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dcsmith
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23 ohio
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2002-04-07          37130

My wife has agreed in principle to allow me to purchase a new B7500. It will replace my 29 year old L175. My grass has wet areas. Will industrial tires tear up the grass? I think I could use the extra traction, but how bad are they on turf? Thanks DCSmith

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Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-04-07          37132

You've really opened a can of worms here dcs.

My opinion... the R4's are not too bad on turf in most situations.
I have found, even with turf tires, that any damage that does
occur results from the front tires. I'm gonna see if I can get
R4's on the back and a properly sized turf tire on the front
when I get my new tractor. I know, sounds crazy, but I've
always been a little off the beaten path.
Jerry
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-07          37133

There's quite a bit of discussion in the archives. I think a fair summary is that industrials are harder on turf than turfs, but some people use industrials OK. It's hard to generalize because soil type and wetness make a big difference. In addition, quite a bit of the success of operating on turf depends on total weight of the tractor, sharpness of turns and operation in 2 or 4 WD.

The front wheels of my 3,000 lbs. tractor with turfs (not including a 3ph implement) will tear turf in sharp turns except when the ground is very dry. If I mowed with the tractor, I'd probably do so in 2wd and wait for dry weather.

It's a little hard to say without trying it, but there's a chance that industrials would be OK, especially if maneuvering on the wet places can be avoided and mowing can be done when it's fairly dry. Alternatively, my tractor is a bit traction challenged with its turfs when using a 6' box scraper. However, I am able to manage the traction problems by cutting at slower speeds and taking smaller bites. Most times it will drag full boxes of gravel, and I can put weight in the loader for extra traction if needed. Turfs are nicer than industrials for roading a tractor for any distance.

I've heard of barred turf tires, but I haven't seen them or know if they're easier on turf than industrials and have more traction than turfs. I would take care with the issue. Wives and tracks in the lawn can become an issue that lasts longer a tractor.
....

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chim
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 31 SE PA
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2002-04-07          37139

I just spent a few weeks agonizing over a number of things before deciding on the tractor (B7500/#302FEL/R4), and finally went with the R4's. Still need to make final decision on the 3PH mower and ballast. The soil around me is fairly firm unless waterlogged - there is a small stream that runs through the front of the property, and a couple times a year, it comes over the banks and deposits a new layer of some poor farmer's topsoil at my place. When this happens during mowing season, I almost always get on it before I should. Patience was never one of my strong points. For the first couple of years after we built, I had a Cub 154 Lowboy with turf tires (2WD), and for the last 7 or 8 years, have been using a Ford 1210 with Ag tires (4WD). In the softened area near the creek, both tractors did about the same amount of marking. At certain times on the "normal" part of the lawn, both the Ag and Turfs I used pressed the grass down so that the mower wouldn't lift it back up for a proper cut, and the grass would stand up a day or so later. This could have been from letting the grass get too tall before mowing, although the grass seems to have a different consistency at different times in the season.

There are only a couple places I use 4WD when mowing, mostly at my Mom-in-law's place on some hills. The Ag tires have worked fine, with the exception of making tight turns in 4WD. Even when the ground is dry, the ribs have a tendency to toss up small tufts of grass, kinda like when I tried playing golf.

Right now, it looks like it will be Tuesday before using the 7500 to mow for the first time, and I'll let you know how things go. Just running around playing with the loader, it looks like the R4's don't mash the grass down too badly...............chim ....

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bigbukhntr
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 56 flower mound, texas
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2002-04-07          37144

did the dealer charge any extra to change the tires to R4's?
i want the same setup on a L3010 i am pretty seriously considering....the tractor has ag tires at the moment.. ....

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chim
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 31 SE PA
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2002-04-07          37146

There is a difference in price between Ag and R4, but I don't know how much. I had decided on the R4's, and didn't ask the dealer for hard numbers for comparison. He said there was "a couple hundred bucks" difference......chim ....

