rather a large tree. His boss had his truck and pulled up in a wind storm. The tree came down across the work boxes and crushed them down to near the frame. Both axes were broken. The tree was near 6 ft diameter fir though. ....

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jeff r
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2002-09-26          42961

Hey guys,
Although I currently own a kubota b2150hst, I have owned a Ford NAA Jubilee, Ford 8n, JD 2010 Diesel, JD 4020, FORD 1710 diesel. Unlike some folks, I earned the right to be critical because I have owned a broad range of major brands and sizes. That being said, How many folks would have bought a JD 4100 knowing the axle housing was aluminium??? YOU ARE RIGHT ...NOT MANY. The point I was trying to make before the JD 4100 owners came out of the woodwork to defend their buying decisions, is the simple possible reason JD doesn't recommend a backhoe for for the 4100. JD knows something about stress analysis of AL and for whatever reason the consumer is being told only "NO BACKHOES". If the tractor could take a backhoe don't you think JD would take your hard earned dollars for a backhoe?? If you 4100 owners are happy with your aluminium axle housing....GREAT, I wouldn't be, but don't shoot me the messinger if I tell you something about your machine you don't want to hear. It could have been any brand.

Another little side light story for "y'all. A tractor friend of mine that I met here recently bought a new Kubota B-7500. Mowing the grass, his rops bar scrapped the eaves trough and soffit board of his house and broke the mounting bolt castings on the axle housing that bolts the ROPS bar to the tractor. Guess What? They are ALuminium too. The dealer came out and found that only 2 bolts out of 6 or 8 (I think) were installed. Guess What??? The dealer blamed it on Kubota factory assembly. Can anybody tell me whats wrong (I think) with this excuse??? Think about it before I tell you what I think happened.
Hope this makes the JD owners feel better that I am an equal opportunity brand critic.
LOL, my truck's oil pan is NOT plastic and this tree that hit this tractor WAS NOT 6 feet diameter nor did it hit this tractor perpendicular, It hit it parallel and a glancing blow. How do I know? The bark scuff was more pronounced at the rear of the tire and fender than at the front indicating the tree was falling at an angle. Th tree was 6-7 inches in diameter and the tractor was 6 foot from the tree so the hitting force velocity was much less as if the tractor got hit at 20 feet away. POINT?? Not much force was required to crack this housing even though it sounds worse than it really is. The stresses a backhoe can but on a tractor are HUGE. After seeing what I saw I know now why I JD doesn't want a backhoe on that tractor. Simply stated, CAST ALUMINIUM BREAKS UNDER LOWER STRESS THAN CAST IRON OR STEEL. ....

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DH83
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2002-09-26          42968

Wolbert the 4310 is built in Georgia,the front axle on it is cast iron and is built by Spicer,but.....I just checked,
the rear axle tubes that are bolted to the rear end are aluminum,I guess I have not heard of any breaking (except
for falling trees).JJT,sorry about the caps lock,thats just
the way I type when I'm in a hurry.I know the Japanese make
good equiptment.I guess I am just very pro American in these tough economic times,I would of never believed the
stock market would drop to 7700
....

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Peters
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2002-09-26          42969

Jeff;
All depends on the aluminum alloy used. I can make a housing much tougher than steel or iron with the same mass depending on the alloy. What kind of forces do you think are exerted on the Al landing gear when a 50,000 lb F-14 Tom Cat slams into the deck in a controlled crash and catches the 3 wire. Of course these alloys are a little more than expensive than those used for JD tractors.
Despite this I agree I would probably rather have cast iron for a tractor housings, bolts do not hold well in Al and I do not relish the task of removing steel bolts from Al after corrosion sets in. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2002-09-26          42970

DH, your engine is a Yanmar. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-26          42971

DH,
Assembled in Georgia from mostly foreign parts !! ....

