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 | Rich Swartz
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2000-11-15 21524
I have a b8200 and when I check the oil level it keeps getting higher.I have changed the fuel pump but that did not stop it.I cannot see any water in the oil.Is there a way to check if it is hydraulic fluid?
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| MikeC
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2000-11-15 21527
Is it possible that you have leaky injectors? ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-11-15 21537
I don't know if there is any easy way to check if hydraulic fluid or diesel fuel is getting mixed in with the oil, but I assume that an oil analysis will tell you in short order what is happening. Have you thought about getting an analysis done? I've heard that that heavy equipment companies do this a lot. Maybe you could start by asking a local diesel shop to recommend someone local. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2000-11-17 21571
Rich, it is not likely to be Hyd. fluid since the two systems are not close enough anywhere to allow intermingling, even if a gasket, etc. let go, besides, with the pressure in the Hyd. system even a leak in the return line would empty the system pretty fast. I would tend to think it is diesel finding it's way in, probably from a bad injector 'o-ring' or possibly a return line (if you have internal style injectors, that is, inside the rocker cover) has worn through from vibration and is now leaking into the oil gallery in the top of the head. If the level is going up very much a couple of standard paper paint viscosity cups (any auto supply house that sells auto. paint will have them) will tell you a lot. The diesel will quickly lower the viscosity of your oil, pour a controlled amount (fill the cup) of new oil (same type & weight as you use in your machine) through one, and time it, then pour the same amount of your used oil through another, the difference in time is in direct relation to the difference in viscosity. Also try pouring out a (clean, clear) glass jar full of your oil and letting it stand, absolutely undisturbed, for a few days somewhere warm (room temperature is fine) and see if any seperation occurs, hydraulic fluid will normally seperate from used moter oil over a few days. Best of Luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2000-11-18 21584
Murf: Those are two pretty good tests. You said 'hydraulic fluid' rather than 'hydraulic oil,' but I assume you mean what ever goes in tractor hydraulic systems rather than brake fluid. It's good to know that used engine and hydraulic oils separate. I would have guessed that petro engine and hydraulic oils have much the same base and would mix rather than separate. Perhaps mutil-grade additives and detergents make the difference. It's always good to learn something new.
Your assessment seems logical. If not coolant, than fuel seems the likely cause. However, there should be a path for hydraulic oil from the pump chamber, through the pump housing, around the gear or shaft drive and into the engine. I guess it's possible for hydraulic oil to get into the engine crank case, but it seems pretty unlikely. My repair manual doesn't give a diagram of the hydraulic pump since they apparently are never repaired--just replaced. However, I imagine that hydraulic oil getting into an engine would require a cracked pump chamber plus several additional failures. Possible, but not likely. Still, it's good to have a test for the possibility. I can't think of another way to test for the possibility, but I guess that something like that might be suspected if the hydraulic pressure tested low and the engine oil level was increasing. ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-11-18 21587
Hmm...I say "hydraulic fluid" myself. My reasoning is that hydraulic fluid doesn't have to be an oil....there are lots of instances where it is not. Although I can see that in a tractor hydraulic fluid would be an oil - at least it is in most places in my tractors.
For instance, about five years ago my buddy and I faced the necessity of repairing the brakes on our old farm truck by the side of the road. Because we had minimal tools and were 100 miles from home, the hydraulic fluid that we ended up using in the brake system had a lot in common with beer. It worked just fine.
I don't know how the B8200 hydraulic pump is mounted. Maybe it is totally remote from the engine like the power steering pump on a car. If so, please tell me and disregard the following explanation.
On many tractors the hydraulic pump is a gear pump enclosed in its own housing and bolted to the block - with the pump gears driven by a shaft from the engine. It seems to be popular to drive the pump and governor together via a common shaft from a spur gear in the timing chest. All it would take is for the seal around this shaft to be slightly leaky, and high pressure hydraulic fluid (luckily it is hydraulic oil in this case) would be injected into the timing cover where it would drain into the sump. This would not be a disaster. The oils should have similar enough qualities so that the engine would be ok for a little while, and the seal is accessible without major mechanical work. Personally I'd rather have this problem than some of the scenerios where diesel fuel is getting into the oil. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2000-11-19 21613
Beer huh? Must have made bleeding the system interesting. It's surprising what can be fixed sometimes. My neighbour in Denver, when I was growing up, told about going hunting in a Model T truck. The truck seized a crankshaft bearing, and all they had was a screw driver and crescent wrench. He said when they got the pan off, the whole inside of the crankcase was splattered with babbit. They eventually fixed it up with a tongue cut out of a boot and soaked in oil. It got them back to Denver OK. I believe that the problem was that one of the cups that splashed oil around the crankcase broke off, and the bearing went dry. It's also surprising what can run sometimes. As far as I know, Model T engines didn't have oil pumps. Oil was just splashed around. I don’t remember, but they may have wired the oil cup back in place as well. In the past, ‘bailing wire repair’ often was a reality rather than a joke.
The hydraulic pump on my 1710 is a straight gear drive taken off the crankshaft gear, and the pump bolts directly to the back side of the timing gear case. I believe the governor is run off the injection pump. I know I'm not the person with the problem, and the only reason I mention the 1710's design is that the pump would be fairly easy to remove with this design. If I had the problem, I might consider taking off the pump and having a look. However, I don't have a picture of the mounting end of the pump. So, I don't know if it would be obvious if it was leaking from an inspection. I suppose that if I couldn't figure anything else and had time to burn, I might just take it off and look.
....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2000-11-20 21646
Just to add a little to this conversation you have two places to get oil in the base from. The injection pump and you also have a oil pump that either one of could have a seal giong bad and dumping into the base. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-11-23 21733
If the fault was at the pump itself (highly unlikely because of how protected it is) that would put the leak at the point of the highest volume and pressure of the whole system. If that was the case the system would empty itself in pretty short order (and the oil pan would OVERFLOW long before that) besides, if there was a leak in the system at or that point there would be little or no hydraulic ability, sort of like when the relief valve sticks open. As for 'fluid' instead of 'oil', it is more a personal opinion based on the fact it is more of a manufactured product, than it is an 'added to' petroleum product. Most packaging and manuals I checked call it fluid also, for what that is worth. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2000-11-24 21751
Yes, I think that hydraulic fluid getting into engine oil around the pump linkage is just a possibility, but not a likely one. I'm perhaps guilty of using the possibility as a reason to get into my repair manual and figure out some more tractor mechanics. All the wrenching I got paid to do was on motorcycles and pre-70's gas vehicles, so I'm a little obsessive about figuring out how these tractor things work. The last thing I remember about wrenching was that the most common repair was 'filing the points.' Now I've got a car and a truck I can barely do anything to. Ah, but the tractor's got potential, for satisfying my wrenching urges.
I did say 'hydraulic fluid' above. 'Fluid' is perhaps the more common term, although I did say ‘oil’ previously. At least I’ve heard people refer to UTF (Universal Transmission Fluid). I think my AGCO drum says 'fluid' but the NH drum may say 'oil.' ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2000-11-25 21806
The oil, fuel or fluid when entering a pump isn't under presure but it is going out of the pump. Hopefully that is, and that is when it leaks or seeps out of the seals in to the crankcase. Often you will notice a change in the color of the oil depending on the severity of the leak. Normallly by the time we see them we can tell quickly. There are some types of pumps that when people call we know this is the problem due to the amount of times we have seen it before. ....
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