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Captain B
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 53 West central New Hampshire
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2002-04-07          37159

I just took delivery on a John Deere 990 with R-4's. I have had a JD 850 with turfs for seven years. Both are really outstanding machines. Just finished a full day of brush hogging a fairly steep hill with 10' poplars and thick pucker brush in New Hampshire. Not too many things more fun and visibly rewarding--you can keep your spring skiing.
Even though we have had almost no snow this winter, the R-4's left pretty obvious tread prints on the dirt access roads but no place else. Turfs would also. I spent a full day in wet fields and I didn't tear things up any where near as much as I expected.
My take on R-4's: (1) generally twice the plys over ags or turfs so they're good to have to avoid punctures if you are working in the woods or fields with hidden stumps as I was today, (2) they do tear up things up more than turfs but not nearly as much as ags, (3) traction is just fine if you have loaded tires or wheel weights. In fact, I've never even had any problems with my loaded turfs except a couple times when the snow was so deep my 850 just bottomed out in crusted stuff.
Bottom line--R-4's are a great compromise where you want better durability and traction than turfs, aren't too price sensitive and don't have a true agricultural application. ....

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dcsmith
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23 ohio
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2002-04-08          37161

I believe the R-4's were $200 more than turfs. They also have a "Bar Tread" for the same money. These look somewhat like a lawn and garden tractor tire. They certainly are somewhere in between R-4 and turf(rear tires only). That may be the route. They would eliminate having chains to plow snow. That is if it snows next year. Thanks for all your input. DCSmith ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-04-08          37171

I think Captain B hit the nail on the head with the phrase "true agricultural application". That is all R-1 tires are good for. The treads are designed to be self-cleaning, and will in practice push material away from the tire while it digs for more traction. If you spin R-1 tires in a barn with a good layer of manure on the floor they will dig and squeegee their way down to the concrete and find the traction to do the job. They also do a marvelous job on wet compactable soils such as pasturelands and meadows and are top notch for pulling a plow or a harrow through such environments.
But I wonder if most compact tractors have sufficient weight to allow R-1 tires to imprint and therefore achieve optimal traction in most types of soil. The old John Deere B’s and Case tractors of my childhood did not tear up the lawn when they drove over it; they just left deep cleat marks in the grass. The combination of tremendous weight, low relative horsepower and huge wheels made it very difficult to spin the tires.
NFL teams understand the principles of traction well and maybe we can learn from them. Early in the season they wear long cleats, especially on the line where those huge bodies can drive the cleats into the turf and get traction. Later in the season when the ground begins to freeze the cleats get shorter and by the end of the season, when most outdoor stadiums are frozen, they are wearing their turf tires (I am mixing my metaphors here).
I am sure that if I could follow a real tractor around with my 4100, I would find that the bigger machine would imprint the Ag tires in places where my little machine would barely leave a trace. And when the lugs of my tires are not fully engaged by the soil they are more likely to spin and tear things up when I do lose traction or push against an obstacle. So if I am going to ride on top of most types of soil, rather than engaged in the soil, I might as well get a tire that puts the most rubber on the ground.
Maybe it is good to recall that our compact tractors with aggressive R-1 tires were invented in the Far East where flooded fields and rice paddies are the order of the day. A big American tractor would sink to its axles in that environment; I’ve seen it happen. On the other hand, our compacts with less aggressive tires would not develop the required traction in the flooded field situation. So if you are operating in water-saturated soils, a compact tractor with R-1 tires is probably damn near perfect. But firmer and dryer soils (and lawns) require totally different tread designs. That’s my two cents, what do you guys out there in cyberspace think?
....

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bigbukhntr
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 56 flower mound, texas
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2002-04-09          37211

i checked with 4 different dealers on the R4 vs. R1 tire....all 4 said $650-750 upgrade to go to R4's...is this consistent with anyone else's findings? this was on a 3010 by the way ....

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chim
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 31 SE PA
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2002-04-10          37237

Tonight, after filling the rear tires on the B7500 about halfway with antifreeze/water mix, I took it for a romp in the rain to move a utility trailer. After reparking the trailer, I headed for a grassy hill to see just how the R4's would do. It drizzled/rained today, and a light rain was falling. I ran the tractor up, down, sideways and cut the wheels hard several times. This was without the loader or any attachments on the tractor except for the loader subframe. There was only one small set of tracks where the tires cut into the grass on a hard turn. Sure am glad I decided on the R4's for this tractor. I have used the Ford 1210 with Ag tires in the same area and made worse marks with dryer conditions without trying to..............chim ....

