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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2002-08-25 41628
The spec sheet for the BX2200 and BX22(also the B7500) do not mention a position control feature for the three point hitch. So what have you got? Full up and full down with nothing in between?
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 | JoeCaltran1
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2002-08-25 41631
Yes, it is either full up or full down. I rented a BX1800 for the weekend and in eight hours, I excavated about 50 tons of material and placed 24 tons of Class 2 Aggregate Base. Due to lack of position control, the box scraper was useless. I used the loader the most for smoothing and placing the base rock. However, I discover that the loader power is lacking. When digging into a pile of base rock, I had to back up to get the loader to raise. I liked the stability, the power. I never lacked for engine power, just hydralic power. I was considering buying a BX2200, but now I will look at the B2710. It has at least twice the hydralic power for the loader. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-25 41635
This may not help much. With my 4100 I have had the same problem. If I bury loader in a pile of dirt it will not break upwards and free without some jiggling and wiggling. And between the 4100 and the 2710 there isn't a nickels worth of difference in the loader capacity.
Did I read correctly?
100,000# of stuff moved in a single day?
WOW!
Holy COW!
My concerns about the loader capacity have just gone to the back burner. But I might have to really think hard about the front blade gizmo for the BX22. Its only about $900 more and it will give me a position control blade.
Thanks, Your input is quite helpful. Mark ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-26 41647
There is another type of 3ph control that I'll call 'centre neutral.' Push down to lower and pull up to lift. I think the 3ph moves faster the further the lever is pulled. I also believe that in neutral, the 3ph floats upward like a position control hitch. Such a hitch might actually be more useful to many owners who don't do much fieldwork. The main advantage of position control is that most quadrant levers have sliding locks, and the lock can be set for a particular position. That way, plows and other implements can be lifted off the ground for transport or turn-around and then pushing the lever down to the lock will return the hitch to its same position.
My Ford engine will sometimes lug down if I'm going into a pile and lifting the bucket at the same time. The engine RPM will usually come back up and the bucket lift if I push in the clutch. Trying to run both the hydraulics and the wheels at the same time takes more power than the engine delivers.
There is a lot of weight to lift if a bucket is put into a pile of gravel near the bottom. I usually go in near the top of a pile even if I have to drive part way up. If the pile is too big, I'll drag some down from the top. I usually go slowly into a pile with the bucket fairly level. I start rolling the bucket back when it's in the pile and then start lifting the bucket out of the pile. There are some tricks that minimize the hydraulic power needed to work gravel piles. A loader that's well matched to the tractor shouldn't over-power the hydraulics.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-08-27 41689
If your loader is properly matched to your tractor, the expeirience that you folks describe about being weak on hydraulics is perfectly normal. Things get pretty complicated on this issue but front axle loads, frame strength, and a host of other issues come to play when matching tractor and loader sizes.
As far as the position control on the 3pt. Kubota has sneaky ways to underprice competetive brands. And without any kind of depth control on the 3pt, you ain't got much. ad the xtra cost in for that option, and guess what? It ain't the deal you thought it was. I face this almost daily.
As far as moveing 50 tons of dirt, and 24 ton of rock (that translates into about one semi, or tri-axle load in these parts)....No sweat. I have a 4200 deere, done this many times.
I was raised on a farm, and am still there(call me stupid), I can remenber when the first compact tractor was introduced to us at a Dealer meeting. I thought Deere was nuts. Now I own one, and I gotta tellya.......It will do everything that old 1966 Deere 3020 row crop tractor and model 48 loader would do.
TomG has listed another handy 3pt feature, and I will add one more.
Load control. This has been a ag- tractor feature for many years. What it does is raise and lower the draft arms to compensate for un-even terrain. In other words, your plow remains at the same depth as your tractor follows the terrain. It takes some time to fine tune, but it works very well when you need it. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-27 41693
Now my dealer is saying that every Kubota has position control on the 3ph, but not all of them have draft control. Is that what you are talking about? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-28 41718
I'll take a guess that load and draft control is the same thing--afterall draft is a kind of load. If not, I sure am interested in what it is.
I used to think that the main thing about draft control was that it'd raise the lift if a hard spot was hit when plowing. I do remember my cousin ‘panic grabbing’ a lever on an IH tractor when the traction failed in order to keep the tractor from digging itself into the field (in the '50's the lever may not have been for a hydraulic lift however). Draft control does that automatically.
After reading a bunch of stuff here, I realized that draft control did a bunch more than lifting over hard spots. At first I thought it maintained constant depth. Well, I guess it does that as long as soil conditions are constant. It really maintains constant draft, which is only approximately the same as constant depth.
