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Wheel weights vs calcium

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-11          37270

My Kubota B6200 has wheel weights because the previous owner "didn't believe in" calcium. I am surprised how tippy it is, even on a 5 percent slope sideways I get the feeling it's going to tip over. The center of gravity of wheel weights is the axle but the center of gravity of calcium ballast is the bottom of the tire.

I am trying to use my Kubota B6200 on hilly land to clear trees, and am finding it not satisfactory, because I keep being afraid it's going to tip. One time yesterday I felt like it was tipping, so I stopped, put the brakes on, and looked down at the right rear tire and saw that it was a foot off the ground!! One false move and I was going to roll the thing. I had to drop what was in the FEL to save my life!

Tomorrow, I'm getting calcium! I believe in it. I sure hope it keeps the rig from tippin so easily whenever there's anything in the FEL.


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Steve Mahler
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2002-04-12          37336

I am about to do the exact same thing on my B6000 - these older kubotas are so narrow they are not well suited to any uneven ground. I also have come very close to rolling, but I dont have a FEL so it doesnt happen as often. I am worried about the CCL damaging the rims, though. ....

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BillMullens
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2002-04-12          37338

I wouldn't argue that fluid weighted tires give the tractor better stability versus wheel weights, but the center of gravity of a loaded tire is the same as would be with the wheel weights, or close to it, since they recommend that you fill to at least cover the top of the rim. The increase in stablility comes from more weight with the fluid loading.
Bill ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-04-12          37341

Morgan, does your machine have a ROPS? ....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-12          37353

Roy, what are ROPS? Steve, I would think that CaCl would rust the rim inside unless they figured out what rust preventative to use, like the stuff they use in antifreeze. Bill, why do they recommend filling so full to cover the rim? Is it to prevent rusting the rim? I would think that you should only fill it 50% of the way so the weight is all below the axle, any weight above the axle makes it top-heavy again and defeats the whole purpose!! Maybe they can fill it with something REALLY heavy like a big bead of mercury!! Mercury is heavier than lead and is a liquid. It would roll around inside the wheel and not rust anything. Mercury is so heavy, you could probably add 500 pounds of mercury and not even fill the tire half way. Of course, 500 pounds of pure mercury would cost a fortune and if the tire broke open they would comdemn all the land for miles around because it's poisonous. ....

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BillMullens
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2002-04-12          37359

ROPS=Rollover Protection System, usually a roll-bar and seatbelt.
Yes, they recommend covering the rim to help prevent corrosion, even though most people use tubes if they get their tires loaded.
What really gives you stability is the extra weight on the uphill side of the tractor. Where the center of gravity is on each tire/wheel is really insignificant compared to the weight on the opposite end of the axle. In my opinion.
Bill ....

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Morgan
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2002-04-12          37362

Yeah it has a roll bar but still, who needs to roll? I'd rather the thing wasn't so tippy. I think to make it less tippy the front wheels should be farther apart. Those little spindly front wheels is th reason why tractors tip to the side. The front wheels should be the same distance apart as the rear wheels. The only reason they make them closer together is for shorter turning radius. With skidders, which are almost impossible to roll over to the side, the front wheels are the same distance apart as the rear, which means you can't steer them, but to make steering possible they use a completely different method of steering. The front wheels don't turn, the whole rig splits in half and they call that "frame articulation" the middle of the frame turns like a jack-knife. On most John Deer skidders the whole frame can turn 90 degrees in each direction. http://www.johndeere.com/NR/DeereCom/construction/equipment/skidders/540_640.html

I think I shoud trade my Kubota in on a real skidder. ....

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John Mc
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2002-04-14          37418

You don't partially fill a tire with CaCl, since doing so would expose the rim to air when it was not submerged in the Calcium Chloride solution. The mixture of air and CaCl is what really gets the rust going.

If you did want a partial fill, you need something that is not corrosive. Some use anti-freeze, but that has problems, since most anti-freeze is highly toxic to animals, but tastes like candy to them. A small leak, and the family pet ends up dead. (Note: there are some "animal-friendly" anti-freeze mixes available). Some use windshield washer fluid, though their seem to be some concerns with this (some tire centers can not get insurance if they work on tires filled with washer fluid).

One of the better solutions I have seen is a product called "Rim Guard" which is made mainly from the juice of sugar beets. It's non-corrosive (in fact, it inhibits rust), weighs 11#/gal... as much or more than CaCl, and is non-toxic (it actually has an animal food grade certification). If you are interested, contact Glen Daly, the inventor of Rim Guard at 517-351-6470 (or at Rim Guard Inc., P.O. Box 4012, East Lansing, MI 48826)

John Mc
(I have no connection to Rim Guard Inc., just think it's a great product) ....