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Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-11          37310

Mark: I can't agree entirely with your assessment of R-1's. I ran R1's on a 755, 955, and 1070, before I went with R4's on a 4700. Didn't have the R4 option when i bought the previous three, so had to go with the best traction available because i was mowing trails on hillsides. But I also mowed 7 to 11 acres of grass with a JD270 finish using those tractors with R1's. Yeah I dug up my share of grass, but with some awareness of turns and ground moisture, I managed nicely and have a pretty nice place. Additionally, when doing FEL work, etc, I managed frequently to fill up the treads with heavy clay subsoil, which would make them look and act like draggsters' slicks. The only self-cleaning functionality I could create was to get to level ground and race off in range c to spin the dirt off.
The R4's actually can do their share of turf damage too -- the extreme turn angle of the 4700's front end just begs to push those treads thru the grass.
One other comment: I went thru 1-1/2 seasons with the 4700 and wondered why those R4's let me slide sideways down a hill when mowing with a 72" rear finish mower (800#)-- well, I think my problem was the air pressure. The unit was delivered with 28# back, 40# front. With such high pressure in the rears, they stand up on just the very center of the tread; the rest of each chevron (?) then formed a nice arching slide outward. With some input from this board (I think the context was "achieving a better ride"), i dropped the pressure to get a slight tire belly, and this put all the chevron's edges and shoulders down on the ground where i believe they belong. Had to drop the fronts to 12# to get a belly even with a FEL mounted loaded and raised. Am waiting for some grass to grow to see the affect.
Took a gauge to the dealer and checked several units on the lot -- all tires were in the 25-30# rear, 35-40# front.
huh? jim. ....

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Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-11          37311

the pressure i went to on the 4700's rear R4's to get a little belly was 5# !!! that's with 440 lbs of rear wheel weights and 210# of driver/deadwood in the seat.
jim ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-12          37316

Sort of gives a new meaning to high-pressure sales. I run pressures within the pressure/load table for my rear turf tires and only a bit off the chart for the fronts. The tractor went to the dealer for repair having nothing to do with tires and came back with pressures that pegged my 20-lbs. gauge. I don't understand why either.

The lower end of the table for my front tires is 8# and 12# rear. I don't know if the lower end the tables should be interpreted as a minimum safe pressure or if it just that manufacturers figure bottom of the chart is the weight of an unloaded tractor. I sort of wonder about 5#'s and whether there's a safety issue here, but then I wondered about 8#'s when I first got a tractor.

R4's are rigid compared to other types and it does sound like a normal profile R4 may not give good traction on side-hills. Due to their rigidity, it probably takes very low pressures to change the tire profile on a fairly light tractor.
....

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chim
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 31 SE PA
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2002-04-12          37317

I suspect one of the reasons for maintaining a minimum pressure is to keep the tires from slipping on the rim on a hard pull, or breaking the bead on a hard turn / sidehill condition............chim ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-04-12          37329

Jim...R1's self clean only when moving forward. In reverse, like when backing out of the pile doing loader work, they do just as you describe, compact material in the treads. Just another example of their limited usfulness. Keep in mind my frame of reference is a 1500 pound tractor. Your 4700 weighs 2000 pounds more than my 4100. ....

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Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-12          37331

Mark: my experience has been different (why would we have this site if everyone saw it the same?)
The tires fill up when going forward, not backward -- i'm pushing the bucket into a pile, the wheels start spinning and they clog up. The tractor isn't experiencing any resistance going backward, so it isn't digging in the way it does when attacking the dirt.
I think my biggest problem is the disappointment i have with R4's -- it's the old problem of a compromise answer not really doing the best job for either of two dissimilar functions (e.g. mowing vs grunt-work).
jim ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-04-12          37332

You must have very gooey soil! Also if you are not following the current thread on two bottom plows, have a look. Interesting comments on the use of R1's and plowing and R4's slipping under field conditions. I guess it all comes down the soil conditions. My soil is so sandy and loose that when it gets really dry in the summer I can drive my open hand into the ground nearly to my elbow. My post hole digger works just like a blender.... no hole just mixed up soil. R1's are completely useless under these conditions. ....

