Go BottomTire chains for Kubotas
 | Morgan Wright
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2002-04-07 37155
I use my Kubota for pulling trees out of the woods and some of it is uphill. I am in awe of skidders and how much traction they get with those big tires and chains. If I put tire chains on my Kubota will it make much difference? I already have agricultural tread on my tires, is that good enough? Will chains give it more grip? I'm not expecting to turn my kubota into a skidder, of course, and don't expect my little 18 horse motor can compare to the 125 horse of a skidder, but I want more traction.
I already have wheelweights. No calcium, just 150 pound wheelweights on each wheel. Will chains make a difference?
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-08 37164
Also, do people find that putting chains on the front tires does much good (in 4 WD)? ....
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| tractorman100
Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3 North Carolina
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2002-04-08 37184
Do not put chains on the front!!!!. Chains will make a difference with traction, but remember Logskidders use their winches as much as their tires. BE CAREFUL! ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2002-04-08 37188
Without putting too much of a damper on your good intentions Morgan, I would offer the following suggestion. If your 18 horse Kubota can't pull the log, cut it shorter or get a larger machine, if the load has better traction than you do, it should tell you something, like your maybe pushing your luck just a bit..... Regulars here will testify, my messages always have & always will emphasize SAFETY, first last and always.
Pulling a heavy object is the fastest way there is to flip a tractor over, and it happens so fast even the most experienced operators are normally caught off-guard. Log skidders are long and wide for a reason, stability. Compacts are relatively tall & narrow, this can make them very unstable, especially on uneven ground.
Best of luck. ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-08 37193
The guy at the Kubota dealer told me that chains on top of ag tires would be WORSE than the ag tires alone, he said the chains would just fit inside the valleys of the tire treads and thereby nullify the tread...and the chains would not grab anything.
(Morgan now makes mental note...chains on turf tires are good, chains on ag tires are bad).
This makes sense, skidders have chains over regular tires not ag tires. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-08 37194
Ok, two comments here.
#1, I use tire chains on the front of my tractor for light duty work such as snow plowing. I would not, however, put such a load on my drivetrain as to attempt to pull a log that probably weighs more than my tractor.
#2, I rarely hear anyone talk about this, but, dragging with a logging type chain is very dangerous to the tractor operator. If the chain comes loose from the log end while the chain is under tension, guess what will absorb the shotgun like impact of the chain hook. You guessed it! You! Many off-road clubs for trucks and other recreational vehicles have strick rules forbidding bringing a chain on any of their sanctioned outings. Only nylon straps and strech cords are allowed. When I pull with a chain I make sure that the end attached to the object being dragged is no more than two or three feet behind my tractor. Always make sure that the end of the chain is too short to come in contact with your body on the operator station.
Wow, I guess I had a lot to say about that.
Jerry ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-08 37198
Chains don't snap like that. They aren't like rubber bands. If a chain is pulling a log and the chain slips off the log, the chain usually just moves forward a few inches and falls on the ground. I don't see snapping like you describe. It's the reason that nobody makes sling shots out of chains. If you made a sling shot with a chain and tried to use it to shoot a rock, you'd just have a dead chain hanging down your wrist and the rock would fall on your toe.
Try using a comalong and chain to pull something. They don't snap when they slip. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-09 37200
Morgan, I cannot agree with your assessment of chain 'dynamics'. Many off-roaders have been paralyzed and a few have been killed when chains come through the cab of the truck. This is why many sanctioned off-road events strictly forbid even carrying a chain in your vehicle.
Force = mass x velocity. A chain has more mass than a strap. I just don't want to be around when the potential energy (tension) in the chain is converted to kinetic energy (motion). My physics are rusty. Please correct me If I'm wrong.
I would be interested in any comments from any 'physics' type people on this subject.
Jerry
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-09 37201
Some types of chains work OK with ag tires (there's discussion in the archives), but ladder types do fall between the lugs. However, I believe the main advantage of chains of any type is on ice. Reports of their advantage in mud are mixed. Front wheel chains certainly are going to increase traction, but my opinion is that chains on the front should be used only when chains also are on the rear. People have used only front wheel chains for years without problems, but the practice may create excessive wear and tear on the front drive train.