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DH83
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2002-09-26          42973

10-4 Mark,I think every diesel in 4000's and under are all
yanmars.You guys are right I don't think you can buy anything that is American made except the NAME,my 2002
Harley has Showa(japanese)front forks and the starter is
a Nipendenso,my Polaris snowmobile and 4 wheeler have
fuji engines.I guess I always try to buy American names
when I buy something and hope all profits will stay in
American banks but maybe I'm all wet and should have a
open mind to world wide trade.It seems that we import a lot
more than we export to foreign countries....but thats
another subject.I guess I should have proof read what I
posted the first time,but I was a little ticked and took
the bait....like Ted said. ....

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DH83
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2002-09-26          42975

that should be--100% American made----I need to proof read
more......... ....

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DavesTractor
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2002-09-27          42976

An interesting twist is that Kukje in South Korea is making some JD's now (5300/5400, etc) and they are also putting together some of the F-series Yanmars, using Yanmar drivetrains. My Mitsu excavator is made by Shin-Mitsubishi Caterpillar in Tokyo. The more you look into this international mix of companies, the more you find that there are very few tractors built in one country. Some of the Chinese tractors are made entirely in China with Chinese parts...and that's not necessarily a good thing! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-27          42977

There was a curious story from another board awhile back. Somebody cracked the cases (it probably actually was an axle housing) by tightening the ROPS bolts. It was some model of Kubota and I assume cast iron.

Apparently there is an angle between the housings, which taper, and the ROPS mounts. There also are torque specs and a tightening sequence that likely weren't looked up before doing what seemed routine wrenching. I guess the story could be doubted, but nuts and bolts do have a lot of mechanical advantage and can apply a lot of force, as can a falling tree. There is an assumption here that the fault is AL and that the same result wouldn't have happened with iron. Doesn't seem likely but then nobody really knows.

I have assumptions too. What I can't figure is why a manufacturer would use a part that is more expensive and probably weaker but is also lighter than traditional alternatives. Owners just end up loading their tires with CACL. I probably don't have the big picture.
....

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DRankin
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2002-09-27          42986

I think I just figgered something out. The Kioti 1914 is the same exact physical size as the 4100 and the same size 3 cyl/20hp engine, and it is 500# heavier. Steel. ....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-09-27          43004

TomG,

The correct ballasting af a tractor....any tractor, compact or otherwise depends on the tractors use.

These compacts are truely used in such a wide variety of situations, moreso that Ag tractors.

And it gets worse.....the buyers are generally more particular than farmers......WHOA...DON'T GET MAD FOLKS LET ME EXPLAIN.

Your typical farmer has a different set of rules in which he lives by. When he buys a tractor that must do a variety of jobs, he will ballast that sucker to the hilt, and it will stay that way. He has little time to fool around adding or taking off weight, you make hay when the sun shines, you miss an hour, you may miss a cutting. The rotary cutter may not do a perfect job on his roadside, but he cares little.

Now...John Q. Public walks through the door. He wants his tractor light footed enough to mow the lawn, because if it leaves a streak of grass, it's considered a failure. and when the FEL is being used, he wants enough ballast to move St. Louis and if it won't, well he didn't think he got his moneys worth.

That being said, compacts must be made as light as reasonably posible, because adding weight to a lighter tractor is alot easier than trying to get rid of 500 lbs from a tractor with no weights, or slop in the tires.

The compact arena, is probably the most market driven segment of tractor building I have ever seen.

And......I believe most mfgrs. have filled that demand.... almost perfectly in thier own induvidual ways, with one exception.

We must watch for falling trees.............

Gravity, it seems, is one law that is strictly enforced.

....

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jeff r
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2002-09-27          43027

DO Kubota tractors come from Kubota with the ROPS Bar installed or is that something the dealer has to do? I saw a truck load of Kubota's and I dont remember a packing crate that tall?? ....

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dcsmith
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2002-09-27          43030

The ROPS is connected to the frame by the factory. There is a second piece that the dealer attatches just above the fenders. B Series anyhow. ....