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Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-12          37335

you got that right!! the soil is clay almost like the modeling type. It is perpetually wet, and so dense that water doesn't percolate thru. it's primarily on hillsides; on top and in valleys the loam is more workable but still thick. I just acquired a PHD and i expect the soil to come out of the hole like swarf on a drill bit going thru soft metal. When the clay is at the surface, it is usually of two consistencies: either dry/rock hard or wet/slimey-slippery.
jim ....

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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-04-12          37343

Jim- I went through the same tire pressure learning curve as you. I figured the dealer would know better than me, so I just left the tires alone for the first mowing season (on my NH TC29 - R4's); the rears had almost 30 psi in them. Dropping the pressure to 15 psi improved traction considerably. I'm anxious to see how they do plowing this spring, if it ever dries up. We always have the 8N with ags to fall back on.
Now that you have a PHD should we call you Dr. Jim? :)
Bill ....

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Jim on Timberridge
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Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-04-12          37347

Yeah, Bill...
My "field" is Dirtology.
Dr jim

PS the dealer told me the high tire pressures were what came in with the units from JD.
the manual says 26F/45R for "Loaded Tire" whatever that means. TomG is right about the R4 especially the big rears being stiff, and with 25#, they are like a rock. Maybe JD figures everyone is going to hook up a backhoe...
....

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dcsmith
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23 ohio
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2002-04-12          37354

Whats funny is I really wanted to know if it was worth it on my grass to go with the R-4's. I work in all kinds of weather and conditions(mowing, box grading, and filling tree spade holes with a 3-point bucket). I think I will take the "Bar Turfs". Thanks again for all your input. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-13          37368

Regarding whether R1's clog going forward or in reverse: I wonder if it depends on whether and how the wheels have been reversed?

I believe R1's are directional and if they're reversed by turning the wheel around and putting it back on the same side, then the tire tread is backwards. I've also heard that some people like them backwards.
....

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James D
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2002-04-16          37494

Interesting thread. I'm considering a move from ag to industrial tires.

A note about air pressure: Air pressure in tires from the dealer are almost always not changed from the "shipping" air pressure that is used for delivery from the factory for units that arrive assembled. This shipping pressure has to due with hauling stability and nothing to do with how the air pressure should be set for actual use.

JDD ....

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Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 962
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2002-04-16          37503

James D, I think you're right about the shipping pressure. And although I've never seen it mentioned in a tractor owner's manual, I recently bought a new Sears lawn tractor (riding mower) and the manual says "The tires on your tractor were overinflated at the factory for shipping purposes. Correct tire pressure is important for best cutting performance. Reduce tire pressure to PSI shown in "PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS" section of this manual." ....

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Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2002-04-16          37504

James D, I think you're right about the shipping pressure. And although I've never seen it mentioned in a tractor owner's manual, I recently bought a new Sears lawn tractor (riding mower) and the manual says "The tires on your tractor were overinflated at the factory for shipping purposes. Correct tire pressure is important for best cutting performance. Reduce tire pressure to PSI shown in "PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS" section of this manual." ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-04-16          37514

"Air pressure in tires from the dealer are almost always not changed from the "shipping" air pressure that is used for delivery from the factory for units that arrive assembled. This shipping pressure has to due with hauling stability and nothing to do with how the air pressure should be set for actual use."

Also, tires installed on a vehicle tend to get flat spots if setting in one position for extended periods. Unless the vehicle can be put on stands, the easiest way to minimze flat spots is over inflation.

This is also a good idea for the winter storage of our machines.
....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-04-16          37516

Jim on Timberridge, there is a difference in tire pressure for loaded tires than unloaded tires because if they are loaded 80% of the way with calcium, leaving air for expansion in only 20% of the volume, then when the temperature rises in the summer it will raise the tire pressure a lot more than if the tire were not loaded, because that little volume of air has to account for all the expansion of the calcium in the summer.

That's the reason they never load tires 100% of the way with calcium. What if you loaded the tires in the spring or fall (or worse, the winter), 100% of the way. What would happen in the summer when the calcium expanded from the temperature, and there is no air to take the compression? Water (calcium) doesn't compress, so in the summer the tires would blow out faster than Old Faithful. If they are loaded 80% the tire pressure would be a lot higher in the summer than if they were not loaded, so you adjust the pressure accordingly when the tires are loaded.