Regarding skidder work with tractors: There is a bunch of discussion in the archives, and a lot of it is safety related. It makes pretty good reading--certainly better than me trying to summarize and reinventing the wheel with a bunch of words. Suffice it to say that logging is one of the most dangerous of occupations. Commercial insurance rates for logging companies are astronomical. Stumper told of seeing a log headed downhill at a good rate of speed and towing a skidder behind it—a very heavy skidder not just a tractor. Still probably better than having the skidder in front. Note that skidders have steel operator’s cadges.
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-09 37202
Skidders are unbelievable. A neighbor of mine has 4 of them and runs a logging business. Just to watch them in action you think of godzilla movies, they go through the woods at 2 miles an hour and knock down everything in their path like they pushing over blades of grass. They knock down trees over a foot in diameter.
I'm not a physics professor either but I think that before you can have snapping like a rubber band, something has to stretch. Like if you were trying to pull a tree down and the chain came loose off the tractor, and the tree snapped back up straight again, the chain would go for a ride in the sky, but in that case the stretch was in the tree not the chain. But logs on the ground don't stretch.
I think the reason they ban chains in SUV mud races is because they can crash through peoples windows and hurt them and ropes can't. That's just a guess. ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-09 37203
"Force = mass x velocity" is not correct. Mass x velocity is momentum. But I don't know how that applies to chains. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-09 37205
Morgan: As far as I know what you say about tow chains is generally correct. Something has to store energy for snap back to occur. Chain itself can't store much energy since it stretches very little. Cable on the other hand stretches and indeed can snap back.
However, there are plenty of stories around about chain flying back, but most stories probably could be attributed to something other than the chain storing energy. For example, I use a length of 1/2" cable with slip hooks for a choker when I drag logs etc.. I hook a chain to one end of the choker. I'm aware that if the chain every let loose at the tractor end, the cable would fling the chain back toward the load. If the cable let loose at the load end, the cable would fly back toward the tractor. If that happened, it would be good if the chain was longer than the cable. I suppose I should shorted up the cable, since it’s way too long for a choker. A better idea might be to just make a chain choker.
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-09 37208
Ok, heres what I'm thinking about now. As Tom mentioned, a chain streches very little, but it does stretch. If I apply 2,000 lbs of force to a chain it may only stretch 1/8 of an inch, but, every bit of that 2,000 lbs of force is stored and can be released in that 1/8 of an inch. So, now I'm thinking about a firearm and how a large force can be applied over a short distance (3 or 4 inches in a pistol) that is sufficient to propel an object (bullet) over a long distance (hundreds of feet) and do significant damage. I am thinking that it is then possible for a large force applied over 1/8 of an inch to propel the chain 20 or thirty feet and strike the operator on a tractor. Not sure if I'm interpreting all these things correctly. What do you think? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-04-09 37209
While I'm glad I inspired such a thought provoking discussion, I suspect the only way you could snap a 'logging' chain with an 18 horse compact would involve a tall cliff or a very big crane.... A rollover, or as Tom mentioned, a log running away with the tractor is the real concern here. As for bulldozing trees up to 1' in diameter with a skidder, I hardly think of that as awesome, wastfull is closer to the mark maybe..... Best of luck. ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-09 37228
Not if the trees are worthless cottonwood or beech or willow and you're looking for valuable wood like oak or maple or black cherry or black walnut. What's a one foot cottonwood good for, besides knocking outta the way to get to the hard maple that you can sell for hard cash for making million dollar baseball bats for Barry Bonds to hit homers with? ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-09 37229
Mrwurm, the only way to see what would happen with a "stretched" logging chain is to experiment. But if you can't experiment listen to the following argument...a chain doesn't strech any more than an iron rod. If a solid iron rod is used to haul a log behind you and the rod breaks, do you think the rod is going to snap up and hit the tractor? Of course not. A chain is just a bunch of iron rods all curly Q on each other. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-09 37230
Interesting point. The next time I get together with my mechanical engineering friends I will pose this question. They live for the physics stuff.
