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Using brakes with Hydrostatic

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retcol
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2006-03-14          126113

I own a Kubota L3830 with a Hydrostatic transmission. I was plowing snow that had a lot of moisture in it. As a result is was quite slippery. How do I turn when I need to use the brakes and still keep my foot on the hydro pedal? It appears that tractors with brake pedals on the left side have an edge on Kubota. Any suggestions?

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Art White
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2006-03-14          126131

I'd have to say to take a smaller bite. Farmers don't use the brakes on four wheel drive tractors for steering as they know the costs. ....

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kwschumm
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2006-03-14          126134

Art's probably right but the kubota pedal position on those hydro models does seem to negate the turning brakes. Sometimes you just gotta use turning brakes. Once in a muddy spot I ended up neatly sideways between two trees with maybe three feet of total fore and aft movement. There was no way to turn the wheels and get out, but the turning brakes had me going damn near sideways. Amazing feature when you need 'em. ....

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retcol
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2006-03-15          126143

I wasn't even plowing any snow when I needed the brakes. I had gotten off the edge of the driveway and I couldn't get back on. The current Kubota design doesn't make any sense. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-15          126144

having the brake pedals on one side and the hydro on the other was one of the reasons I wen Green. I have some inclines that are covered with grass and they are very slippery at times and I use the brakes often for turning assistance. I used them all winter to keep the tractor going straight when I was plowing. It doesn't usually take much pressure.
Maybe the BIG Farmers with the BIG TOYS don't use them because of cost, But me, I have a 4115 and use them all of the time and on my 400 I used them for 25 years and never had to replace shoes. I guess if the tire isn't grabbing or hasn't any friction per se, you aren't putting a lot of force on the pads. ....

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DRankin
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2006-03-15          126149

Ditto to wingwiper. I do not understand Kubota's thinking on the brakes.

I don't use the split brake feature on my 4115 much..... but when you need them, you need them.

It would be hard to fathom wearing out the wet disk brakes on a homeowners HST equipped tractor.

With 200 hours on the machine and pushing three years, I don't think I have more than 5 minutes on those brakes. ....

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yooperpete
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2006-03-15          126155

If you lock your hydro in cruise control mode, you can use your left foot as a clutch, (to start and stop)as original farm gear tractors were. You can then use your right foot to operate either or both brakes. ....

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Art White
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2006-03-15          126159

It can be done but it is normally cumbersome. I do have customers doing it as well as I have. I think it is good to have a tractor that is built like the rest of the tractors built so when you get the oppurtunity to test drive or if you have to use them you don't look like you just learned to walk. A well known flaw built into one of America's favorite tractor brands,been that way for over 20 years is a pump in front of the filter! The operator doesn't really know that the brakes are failing do to the strengths of a hydraulic brake system until after the second hydraulic pump installation and often talking with someone that has been thru it before or who has knowledge of this built in problem! They do take the brake linings through the pump and basically cause it's distruction. No they don't offer a brake wear lite and there is no warning other then your pockets being empty after two hydraulic pumps and a brake job! Seen it many times before and I bet I'll see it again! ....

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harvey
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2006-03-15          126161

Having to use brakes to steer the tractor or maintain course means you are outside of the normal operating parameters.

May be you need chains to increase traction and steerability.

Using brakes to steer falls into the abuse area of equipment operation. No where will you find a operator manual telling you to use the brakes to steer. Abilaty to operate with in given parameters seperates the operators and weekend cowboys.

Single brakes can get you out of a tight spot on an occasion but should never be depended on for continious steering.

The comment about the 400 is off base. I have replaced brakes on old Farmalls and they are not easy nor are the disk brake systems cheap. As Art already mentionedhow much contanimation do you want in your hydraulic and gear systems? ....

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Murf
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2006-03-16          126164

I think it's just a matter of technique.....

You either use your toe for the brake and your heel for the hydro. pedal, or you use both feet, it's easier than you think to swivel and have both feet on the right side.

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-16          126167

Harvey

My Manual for my JD 4115 says the brakes may be used to assist in turning.
I just went to the JD website went to the 4120 and fired up the manual and went to the brake section and this is what I found
Quote
1. Rotate brake pedal latch (A) clockwise until it locks into right turn brake pedal (B).