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Morgan
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2002-04-15          37431

If you're gonna use sugar from sugar beets you might as well just mix your own sugar solution yourself, mix sugar in water and it would be much cheaper than what they probably charge for "rim guard." Just mix sugar in water. I don't know why sugar prevents rust though. Does it?

....

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Corm
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2002-04-15          37434

If you decide to fill your rear tires, in your case where you are doing it to make your tractor more stable on hills, you probably ought not fill them over half way. Any more than that, and you are adding weight on top of the center of the axle, which won't help the stability. Just put your valve stem at 9 or 3 o'clock when you fill them. I use non toxic windshield washer fluid in mine.

Corm ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-15          37436

Let me see if I have this notion straight. If I get back to my exercise program in the morning instead of jawing at you guys, when I lift the barbell, am I only lifting the bottom half of the weights? Or are you saying that the top half of the weight weighs less? ....

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Art White
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2002-04-15          37437

I've watched farmers play with calcium for over 30 years. You worry about rust, I wouldn't as it would take over 20 years given some service to make it happen to the point of destroying a rim. Our dealership when we do install calcium also installs tubes. To fill halfway, no do it all the way to the top. When filling the tires halfway you might get a far rougher ride at road speed untill the calcium or any liquid ballast gets spread out. Calcium still gives the best bang for the dollar on bias tires. Radials are a different story altogether. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-04-15          37439

"Or are you saying that the top half of the weight weighs less?"

The intent is to keep the weight as low as possible...prefferably below the centerline of the axles.

By filling the wheels to the centerline, but no higher, one would be lowering the tractor C of G to the fullest extent possible (by liquid ballasting). Any ballast above the centerline would move the center of gravity slightly upward.

Now, filling to the centerline only does not put maximum ballast into the wheel(s), but does shift the C of G downward.

So, if one was lifting the tractor...Mark would have a point...but we're trying not to roll the machine by maximizing stability. One way to do that is lowering the machine's center of gravity. ....

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Murf
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2002-04-15          37440

Mark, it is not so much the actual amount of weight added, but rather WHERE the weight is added. As an example, if we look at the fluid in the tires as weight, the center point of the weight is naturally lower than the center of the axle (unless you completely filled the tire), whereas steel weights mounted to the rims add weight on the center line of the axle. There was a fellow who tried selling 'pendulum' steel wheel-weights, some people thought they were great, others nearly died because of them. Basically it was a large bearing bolted directly over the center of the rear axle, from this hung a heavy steel weight, as the wheel turned the weight did also, staying constantly at the bottom, the problem was if you were going fast, or downhill, and tried to stop quickly the weights would swing forward and the momentum was too much for some peoples underwear......... Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-15          37446

Here is the way I see the weight thing. We have to look at it two ways and ask the question what we are going to use the weight for:
1) Increased traction: On level ground the extra weight provides more traction.You can put the weight virtually anywhere on the tractor to get the desired effect. In theory if I add 300 lbs of ballast to the tires I will get the same increase in traction as I would if I had my brother-in-law stand on the drawbar. Since the weight is pressing straight down because of the gravity thing it makes little difference where the weight is located.
2) Increased stability: Now it makes a difference where we put the weight. When a tractor tips over one wheel becomes a pivot point or a fulcrum and the other acts as a counter balance. The wheel that is the pivot seems to be the point of contention here, but I think it make little or no difference what that wheel weighs. What matters is what the other wheel weighs, the counter balance wheel, the one that must be lifted in a 90 degree arc for the tractor to land on its side. The weight of the hinge does not slam the door; it is the weight and length of the door, or the “arm” that creates the force of the slam. Picture a catamaran sailing in a strong wind. One hull is in the water and the other hull is up in the air with the sailors leaning over the side to counter balance the boat. Now we drop my brother-in-law into the equation. If we add him to the hull that is in the water does his weight, which is centered at the point of rotation, cause the boat to flip? I don’t think so. But if we add him to the hull that is up in the air we might cause that hull to lower into the water. If your tractor is going to tip, any weight, attached anywhere to the far axle will function to slow down or prevent the rotation because the “center line” of the axle has shifted and the outside edge of the inboard tire is now the neutral centerline of rotation.
....