Jerry
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| Steve C in WA
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2002-04-09 37232
Hi, guys. A great discussion about those chains. Anyone that answered "the chain stretches and stores energy" is correct. Imagine a chain made out of coat hangers. It doesn't take much force to stretch the chain, and when you let it go...whamo! The chain you're using to drag logs or haul broken tractors works the same way, but it simply requires more force to stretch it, which stores energy. If a chain breaks suddenly, but doesn't spring back, it just hasn't been pulled hard enough to stretch elastically. Lots of boring stuff goes into this such as metallurgy and the design (shape) of each link. Bottom line: the chain will bite back under the right circumstances. Now, then, please give me some advice on how to convince my wife that a new BX-2200 is an absolute necessity. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-10 37238
Yes, I was probably using concepts in a loose manner. Well, I'm too far from basic physics to do anything else. I believe it's true that if there's any stretching, then the entire load is stored as energy, provided the chain is elastic. If it doesn't return to it's original length, then energy isn't stored.
Another question might be how the energy is transferred back into velocity. I don't know if the same energy transferred over a short distance to mass at rest will produce the same velocity as it would if applied over a greater distance. One thing that seems pretty certain though is that chain weighs a lot compared to cable. A lot of energy would be dissipated by the chain accelerating itself.
This physics stuff is interesting to me. However, from a practical perspective, what I believe is true is that broken chain tends to flop rather than fly. I’ve never broken any myself though and I’d just as soon not have the experience.
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| Morgan Wright
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-04-10 37242
Dear Mrs C in Washington,
Your husband needs a new Kubota BX-2200. If you want your marriage to last forever you should buy him one. He bought you that nice shiny diamond ring when you got married, now it's your turn to caugh it up. Dig deep and don't be cheap, Mrs C. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Did YOU have to buy HIM a $6,000 diamond ring when you got married? No! So now's your chance to show him how much you love him.
HE'S WORTH IT!! ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-10 37243
As for the chain, there is more elastic energy stored in the tractor than the chain. Chains don't really stretch at all, not anywhere near as much as coat hangers chains or whatever, so forget that. Forget metallurgy and whatever, chains just don't stretch. But if you are pulling with a tractor as hard as the tractor goes and the log is stuck and you are pulling with 3,000 pounds of force to get it unstuck, then there are elastic things going on in the rubber tires and other forces in the drive train, so when the chain breaks the tractor lurches forward and yanks the chain with it.
Just how much, I don't know, but it ain't no rubber band. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-04-10 37249
Morgan, I think you missed a rather interesting discussion on this subject last year. When it came up again I went back into it, this time with a little more vigour. I called up an old friend and my former Physics Prof. his answer surprised me. Yes chains can store VAST amounts of kinetic energy. I must at this stage point out that I was completely wrong in my argument that the energy stored would be a) minimal, and b)disipated VERY quickly. As it turns out, and to the detriment of such users, the higher tensile chains (Grade 70 or Transport Grade) for example are the worst.
Heres the way it works, each link is an oval shape and not a straight peice of rod (which is where my logic 'went south') therefore under extreme load (IE approaching the breaking point) each link starts to elongate or stretch out, eventually something breaks releasing the load, at this point (since it is high tensile steel) each link trys to return to it's ORIGINAL size, FAST. If the break is near the end of a long chain the amount of energy released can be tremendous. We did some basic calc's and the results were scary. A 25' long 3/8" G70 chain could produce enough energy to do some serious damage to something far harder than even my head. He also pointed out that cheap 'proof coil' or even Grade 30 chain is made of MUCH softer steel, therefore it will merely bend and distort, it doesn't have the same 'elasticity' and therefore would react MUCH differently. It could still be a hazard, but not nearly as bad.
All the same, BE CAREFUL........ Best of luck. ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-10 37256
Your physics professor is probably a nice guy, and I don't mean to offend him by saying this, but he doesn't know anything about chains. He needs to work in forestry for a few days and look around.