I think that's right. Not sure. ....

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chim
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 31 SE PA
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2002-04-16          37522

First of all, I'm no rocket scientist. Let's take a couple things into consideration. With regard to 100% liquid fill, tires need to deflect when you hit a bump. Two things could happen if they didn't - they'd blow, or they'd ride like solid steel wheels. The tire has to bend in where it hits the rock. There would seem to be more of a pressure spike on an 80% liquid-filled tire, because the air space is compressed at a greater percentage than an air-filled tire for a given rock. Hopefully, the smarter guys telling us to use a certain fill ratio have considered that stuff.

Secondly, unless you get the liquid inside the tire to boil off into steam, the only meaningful expansion taking place inside the tire is the trapped air. Take a pot full of cold water, and heat it to 180°. Did you end up with 2 pots of water. Nope. If the tire has, for example, 80% liquid and 20% air, and the liquid doesn't expand, that would lead me to believe the air needs only 20% of the whole tire volume to act like a straight air-filled tire.............chim ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-17          37535

My Deere owners manual describes how to load the tires. They say rotate the valve stem to its highest point and fill to that level. FYI ....

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Jim on Timberridge
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2002-04-17          37552

Firstly, I interpret the JD manual's reference to "loaded tire" to mean when the tractor has maximum weight on the tires from attachments etc, not when the tires have fluid, which I would refer to as "filled tires".
The manual's inflation specs on loaded tires are in sync with marking on the tires indicating max tire pressure allowable, which is intended I think to carrying max load. The comments received that reference the factory's preference to ship with high pressure, and to prevent flat spots make a lot of sense. And I never thought of Roy Jackson's point about keeping the tires at high pressure during winter storage to avoid flat spots -- i like it!
But, really, as i've alluded to in other strings, sometimes it just amazes me how little on the ball some dealers seem to be -- why they don't cover tire pressure with the purchaser during an operational walk-thru is beyond me. jim. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-04-17          37555

"And I never thought of Roy Jackson's point about keeping the tires at high pressure during winter storage to avoid flat spots..."

I used to own a Porsche (and, over the years..several other sports cars) which was stored every winter. The tires were good performers....real sticky in the curves and sweepers.

The problem with performance tires is that they are a softer compound. They wear faster then a standard tire you'd put on your minivan.
Also, they develop flat spots quicker when sitting.
Now, if I didn't overinflate, it was like driving on square tires for the first hundred miles or so. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-04-17          37568

I have mentioned this before but my tractor came from a landscaper. He originally had R4s but found that he was digging up the customers lawns. He bought turf tires for the front only. I never seem to dig with the fronts even on soft lawn. Again this may relate to the weight of the tractor.
I mowed today and was wondering why the rear R4s were heading down hill. I will check the pressure, thanks.
No tire is self cleaning in wet clay of Kentucky. Ones feet grow as you walk and so do your tires as you roll. You roll onto the forest leaves and they just add to the tire mass.
Maybe PAM on the tires or mold release agent? ....

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John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-04-25          37810

Chim - I don't think an 80% filled tire will act just like an air filled one as far as compression goes. If you imagine hitting something that compresses your tire 10% (an exaggerated example, I know): In an ir filled tire, the air pressure goes up 10% (compressed to 90% of original volume). In an 80% liquid filled tire, if you deform/compress the tire 10%, you have cut the 20% air volume in half, and doubled the air pressure. In practice, you probably wouldn't compress it this far, youd just get a bumpier ride.

John Mc ....

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SteveC n Ky
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2002-05-16          38699

Hi, Bgbukhntr, I just bought a 3010 and the dealer charged me 600 extra for the R4 tires. ....

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bigbukhntr
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 56 flower mound, texas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2002-05-17          38722

hey SteveC, thanks for the info...i ended up paying $650 extra, oh well, so i guess they got to me on that one, but i am extremely pleased with the tractor...by the way, they put Goodyear tires on it, is that what u got?..Again, my first new tractor and i couldnt be happier with it!! ....

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