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Murf
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2002-04-15          37450

Mark, you are very close to the key of it all, but not quite there yet. As you stated, one point (usually a wheel) becomes the fulcrum and the rest of the mass begins to rotate about it. However, the key is that the lower to the ground the weight (mass) involved is, the lower the center of gravity (or COG, in aviation terms) is. The object is to keep the COG below the critical point at which the object starts to rotate about the fulcrum. IE, don't let your brother-in-law sit on top of the rops, make him crouch on the drawbar. Clearer now? You also made a small error or two in the traction thing too but we'll leave that alone for now, LOL. Best of luck. ....

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BillMullens
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2002-04-15          37451

I would argue that the dominant factor is the weight in the "uphill" wheel. As Mark says, any weight added anywhere on that wheel helps keep the tractor from rolling. Where the combined center of gravity of the whole system (i.e. tractor, wheels, ballast, etc) would not be influenced significantly by whether or not the tire ballast is above or below the original center of gravity. In other words, I don't believe that there is any practical difference between wheel weights vs. tire ballasting, using the same amount of weight.
Bill ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-15          37453

Murf, I know I was painting with a broad brush. I know the weight must be centered or shifted over the drive wheels to effect an improvement in traction. I was trying to address the idea that a half filled tire provides more lateral stability than a tire filled to the valve stem. I think that I am hearing you in agreement that a fully filled tire will not create more instability and that once a machine begins to roll, especially as it approaches 45 degrees, that it does not matter if the counterweight is above, below or at the same level as the lug nuts. Kind of like when you hold your splitting maul out at arms length. Pointing the blade up or down and changing the weight from above the line of the handle to below it, does not change the amount of effort it takes to do the task. So whether the weight is in the wheel or on the wheel it should provide the same amount of stability, and resistance to rolling over. ....

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nhNEWT
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2002-04-15          37456

Heres a little more food for thought. If a tire were filled to the top, then the COG of the ballast would be right at the axle, but no higher. So, liquid ballast could never cause the center of gravity of the tractor as a whole to rise above the axle. If the COG of a tractor is below the axle to begin with, then a fully ballested tire whose COG is at the axle would cause the COG of the tractor to rise, but still not above the axle. If the COG of a tractor is above the axle to begin with, then any ballast in the tires can only lower the COG of the tractor.

Going back to Mark's point about the fulcrum, a tractor would become unstable enough to roll once the COG of the tractor becomes located downhill from the fulcrum - in this case the contact point between the downhill tire and the ground. The ballasting works because the torque implied by the uphill tire (mass x distance from pivot)far exceeds the torque implied by the downhill tire as the tractor start to roll.

I would have to agree that a fully ballasted tire does more to increase stability than a partially ballasted tire.

Bear in mind that my experience is more of a theoretical physics based one, than that of actuall tractor experience.....although i did flip a toro riding lawn mower over backwards once..... ....

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Art White
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2002-04-15          37458

Some people sure make things difficult. Central NY is far from being level any way you look at it and the axle is the center. The placement of the weight is critical the same as the pull point if we want to get critical to a point that if it is that critical than anybody cutting it that close ought to buy a different machine to do the job. Now we could get into the extra power that is needed to spin that tire with increasing the mass on the outer diameter of the tire, vs the outer diameter of the weights that could be added and what that will do for the clutch life over 20 years. ....

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Murf
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2002-04-15          37459

Unfortunately several people missed (or I wasn't clear enough) that it is the COG that determines the stability, not the absolute weight. Talking about the center line of the axle is a moot point also since I have never heard of a tractor tipping over on flat ground (other than torque induced axle rolls). The final (and usually fatal) variable in all of this theoretical physics is, as Art pointed out, the ground itself, a good-sized gopher hole on a gentle slope can be far more dangerous than a table-top-smooth steep hillside. Finally, yes weighted wheels will flip you faster than unloaded, since the weight of the downhill whell is automatically on the wrong side of the fulcrum already and the momentum of whell weights moving can be the difference between a near miss and a fatality. BE CAREFUL! Best of luck. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-04-15          37461

Oh Yes...
Let us not forget inertia!

Art White...you live in NYS and you've been around tractors longer then most of us.

Assuming a B7500 or JD4100 with a rear finishing mower (no FEL) and tires loaded to the normal mark (75%).