2. Depress either brake pedal to slow or stop the machine.

· With latch down, brakes should stop machine in a straight line.

Using Brake Pedals to Assist In Turning:
IMPORTANT: Avoid damage! Do not apply turn brakes while an implement is engaged with the ground. Damage to the 3-point hitch and implement may occur.



NOTE: Turn brake pedals can be used to make tighter turns and may reduce unnecessary backing.

1. Rotate brake pedal latch (A) counterclockwise until it stops against left turn brake pedal (C). The brake pedals will now function independently.

· To make a tighter left turn, depress left turn brake pedal (C) while turning to the left.

· To make a tighter right turn, depress right turn brake pedal (B) while turning to the right.

unquote
The brakes unlock from each other for the SAKE OF TURNING. I operate well within the specs of my tractor. I use the brakes to go in a straight line when on Snow or slippery surface or even when I want to get a straight dig with the FEL.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-16          126169

Harvey

The comments about my 400 are NOT off base. I have owned it since 1979 and I have never replaced the shoes and I still use it and the brakes still work. I have brought it in yearly for preventative maintenance and I do my own oil changes, filters, hydralics fluids etc etc and much of my own mechanical work. Maybe you should trade in your Farmall for a JOHN DEERE........ ....

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yooperpete
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2006-03-16          126170

Back on the farm in the old days we used the brakes all of the time to help with steering. The IHC Super "C" brakes where used constantly when cultivating and planting for a tight turn around when planting/cultivating 4 rows at a time. On the larger IHC tractors, we used directional braking at corners to get tight into square corners when tilling to work the ground. Quite often when plowing you would also hit the brake to make a sharp turn keeping the headlands narrow. Typically you would lock the brake, and the tire would skid on the soft soil.

I still have the Super "C" and it is 1949-1952 era model and the brakes have never been serviced. The new tractor designs may use different style brake systems. Don't know about that! ....

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091755
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2006-03-16          126195

The brakes on the same side as the pedal on the Kubota hydrostatic models is one of it's poor designs, but you can learn to use them. I can say in the nearly 10 years of using two Kubota tractors with hydrostatic, I rarely have to use the brakes, except on the road to slow down in high.
Use your heal on the front of the pedal and your toe on the brake - admittedly not the best, but for the few times you really need brakes with a hydrostatic tractor, it is not a big problem. If it is - sorry to say - you probably should not have purchased hydrostatic.
doc ....

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Art White
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2006-03-16          126200

I'd have to say it is the original design and still the most sold design! I don't understand. Anyone that thinks they can force skid a drive axle and not induce undo wear compared to not doing it doesn't understand what is happening when they slid a four wheel drive tractor axle! People do do it I can't deny it, it is done but to say it is the best or even to try to say it doesn't hinder the life of tires or driveline components or steering linkage system is, never mind! Better off not said! Bet we can't wait for the new F-250 with independent brake petals for better navigation of irregular terrain! Two wheel drive narrow front end is a lot different then the four wheel drive turn. They normally could turn that tight with narrow front ends but needed the brakes to keep them from sliding. Many of the steering systems of the early row-crop tractors actually applied the brakes when turned so far. ....

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yooperpete
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2006-03-17          126212

I'm not suggesting that using directional braking is a good thing. I haven't run into a situation yet, that I needed to do it. Just backed-up and jockeyed around.

In my opinion a 4WD tractor is actually 2WD, one in the back and one in the front. If you lock the differential you basically have 3WD. If the rear is not locked, applying directional braking just stops one of the rear wheels and if it was the driving wheel, the other one takes over. You still have only one front wheel positively driving giving you a skewed type drived steering. I don't recommend doing it alot.

Our old farm tractors all had wide front ends and directional braking was common. They really were 2WD or actually one wheel positively driving.