What somebody like me (who never was good enough so my uncles would let me plow their fields) might miss is that when a tractor starts up a hill with a plow, the hitch floats upward and then the tractor and plow are on different slopes. When the plow first starts up the hill, it sort of buries itself in the bottom of the hill. In effect, it goes deeper, which increases the draft and the hitch raises it. The same thing in reverse happens at the top and the hitch lowers so you keep plowing rather than pull the plow out of the ground for a few feet. Of course, if a tractor in draft control stops then there’s no draft and the hitch flops down on the ground—not exactly great for finish mowing.
Having said all this, it's important to note that I still have never plowed a field. Of course, many working farmers today don't own moldboard plows I hear, so maybe I just sort of stumbled into modern times.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-08-28 41740
Mark, it's unfortunate that some sales people don't study what they are selling more. Kubota's BX, 7400, and 7500 do not have position control. The rest do have that feature. For many people that buy the smaller compacts it has not been important to them to have that feature. There have been times and they do offer it in there larger tractors and that is part of the higher price of them. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-28 41742
Art, do you have one of these machines in stock? Can you actually confirm? The factory people (Stockton, California Warehouse) say every Kubota three point hitch has position control..... defined as the ability to raise and lower the lower links and stop anywhere in the travel range. They told me that what every Kubota does not have is draft control. I really got to figure this out. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-28 41749
Art: I think I figured it out. I was confused as to how intelligent people could come up with such divergent answers. So I called and asked very specific questions. Here is what I think is happening.
The BX's and 7400/7500 do not have the traditional number calibrated, repeatable, position control we are used to seeing.
Instead it apparently employs a somewhat simplified system.
If you are lowering the 3PH, and you must watch it while you do this, when it gets to the desired level you move the lever from "down" to "neutral" and it will stop and hold there.
Raising is of course the same: "Up" until you get the desired movement and then "neutral" to stop it where you want it.
Can you try this out and advise me if I am on the right track?
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 | jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2002-08-28 41757
When you go into the pile and try to lift a heavy load and it won't lift, that does NOT mean there is something wrong with you tractor hydrolics. I went to the trouble to hook up a 10,000 pound load cell to see exactly how much "lift " my B2150hst with a woods 1006 FEL was lifting. The load lift was 810 pounds. Slightly ABOVE WHERE IT SHOULD BE. If you can't lift out of the pile, then the capacity of you tractor /loader has been reached. If you want to lift it get a bigger tractor with bigger lift diameter cylinders and a bigger pump. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-08-29 41770
Mark, for the way they are saying it yes, they are right. The BX uses a suspended deck off the bottom of the tractor and gives you a bottom stop that is adjustable. They are fully adjustable by the movement of a lever. The larger B's use a ground engaging deck which you set the depth control on the gauge wheels. For what the bulk of these tractors are sopd for there option to use this hitch is fine. There are some applications that need the better hich but yet without draft control for hitch control for load you still haven't bought something that you don't need gauge wheels for like in a york rake or skid shoes on a back blade. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-29 41772
Art. Let me refine the question. I will need an angled blade that I can use to grade dirt and plow snow. Obviously skid shoes on the rear blade are not much good in soft sand and gravel. I have a Gearmore rear blade now. Will I be able to use it as I want to or am I better off getting Kubota’s front blade set-up? ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-08-29 41774
Mark, I've plowed snow without and with draft control on a three point hitch tractor. Go with the front blade. It's still not perfect but a lot better than the alternatives. Different things you might try if you have part of your setup now. Lenghten the top link to roll the blade back on the skids to raise your cutting edge height. I often tell people to shorten it to keep a snowblower out of the stones until they develop a base, works the same going the other way. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-30 41799
Can the blade be turned around and tilted so the blade is almost flat on the ground? I think I've heard of that done on very soft ground. You end up using the blade backwards, but a cutting edge isn't actually needed for very soft ground. My box scraper supports itself in fairly soft stuff by rolling it down so the weight is on the back of the rear cutter. The full cutter width probably supports the weight better than gauge wheels.
I don't know how much the work divides between grading and snow removal. If there's a lot of grading, I'd think about a fairly fancy blade with all the tilts and swings, and especially end plates. I'm guessing that a fancy blade would have an offset, which also would be very useful. I don't know if front blades come with all those features.
I'd like a blade like that for grading but they start getting expensive, so I get by with my box scraper. However, if I had serious ditching or complex grading to do, then I'd need a blade. If snow removal is the main job, a front blade probably works better, although it may have to be swapped back and forth with the loader. I use a 3ph blower, but I couldn't get through winter without my loader.
If the soil is very soft, I wonder if it'd work to do the grading by holding the blade with the hitch and allowing minimal float? That way it wouldn't dig in but there would be gouges and dumps as the tractor wheels follow the ground contour. However, filling major holes and cutting major bumps first and trying to feather the hitch when starting up hills could minimize the problems. That won't make a nicely graded surface, but it might get the dirt cut and moved around. If the soil is soft enough, it should level fairly well with a drag.
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