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TomG
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2002-09-28          43039

Thanks for a good summary of the big picture Mr.E. I'm not sure I was actually missing it but I sure couldn't have said it as well.

It still seems ironic that one of the first things new sub-compact owners want to do is fill the tires, but I guess we don't hear much from owners who only want to finish mow.

I recognize that compact designs face enormous pressures as roles for the tractor change from the original miniature ag tractor in Japan to include general exurban tasks (and some would say the latest guy-toy chores).

My wife and I ventured out from our logging area the other day through an area of working farms and saw a new compact design. At the corner of a field along the highway, somebody had assembled square and round bales in different sizes into the profile of a tractor and wagon. They spray painted tractor features on the bales and sat a scarecrow in the seat. The scarecrow was smiling, so I guess it was happy with the design. Must have been for Halloween and I really wish I had taken a picture.
....

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Peters
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2002-09-28          43051

AL vs Cast iron.
Tom
AL is more money than cast iron but as you many have noticed if you have been to the rust belt lately, cast iron is going the way for the Dodo. Most of the steel in this country is now made in mini-mills, reprocessing steel. The integrated steel, iron and iron casting has left a lot of areas that once were dominated by the plants, Pitt, Clevland, Toledo, Birmingham, Detroit etc.
Gees now you are making me depressed, I am going to long for that dusting of iron oxide over my car from the blast furnaces. Not!!! ....

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Ted@Abbeywoods, LLC
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2002-09-28          43055

Those of you who who have followed my contributions probably know that besides my part-time landscaping business I'm still a full-time tool engineer working in aerospace. We use a lot of steel, titanium, and aluminum both in our products and in our tooling. I can say without hesitation that steel beats aluminum everyday, hands down, for overall strength.

But that isn't the end of the story, there are some pretty tough aluminum alloys, like 7075T6 and 6061T6. To offset aluminum's nasty habit of stripping out threads we make extensive use of hardened steel inserts that have a coating to prevent galvanic action. So what? For starters this saves weight but gives the part, or tool, the ability to hold greater torques. We also pay very close attention to stress risers, those nasty physical characteristics that result in cracks at the worst times. This is done by adding more material in stress areas and through the use of generous radiused fillets. Sharp angles and thin walls have no place in aluminum designs used for stress active areas.

What am I trying to say? I'm saying that whether it was a design flaw, a marketing move, or a cost saving effort, or just plain lack of engineering sense, aluminum should not have been used in that critical an area without using the methods I described above. Why Deere (and others) has such a product has been addressed already by all of you, now we need to know if they have learned anything from their failures? Word travels very fast these days, so much so that two of my friends asked my advice regarding who makes the best compact. I told them to come here and browse the archives because this is where one can get the real story, and not some marketing wizard's line of manure. ....

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jeff r
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2002-09-28          43058

HEY Ted,
I'm a Field Service Engineer A2LA certified for a large maufacturer of tensile and Rockwell hardness testing equipment and do work for just about everybody in industrial America. I deal with metallugists on a daily basis and know exactly what you are talking about. What brand of testing equipment do you use? I probably have repaired or calibrated it at one time or another. Give me a call if you got problems. Have tools will travel...LOL. Aluminium is very easy to machine and cast as compared to steel and cast iron. That is why there is cost savings over steel and cast iron. Big price difference in hardening Grade 8 bolts too. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-28          43067