What, in your opinion...discounting the gopher holes...on terrain around your area...is the safest maximum side slope...as YOUR OPINION ONLY? ....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-15          37462

It makes a big difference what part of the tire the weight is in. If the tractor begins to tip, the downhill tire is the pivot point and any weight on the uphill tire will counterbalance it, that's true. But if all the weight is on the bottom of the uphill tire, it has a lot more effect than if the weight was in the center or the top of the tire. Why? Because when the tractor starts to tip over, the top of the uphill tire crosses over and above the pivot point first. If there is lots of weight at the top of the uphill tire, it pulls the tractor over. But if all the weight is at the bottom of the uphill tire, that part is the last to cross above the pivot point. So the weight at the bottom of the uphill tire is more effective.

If you have a kid on the see saw trying to balance a kid on the other side, he would he better to go to the farthest end of his side. If he stood near the middle it would not raise the other kid up.

Your brother in law needs to go on a diet. ....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-15          37463

I used to live in Central New York. I lived in Pompei, about 10 miles SE of Syracuse. Its all big rolling hills there, lots of steep slopes and no level land anywhere. Now I live in the Adirondacks. Even worse. ....

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Art White
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2002-04-16          37481

Roy, I'm not in the habit of saying what something will do without knowing seeing all. Ate a lot of crow a long time ago and I can still taste the feathers. Morgan as I travel in both areas that you live and have lived I know you are familier with hills. But I am worried over the debate you are in here as to the balance of a tractor as there is far more than meets the eye when talking on a tractors balance. I've seen tractors that are evenly weighted have major differences as far as just navagating a slope. ....

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TomG
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2002-04-16          37485

My impression is that many tractor accidents start out as slides down hills that turn into rollovers. I'm not sure how many rollovers are purely 'tippy tractor' in origin and how many are the end result of a slide. Of course, a rollover always is a CG issue (if it's low enough then it's impossible to turn over). However, there are tippy tractor issues. One is never dump a backhoe bucket on the down hill side. Another is never lift a loaded bucket on a steep hill.

Some slides happen because the slope is too steep and the tires don't have enough traction. Other slides result from soil mechanics. Soil can be unstable due its type or its moisture content. Saturated soil won't hold the weight that's on it and a top layer simply gives way. No tire type, weight or CG on a tractor will prevent such slides. California is known for its mudslides, which occur when soil won't even support its own weight. In this context, I'm not sure if a lot of ballast would make a slide more or less likely to happen.

What is important to note about slides is that extra traction might make them less likely to happen, at least in some circumstances. However, traction is irrelevant once they start. The tires are sliding, so there already is effectively zero traction. Hasn't happened to me (I don't go on soggy slopes) but I understand the usual result of a slide is a wild ride to the bottom. A less fortunate person catches a bit of traction on one tire, the axles counter-rotate and the tractor side rolls half way down.

As often is the case, Art's comments work the mind. I wouldn't have connected a larger circumference of weight rotation with clutch wear, but I sure see it now.
....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-16          37487

A big gopher hole on the downhill side is just as bad as the top of a buried rock on the uphill side. Just a few inches of exposed rock will scare you.

When I have to haul something across a slope, I use my pickup truck. Darn near impossible to tip that thing. ....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-16          37488

In my first post on the top of this page, I said my rear wheel was a foot off the ground and the tractor was ready to tip. What happened was, I had a FEL full of gravel, about 500 pounds of it, and the slope was to the left, the FEL was about a foot off the ground and the tractor tipped until the loader hit ground. I shifted my body weight over towards the lifted tire and it went back to the ground again. But I was already in the spot where I wanted to dump the load anyway so I dumped it and all was well, except I was shook up a bit the whole rest of the day whenever my right wheel was high. ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-16          37490

Art, can you give us your input on the half filled tire theory? Also you said you use CaCl in bias ply tires but you didn't tell us what you use in radials. ....

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Art White
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2002-04-17          37532

Mark I have never only filled a tire half way as it normally will cause a tractor to bounce up and down while going down the road. Many farm tractors will do 25 mph vs on compacts 15 mph. I will not load tires half full period. I have never seen a test on bias tires loaded vs wheel wheights but I have on radial tires. I protest to my customers who do want to load them. You are better for tire wear and life without loading radial tires. The way they are made and meant to flex is restricted by the fluid. That doesn't mean that they won't, just not fast enough for normal travel speeds in the field. ....

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John Mc
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2002-04-25          37813

My 2 cents worth on the subject:

On flat ground, or very modest slopes, more weight = more stable. So more weight will help prevent the START of a rollover.