True or not, that is my analogy of how it works. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-17          126213

Art

In John Deere's Manuals they are even referred to as Turn Brakes.
From my experience, the only time I have needed them is on slippery or Snowy surfaces and that means there is no friction on the base of the tire and I would say that wearon the tire or the axle would be held to a minium. As far as when I said I also use the TURN BRAKES to ensure a straight dig with the FEL, I am also on poor traction surface, such soft dirt, again very little resistance to the tire and ground.
My 400 I have been using since 1979 and I have used the brakes as TURN BRAKES very often and yet have NEVER replaced shoes or had any problem with the axles, I have had the axles apart many many times and have seen no noticeable wear on the gears. Why? You ask....LOL, well the 400 had a very poor 3 pt hitch design, the left and right axles were made of a Pig Iron of sort or maybe a White Metal and could not be welded, the Eyes for the 3 pt hitch arms were apart of the axle and over the years I had broke many eyes off of the axles and had to replace the left and right axles Housings many many times at a $100 plus per side.
To each teir own, I bought my tractor to work it and if the TURN BRAKES are needed to ge tthe job done, then the wear is all apart of the overhead to get the Job accomplished.
It was a VERY important part of my deciding factor to buy JD as well as the seperate hydralic pumps, one for steering and one for the implements, JD had BOTH. ....

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Art White
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2006-03-17          126216

Wingwiper you are right about it being a cost of getting a job done! If and when it's needed I've done it but I've made it a practice of not trying to destroy items because of an individual job or instance. The only person who benifits is the dealer or the manufacturer that might have a weak part that will be the first to fail. What is the down time worth other then the cost of the repair for that magic moment or the continued use in that fashion. I know of people that don't seem to mind fixing equipment from improper operation and that's fine as my shop and parts departments enjoy the continual repairs. I do feel it is my place as a dealer to try and help them get beyond the short comings of the equipment they are operating and not have the aggravations. Anytime something needs to be fixed continually it should be evaluated and changed out to something with enough strength to not need that repair or a change in the operation so that the problem area is eliminated. I'll fix it once the factory way, the second time with more modifications to see what the next weak link is and about the third time that machine would be down the road! There is no machine built perfect for every job! To fix something many times and not change, I'd say that you might enjoy working on your tractor more then working with it! I enjoy building engines at home, just a couple a year, when I'm done I only need to tune them up and change the oil, not be adjusting the valves after a good nite with the boys. ....

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Murf
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2006-03-17          126220

We have an old Farmall that has integral turn brakes, they engage and disengage automatically.

There is a pair of cables from the steering linkage to the brake actuators, when you turn the steering fully one way or the other it engages the inside brake automatically.

It will turn the tractor in it's own length, but you have to really hold on if you're going very fast. It turns so fast it nearly throws you off. LOL.

The only time we really have to use the steering brake function on amdoern tractor today is to stop a downhill drift on a side-slope, or in the winter to combat the slippery conditions.

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-17          126224

Murf
You said it again....
It is NOT IMPROPER OPERATION to use the brakes for turning, not when they are even referred to as TURNING BRAKES and are explained in the manual to be used to TURN and avoid having to back up. It is Considered NORMAL USE.
I know that some manuafacturers claim as soon as you put a Plow on your truck, you VOID the warranty. Dodge allowds you to put a plow on it and it does NOT void your warranty unless of course you exceed your axle rating, but with the right plow that is not the case or by putting a Tow Hitch on the back will eliminate that problem as well.
That is what I am arguing, that with John Deere and I am sure other brands, it is NOT deemed as IMPROPER USE ....

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Art White
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2006-03-17          126225

wingwiper the point that is trying to be made to you that by turning with the brakes does not extend anythings life! It in fact shortens it and increases the cost of operation and shortens the reliable life of the unit. You have chosen to fix your JD 400's rear axle multiple times, I'd have replaced it with something built to do the job or modified it to work without constant repair. Some manufacturers continue to build machines with short comings in different areas and the only benifit is to the manufacturer with increased sales for replacement parts. There is a car manufacturer that offers a ten year 100,000 mile warrantee for their cars. It is not transferable so it means nothing to the second owner, shooting the odd's the bulk of all new veichles are traded by 50,000 miles! ....

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Murf
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2006-03-17          126228

WingWiper, take 3 deep breaths and relax for a second, this is a FORUM .....

We DISCUSS things here, we don't ARGUE them.

Now, what I think is being missed here is the basics.

First of all, 'turning brakes' are just that, to help you turn around in a shorter circle at the end of the field so you don't waste as much land in the form of headlands. They were created at a time when the only tractors were just 2WD, and turned a LOT sharper than most modern 2WD tractors can, WAY MORE than any 4WD tractor.