Ted, I want to reenter this fray very cautiously. I learned a very long time ago not to argue with trained engineers, but I must respectfully point out that some of these parts do break but consider the circumstances. I know of two instances where driveline parts on small Deere’s have had serious failures.
1) Where the owners have ignored the manufacturers (and their engineers) warnings and either mounted a backhoe on a model where they were warned not to do so, or tried to save money by mounting a backhoe on a three point hitch to avoid the cost of a sub-frame.
2) Falling trees.
Believe it or not, I think these situations are related.
Since I now own a backhoe, and I still own a 4100, I have a new appreciation of the stresses involved. There has been a lot of debate on the site about where the stress originates and here is my observation.
When we set up to do some hoeing the first thing we do is to point the FEL bucket edge straight down and drive it into the dirt. Then we lower the outriggers on the BH to form a stable platform, and before the BH bucket touches the earth we have just stressed the driveline components and set ourselves up for failure with our 4100 or our 3PH mounted hoe.
Because the FEL is planted in the earth in a non-level environment, one side of the bucket or the other is going to bear more weight than the other side. This stress is transmitted to the mounting brackets and the lateral beams bolted to the drive train on which the entire FEL system is mounted. When this happens we are literally trying to turn or twist the engine, the transmission or both, clockwise or counterclockwise in relation to the rear end or the 3PH.
When we start to dig and the hoe lifts the rear of the tractor and lets it slam back down to earth, it is like a four legged stool with one short leg that rocks back and forth, slamming from one vector to the other, until something gives.
I am not an engineer; I wish I were, nonetheless, I know how things work. These, in an engineering sense, are the same forces harnessed by the reciprocating actions of John Browning’s 1911 pistol and David “Carbine” Williams M1 carbine designs.
In this case we twist the drive train, and then hammer it in the direction the load forces are trying to take it. It then shatters the housing or loosens the boltholes and comes apart.

What does this have to do with the tree?
Well I would be willing to bet the baby’s milk money that that tree hit the loader upright support when it hit that glancing blow to the tractor fender. And when it did it applied the same type of force vectors that a torqued/twisted/stressed drive train would apply to the transmission housing. I am guessing the moment of failure came when the entire moving mass of tractor, loader and tree hit the pivot stop on the front axle.
Bottom line: if it is used as designed the 4100 and the rest of the Deere compact tractor line will not break in half. Just make sure you follow the engineering guidelines and keep them out of the way of falling trees.

....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-30          43108

Three cheers for Mark!!!!

To all engineeres, with my earned respect.

I have not yet learned the futility argueing with trained engineers. Because, every once in a while, I'm right....durn it!! And besides, my stepson is an engineer.
What legal rights this gives me is unknown. But read on.

It was his ambition to go to Purdue, his mother and I gave him as much encouragement as it took. We cried when he left home, we cried when he graguated, and we cried when he was hired at is current position, and knew he was leaving tne nest to see if he could fly on his own.

All through his schooling, we could tell how much the educators were shapeing his mind, the occasional weekends and holidays home, you could tell.

We sweat along with him through thremo dynamics, We even bought the same textbooks and worked at home, so we were always on the same page when he called. He had a heck of a time with that class, but, together, we made it through.

We met many of his frat. bros. All good , bright kids.

But, through all of that, I always noticed the way the mind was trained, and the way they became to think.

They lacked "horse sense". There is no way to teach that. Not in four years anyway.

And as our society progresses, less and less engineers will enter the workplace with the expeirience that is required to have such "horse sense". They ran them through here like a machine. Yes, his summers were spent at jobs as an Intern, but these internships are spent under the supervision of people who have completed the same training. The fox again gaurds the henhouse.

Ingenuity, common sense, are traits that I believe are learned in the formitive years under our parents wings.

It does not require a college degree to know, that if a big tree falls on something (someone), the tree wins more than it loses.

Now, back on the subject:

If you feel the tree to be to small to create this kind of damage, you may be correct. So let's investigate.

No. 1:

According to your post, and subseqent posts, you were not present when the tree fell. So, we don't know excatly how it really landed. Ole' Mark's thoery may be correct.

No. 2:

The part in question may have been partly damaged in the hours before the incedent with the tree. I know it was stated that it was new, however, damage like that could only takes a second. I've seen this kinda thing before.
The axe rarely drops a tree on it's first blow.