On a steeper slope, or once you have started to roll over, Once the center of gravity crosses over the pivot point (usually your downhill rear tire), it's all over... you are going to roll. The higher your C of G, the more quickly you reach this point. (draw yourself a rediculosly exaggerated picture of a tractor with an extremely high COG as compared to it's width... you'll see it only takes a few degrees to hit the point of no return). Setting your wheels on their widest possible setting moves the pivot point outward, delaying the point at which your COG crosses over the pivot point.

So my thought is: higher initial stability: more weight = better. Higher ultimate stability: lower COG = better.

John Mc ....

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MOrgan
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2002-04-25          37836

Can you actually set the width of the wheels on some tractors? ....

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TomG
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2002-04-26          37841

Yes, I believe that many wheels are adjustable. I expect that it's pretty obvious if a tractor has them--mine doesn't. My alternative for widening the stance is to reverse the wheels. I haven't done that because my turf tires already track several inches wider than a 5' implement. Fortunately, lateral stability isn't much an issue for me. I can plan my work so I go straight up and down the few sizable hills I have to work. ....

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Bird Senter
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2002-04-26          37850

MOrgan, many of the ag tractors have rear wheels that are adjustable to change the width of the track, and some also have adjustable front ones. On at least some of the two wheel drive tractors, you actually adjust the width of the front axle. ....

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Morgan
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2002-08-17          41327

I finally figured out why my Kubota wants to tip so easily when I'm doing FEL work.....it has no rear counterweights! I never even knew you had to get them when you get a FEL.

Where do I get them? Maybe I can make one out of concrete and let the 3 point lift it. ....

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TomG
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2002-08-17          41333

I just leave a heavy implement on the 3ph--my 6' box scraper usually. ....

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jeff r
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Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2002-08-17          41347

I just leave my 3pt 60inch blade attached, which adds 270 pounds. I]m thinking about the RIM GUARD "beat juice" though and have heard a ton of good things about it. My brother has a 1986 Ford 1710 and calcium chloride ate a rim up for whatever reason. ....

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Wheel weights vs calcium

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Ryan Buie
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3 Andover. Ohio
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2002-08-24          41583

Until recenty, I thought all tractors had adjustable wheels. Our Massey Fergusons adjust by angled slides on the rims and the front axle moves in and out. Our Farmalls adjust by flipping the wheel disc around or flipping the rim around, or both.
My take on the weight issue- if you use calcium, use a tube. As long as you're careful filling (don't get solution on the rim or between the tube and rim) it will take several decades to rust the rim out (some of our tractor tires have been loaded for over thirty years and when new tires were put on two years back, the rims were fine). I think any weight helps for traction, and if stability is an issue, you're using your machine wrong. Be careful and only use the machine for what it's rated, and get a ROPS just in case. ....

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Wheel weights vs calcium

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-25          41604

Me too. It wasn't that long ago that I thought all calcium filled tires used tubes. I still don't know why anybody wouldn't use tubes. Of course when I was a very young kid visiting my farming cousins, I thought the calcium in tires was lime. Couldn't figure why somebody would want powder in their tires or how they got it there. Sounded very strange to me, but kids don't ask questions. I know better now.

One of my uncles had IH tractors in the early 50's, but I don't know if all IH tractors were Farmalls. I seem to recall that the rear axles extended past the wheels. I picked up the idea that the extra length of axle was for adjusting the wheels wider. I also had the impression that the reason wheels were adjusted was to drive between rows to do cultivating rather than for stability. Don't really know though. My cousin may have been talking wrong or me listening wrong, but that's what I remember.

I agree with sticking pretty close to ratings. True enough that educated ballasting often can increase stability in marginal conditions. But, the regular use of excessive ballast weight to allow a tractor to exceed its ratings seems a little like a body-builder on steroids. It works, but there are definite downsides and it may take years before they're discovered.
....

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Wheel weights vs calcium

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Ryan Buie
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3 Andover. Ohio
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2002-08-25          41617

I believe that wheels were adjustable for cultivating, and also the many other jobs required for row crops. You don't want to be running over and compacting the ground where you are going to follow with your planter. Sprayers also need to fit between rows, as well as fertilizer spreaders for mid-season top dressing. Farmers used to use many different row spacings depending on their particular thoughts on crop raising, and tractors were made to accomodate this. Now-a-days, most farmers I know use 30-inch rows, but some old-timers still use anywhere from 28 to 40. ....

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Wheel weights vs calcium

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-26          41644

Thanks Ryan! That's the way I remember it from about 50 years ago. ....

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