Besides, you can't store kinetic energy. If it's stored, it's potential energy, by definition. No physics professor would EVER make that mistake!! Your physics professor sounds like he's not a physics professor.
The energy stored in a chain that's "stretched" by 1/8 inch is miniscule. Here's why: We want to know the velocity of the chain after it snaps...the chain rebounds 1/8 inch (you said), which takes a tiny fraction of a second, during which the chain accelerates. Force = mass X acceleration, which means that the acceleration of the chain is equal to the force divided by the mass of the chain (and only for a tiny fraction of a second). The chain has lots of mass and only a tiny fraction of a second to accelerate. The velocity of the chain is the acceleration multiplied by the time during which it accelerated, which is diddley, so the velocity of the chain is doodley squat.
Once again, I don't mean to offend your "virtual" internet physics professor.
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-10 37267
Here are some experiments you can do;
1. Make a slingshot, only instead of using a rubber band for the sling, use a chain instead. See if you can kill a bird with it.
2. Make a wristwatch, only instead of using a coiled mainspring to store the energy, use a chain. See if it tells time.
3. Make a skeet shooter for tossing clay pidgeons in the air. Instead of a coiled spring, use a G70 chain (whatever that is). Pull back really hard on the chain to make all those ovals into looooong ovals. See how far the clay pigeons fly with your rig. "The results were scary" means the clay pidgeon will not even fly out of the arm, but will just sit there and just make pigeon poop on your wrist. That's scary. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-11 37271
Theory and application may have diverged here. I believe the physics answer was that chain stores energy. The applied question seems to be whether chain flies around when it breaks. I think the answer may be to a different question, but the answer is interesting in it’s own right. There seems to be an assumption that broken chain will fly around if the chain stores energy. Far as I know, chain doesn't tend to fly around if it breaks. However, wire that is made by pulling rod through progressively smaller dies is done in trenches because it is lethal when it breaks, and it does. Undoubtedly they both contain energy.
For the theoretical part, I think that when ignoring parasitic losses such as heat, energy equal to a total load is stored if a medium like wire or chain stretches at all. The energy may be released in total if the medium is completely elastic. If it moves, work is done and energy is expended whenever work is done. Energy always has to go somewhere.
The rest of the theory here is speculation and certainly not expert opinion. Presumably chain links both elongate and narrow under load. When a load is released, each link becomes both shorter and wider. The question then is what is the net force vector? Each link has its own set of vectors, and I imagine that many of the individual vectors tend to cancel. If true, the chain could contain a lot of energy that would be released if the chain broke, but the chain may move very little. Maybe theory and application comes together here.
Myself, I'm waiting for a new length of grade-70 chain to stretch, and without elasticity. It turns out that some new made in China grab hooks I bought won't rotate freely around links. I believe the steel is slightly softer than N.A. steel, so the hooks are made slightly larger to meet N.A. grade-70 specs and the clevis clearances are smaller. I think that maybe the hooks will work properly if the chain stretches a bit.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-04-11 37293
Morgan, with all due respect, rather than jumping to defend your position, stop and analyze what my message says carefully, then respond THOUGHTFULLY, please. First, yes I said (typed) 'kinetic', 'potential' while not wrong can also refer to thermal energy, I agree that would certainly not create much motion when released. Secondly, while your sling shot experiment sounds like fun, I think I would have a little problem pulling back hard enough to snap a 3/8" logging chain, how about you? ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-11 37300
The best experiment would be to use a come-along to put about 2000 pounds of force on a chain and see what happens. One end of the chain will attach to something which is extremely hard and non-elastic and which will not add any energy to the system, like a large rock with a steel hook sticking out of it, and at the other end is the come-along to put tension on the chain. Have the thing break at the end away from the rock, to see if the chain snaps back towards the rock.
_____
!....!
!....!
!rock!------------------------------------X--come-along
!....!
!....!
The chain will be designed to break at X ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-11 37301
My guess is, it will snap about 2 feet towards the rock and fall on the ground, and the come-along will fly about 20 feet:
_____
!....!
!....!