No. 3:

Nobody is perfect, maybe the part in question was substandard? It happens, to every company, that a bad part slips through the cracks. The problem here is warenties will not cover misuse or abuse. But you find me a judge or jury that will not call falling a tree on a tractor misuse or abuse and I'll buy a round for the house. If you want to take this aproach, it's gonna take some pretty strong evidence.


Contact your insurance company. I doubt if the deductable is low enough to do you much good, but by the time the fender is repaired, and the tractor is inspected for susequent damage, the bill could be pretty steep.



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DRankin
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2002-09-30          43112

Good point. The damages may well be covered under your homeowners insurance, even if it didn't happen on the insured property. I have seen cases where injuries and damages occured far from home and were covered under the homeowners insurance. ....

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Billy
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2002-09-30          43115

When I bought my JD 4610, I bought their insurance too. It covers accident and theft. If I was to cut a tree and it fell on my tractor, the insurance would cover it. The insurance was $272.00 for 5 years of coverage, with a $500.00 deductable. I know for a fact it is good insurance cause I used it on my other tractor :)

Billy ....

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Ted@Abbeywoods, LLC
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2002-09-30          43124

Jeff, the answers are: Panametrics for ultrasound, Wilson - Rockwell and Barber-Coleman for conventional hardness, and zyglow and/or magnaflux for conventional crack detection. We also employ some other very advanced proprietary methods of our own which I can't talk about.

As for Mark, well, you better enter this fray cautiously because besides being a "trained" engineer, I'm also an ex-SAC Trained Killer! Being such I know exactly who John Browning was, a really "garand" guy (sorry I couldn't resist) Actually, there is no need to worry about what I would have to say because you have done a pretty good job of figuring it out all by your ownself! I wouldn't argue anyway because I think there is room enough aplenty for guess work and opinions, and not having all of the exact stuff to work with all anyone could do is take a guess.

Mark came up with some good engineering lingo, which happens to be correct (I think) and it is based on force vectoring and Newton's laws. No, not the guy who invented the cookies, but Sir Isaac. Even though he wasn't a cop or a lawyer or even a politician, he came up with some pretty good laws - I'm forced to observe them everyday. So just for laughs: this failure involes force vectoring based on the quantities of force, velocity, acceleration, moment, displacement, specific direction and magnitude. In this failure, priority is to be given to direction, point of application, venues of transmission, and magnitutde.

Here is an example of what I shovel every day: the falling object imparting variable and constantly increasing acceleration of its mass as transmitted at the specific point(s) of application becomes irrelevent, however, as its force is carried through the struck body it will accelerate that body's mass along multiple centers of rotation, with the body supported in an artificial center of gravity condition. The body will torque until either 1) the force overcomes the strength of material(s) at which time you will hear a cracking noise and an expletive deleted or 2) continues to be transmitted through the body intact into a greater mass where it becomes null and you will hear, "Whoa baby! Did I get lucky or what?" I even think Newton used those terms himself. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-30          43128

Ted;
How do you get the yellow and black markings off your head at night?
I'm sorry thats a low blow but for that post you asked for it.
I'm sure some of my posts are as technospeak.
Peters
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jeff r
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2002-09-30          43130

Mark,
Great hypothesis but the cracked housing is in the rear axle NOT the Front. The front axle was completely missed by the tree since if was facing away from the tree. The tree was falling at an angle from the rear of the tractor, plus the tractor didn't have a loader, all in all your theory has the same results only coming from the rear angle. ....

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jeff r
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2002-09-30          43133

MRETHICS,

When O.J. got off the murder rap and the gal got 7 million bucks from McDonalds for hot coffee burns, the jury system lost all credibility for me. Average jury members can be brainwashed to believe anything the defense wants them to believe. Jury decisions are for the most part decided by high dollar tort attourneys who are specialists in makeing other people believe the stupid, the impossible, and all the other idiotic garbage that lets criminals run free or civil plaintiffs get rich all in the the name of "innocent until proven guilty" or "preponderance of the evidence." Seems like everbody wants their homeowners to pay for every loss they incure, maybe that's why Mchigan insurance companies just announced last week ALL MI homeowners insurance rates will rise an average of 25%?
You are right I wasn't there to witness the accident but then again I wasn't there to see men land on the moon. All I know is sticking my finger in a blow torch will result in damage and pain, and I don't have to be "there" to know what will happen to you if you put your finger in a different torch.
Since you are buyng drinks for the house defending judges and juries that make stupid decisions everyday without merit or logic, make my drink .......Long Beach Ice Tea. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-30          43143

A tractor without a loader? Was this in America? ....

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TomG
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2002-10-01          43146

I carry my tractor and implements under a special schedule on my homeowner's policy. I know the policy does not cover damage to property or tractor that results from usage. In my case, if wind blew the tree on the tractor it probably would be covered but probably not if I was trying to take the tree down.

After we had 500-gallons of waste oil removed from our camp, my insurance broker observed 'Well I hope you knew that if it had spilled there wouldn't have been any coverage.’ The explanation was that insurance is for accidents and maintaining a property with a known hazard might not qualify as an accident. I guess if a tree was dead for awhile then it should have been identified as a hazard and so maybe it wouldn't qualify as an accident even if wind blew it down.

Don't know. Insurance concepts seem as opaque as engineering and legal ones do sometimes.
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MRETHICS
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2002-10-01          43156

Man, ya gotta love this guy, just based on his tennocity.

Judges, and jurys do make stupid decisions. See No.3 in my previous post......Nobody is perfect. Which also relates to falling a tree on a tractor.

As for the O.J trial specifically, while the media gave that trial lot's of air time, and most folks think they new everything that went on in the court room, truth is....they did not. And the jury did. And they made their decision, based partly on the evidence presented to them, and partly on their responsibility as a jurist. in other words, their must have been a reasonable(very important word) doubt. Crimanal law and Cival law are two different things. Because of the penalties in Criminal court are much more severe,in terms of the accused's unalianable rights, the burden of proof on the Govt. is harder to prove.

Our founding fathers had some serious ideas in their heads when they made the responsibilities of being on a jury part of our heritage. They took great pains to prevent innocent men from being punished. They would rather have guilty men be free than innocent men going to jail. When you think about that, it becomes clear that there will be some killers running free. Again...nobody is perfect.

As for insurance companies, there are some basic principles most people lose sight of.

Insurance is at best....gambleing....against the house!
The house will always have it's advantages.

Insurance is one of the most regulated industries in the U.S. To help protect the consumor, and the company.

Insurance has become almost a nessesity, due to the fact we enjoy great wealth in this part of the world. This is perfect logic. If you had no monetary value to your name, excactly what would you need to insure??

Insurance companies have no responsibility to put you in a better financial position than you were before the accident was incurred. They can if they want, but they do not have too. And if you elect to take that amount of coverage, you will have to pay more money for it. Debt, also creats a nessesity. Banks will not loan money unless the colateral value is reasonably(important word) stable. Insurance gives colateral a more stable value.

Insurance companies have the right to seek (not to be confused with a garrentee) a profit. More perfect logic. If the insurance company can't make any money, they would not excist.

If there is a statewide 25% rate hike in Mi. The State regulatory agency had to approove it.

Yes, everybody wants their insurance policy to pay for any damages that were caused by accident. Again this is logical. The policy holder payed for coverage, he would naturaly expect to be covered. But, in comes the House rules. It is their decision to decide what is an accident, and what is not. The Govt. also has a hand in this decision as well. And so does the policy holder. While it is not reasonably(there is that word again, or another form of it anyway)possible to put every situation in a policy, language is in the policy to let the consumor know what the intent of the coverage is. And if the policy holder does not feel he has enough coverage, he does not have to sign.

The policy you sign is nothing more than a contract. Within this documant the responsibilities of both parties are written in black and white. You pay said amount of money, for said amount of coverage, in said situations. Anything that deviates from that, is still up for debate.(translated...The courts will decide. Unless you give up that right and settle).