!rock!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ X --come-along--->
!....!
!....!
....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-11 37302
That drawing didn't come out right!! ....
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| Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-11 37306
A thought from an outsider to this obviously intense group of contributors.
Whether there's a legitimate argument on energy storage in a chain (and i agree with Morgan Wright) isn't the only dynamic at work. If a chain has been observed to snap back toward a tractor after it breaks at the log end, then the tractor was working mighty hard and had good traction. The immediate response of the tractor will be to jerk forward, no longer being restrained by the chain/load. The freed chain comes along with the accelerated tractor, and then continues on its merry way toward the operator when he slows/stops, which is the immediate reaction of the operator.
I think SUV accidents with chains probably occur following the same mechanism - it isn't a function of elasticity of chain.
Tractorman100 gave the best advice: don't tackle a pull with undersized machinery; use a cable winch (they are available for compacts' 3PH from Farmi). Trying to pull a log uphill (don't even think about pulling down) with the tractor in motion is prone to slipping and sliding around and putting you and your equipment in jeopardy.
jim ....
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| Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2002-04-12 37315
Good advice all around Jim. Thanks!! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-12 37322
I've never seen transport or alloy chain break. I have broken proof or high-test chain and it just flopped on the ground. If anybody has seen or heard a firsthand story about grade-70 or 80 chain snapping and flying with considerable velocity, it would be real good to hear it. I might have some unsafe ideas about how to use it.
Practically speaking, I don't think there's a great chance of most compacts breaking new 5/16th grade-70 transport chain. It has a working load rating of 4,700 lbs. Most people could dangle their tractors from it. However, grade-80 alloy chain would be required for overhead lifting such as tractor dangling. It gives a 5,100-lbs. working load rating in 5/16th. Chain does wear, which reduces load ratings. There are permissible wear charts available.
Compacts can lift weight where shock loads could snap chain if something was dropped. However, most loads are lifted by hydraulics that have safety relief valves. Relief valves are usually adjusted under 4,000 lbs., which are going to protect grade-70 chain in most circumstances.
Don't know, guess I'm feeling a little cranky about this subject. I wanted to learn something about the physics of it irrespective of how it works on the back of a tractor. I ended up reading about chain on the back of tractors in the abstract. So, I'll start taking about chain on the back of tractors and maybe I'll learn something.
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-12 37326
Tom, what concerns me about using a chian is not the chain breaking, which I agree is unlikely. My concern has been the common situation when the grab hook on the chain is not in the right position to maintain its grip on the chain. IE, you start pulling and the hook comes loose. I don't think I'll debate the physics of this as it seems to generate some hostility. I will simply be cautious and aware and try to keep myself safe when using a chain.
Jerry ....
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| Morgan Wright
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2002-04-12 37355
Chains are incredibly strong. I saw a tug boat pull a 200 foot barge that must have weighed over 20,000 tons with a single chain. I had a guy get a 27,000 pound dump truck (empty weight) get stuck in the mud, and watched as another dump druck pulled him out with one 1/2 inch chain. Chains are very strong, you almost never see them break. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-13 37367
The very first time I used a grab hook, I tried to stick the point into a link. Didn't seem very secure but worked anyway. That's a duh. It was fortunate I was dragging something rather then lifting. My practices are a little better these days and must have improved fast since I'm still here to tell about it.
Grab hooks are pretty well designed, so links stay in the slot if there's any sort of load. Weight of the chain itself is enough. However, grab hooks under load take a particular angle to the chain. My concern with the made in China hooks that I mentioned. The hook won’t freely rotate around new chain links and may not take the right angle under load.
The main risk of chain coming out of a grab hook is if they are slacked. Slacking can happen if a tied down load shifts, a trailer hitch fails or a skidded load overtakes the tractor.
Trouble is that chain and hooks used as tie downs never can be tightened enough to keep loads from shifting. Load binders are the solution. I often use transport binders to secure loads on top of forklift or loader bucket. I have some safety grab hooks for the overtaking problem. The hooks are required for some transport operation in Canada but I think they are uncommon in the U.S.
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