The insurance company, just like any store owner, has the right to do bussiness with whoever he choses. If you have more claims than they like to see in a certain period of time, they have the right to refuse future service,(Non renewal) or raise their prices(self expanitory). If you fail to comply with your responsibilities in the contract, or meet criteria spelled out in the contract they can kick you out of the store(cancelation).

Now JeffR.
If your are attacking my logic, let's let the forum decide. Yea, they could say you are more logical than I. I would respect their decision. I would much rather buy a round for the house, Than see you shamed off the board. Your credentials could provide some valuable info on here.

If your are just trying to light my fire, well guess you did, a little anyway, and I was temped not to respond. But then I thought maybe someone would get some good from an explaination of what ins.provides us, and posted anyway.

No drinks yet!!!!!

One more thought. Never under estimate the power of being reasonable. (that word again!)





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Billy
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2002-10-01          43157

Could it be the reason ALL insurance is going up is because of frivolous lawsuits? And the jury's awarding ungodly amounts?

Like the woman who spilled her hot coffee on herself. I think some of our juries need to stop feeling sorry for people and get real. My mom told me 40 years ago that smoking wasn't good for you but now people get gigantic judgements because they got cancer from smoking.

Jeff, if you did stick your finger in that blowtorch, most likely (with the right lawyer and jury) you could get some serious bucks. The torch should have had warning labels in 3 different languages on it. It's sad but true.

Sometimes it's just plain ole common sense that will keep you safe and healthy.

Billy
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jeff r
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2002-10-01          43196

You guys are too funny, but MRETHICS free drink was really good. Gimme that blowtorch I need some quick heavy cash from LINCOLN, Harris or Hobart. Some juror will feel sorry for me when I walk in the court room with a full body cast connected to IV bottles talking with a lisp. Those torches really bring out the worst in me. Hey OJ, I won't even have to pull the race card.
Did you guys know OJ just bought a 2.5 million house on the beach in Florida? SEE! The race card really does work well in the good ol USA. I wonder what brand of tractor he bought?

Cheers

jeff R ....

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Billy
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2002-10-01          43199

Jeff, I do believe you have some kind of problem. I just haven't figured it out yet.

Billy ....

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jeff r
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2002-10-01          43201

Billy,

Me too. Billy, I think it was caused by holding a microphone and doing stand-Up way too long. Can I sue somebody for consequental damages? LOL

Jeff R ....

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Billy
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2002-10-01          43202

I doubt it Jeff, but I may be able to sue the idiots that hired you ;)

Billy ....

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DRankin
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2002-10-01          43205

In every practical sense, A bottle in front o' me equals a frontal lobotomy.
No offense jeff, but enough free drinks on the E-meister. By the way, when you wake up tomorrow and have at LEAST two cups of strong coffee, what the hell is a long beach ice tea?
The Old Street Cop.

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MRETHICS
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2002-10-02          43214

Simply put, a Long Beach Ice tea, is a Long Island Ice Tea, but replace the Cola with Cranberry juice. My Wife like's them.

I hear they are a popular drink in Key West and San Francisco. Maybe JeffR hangs out there some.



I know how to make 'em, and the kind of folks who drink 'em.

But I ain't buyin' yet. ....

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DRankin
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2002-10-02          43218

I think Jeff started without you. ....

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Art White
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2002-10-02          43232

Sounds like a good drink to me. next time I'm mixing up a batch of Long Islands I'll try the jucie. ....

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Murf
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2002-10-02          43236

This thread has me in a quandary, I can't figure out what is more ludicrous;

1) some dolt parked his new JD Compact within 'striking range' of a tree HE HIMSELF was cutting down,

2) people actually got emotional over item 1), or,

3) that it actually warranted 50 posts before somebody (me) pointed out just how inane this whole thing is.....

As always, best of luck..... Which in this case means don't get anywhere near jeff r.'s buddy's place. ....

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