I think the wear & tear that Art was mentioning was as much in the front end as the rear. If you force the tractor to turn in a circle that is smaller than the turning radius of the steering, the front end will have to skid to take up the difference. This is hard on tires, steering gear and bearings. If the tractor is in 4WD when you do the wear is even worse. It is also, obviously, going to dramatically increase the wear on the rear brakes as well.

So to sum it up, no, it is not necessarily IMPROPER use, but it also very far from a RECOMMENDED use too.

Best of luck.

....

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091755
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2006-03-18          126278

retcol
You might get some help, by adding weight to the tractor. Those tractors are really lite and I had to add weight to my L3430 in the rear to get good traction with a front end snow blower. Boy, did it make a difference. Might want to try that too.
doc ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-18          126283

Art

If I didn't start my tractor and left in sitting in the garage that would extend the Tractor Life right? Well I use it as I was told to use and as it works and JD says it is fine to use the Turn Brakes so I use them, beleive me Art, they comein handy. Now grant you, if my land was flat, I may never need them. but i live in the mountains and there half submerge rocks, ditches, hills, and very unevern terrain. It is grassy, mossy, wet and slippery, I use the brakes and drive the tractor as I would a Skid Steer. So without being sarcastic, for those who are going to be cutting grass on flat ground or whatever, they may NEVER need to use their brakes to assit in their steering or to even assist them in going STRAIGHT. I do and I do plenty and as I said earlier, my 400 was used on the same property for 25 years and I use the split turn brakes all of the time for the same purpose and have never replaced the pads.
Art, I could not replace the axles with anything but what JD had. there was a left side axle housing and a right side axle house. It was made form what appeared to be a Pig Iron and the eyelets for the 3 pt hith arms were molded on the axle. I was using a Rotor Tiller made for the 400, it was a 50 inch and when it hit a submerged rock it would buck and jump and nother eyelet would be broke. There were TWO eyelets per side and the holding pin slid thru one, thru the tiller and then the other eyelet. It was a very poor JD design and I would have made it apart of the STEEL Frame. I did what I had to do to keep the garden tilled etc. Not by choice, but by need. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-18          126284

Murf,

If I don't agree with someone and I post my views and reasons, that is NOT arguing and Yes! that is what a forum is for. I have learned alot on these boards and bought my Tractor as a result of what I learned here. There are things I have learned in the time I have been using tractors that may be different from you or Art or drankin etc and I share them and try to give the logical reasons supporting what I am saying.
When someone posts that it is IMPROPER Operation of a tractor to use the split brakes for turning and I see it right in my Owners manual that is what they are for and they are even called Turning Brakes, I am NOT arguing, I am defending and if you can be more convincing that what I am reading or doing, then I will accpt YOUR Views, if not I will defend mine, I do NOT call that ARGUING. Debatings is way to learn with defensive fact finding as a support. If everyone said the same thing what need would you have for a FORUM and if everyone said the same thing where would the (as you call it) discussion come from????? ....

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harvey
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2006-03-18          126296

I guess I stirred the pot some. But that is ok. I'll stir it somemore I suspect.

When I stated Brakes are not for steering or maintaining course. It is a solid statement. If the conditions are so slippery you have to depend on your brakes to keep on course you are outside of the safe operating parameters. If your front end is so light and you have to depend on your brakes to steer or maintain course you are outside safe parameters. Try pulling a 16' harrow up a sidehill with a old Farmall or JD with no front weights and you'll know what I am talking about. I've been there and done that. ITS NOT SAFE! I'd NEVER PUT AN INEXPERIENED PERSON IN THAT POSITION.

Sorry about the comment on the 400 my first thought is a Farmall 50 years old now. I do not know of anyone who has not replaced brakes on these that sidehill farms.

Can you use a brake to help make a turn with out the front end pushing out? Yes by all means. However it needs to be at a reduced speed and not by locking the brake to skid the tire.

I'll stand by the comment about OPERATORS and WEEKEND COWBOYS... There is a big difference in careful operation that gets the job done and the wham bam I bought so I can do it anyway I can...

Locking the brake to make a hard turn is abuse. Using the brake to assist in a turn is not. ....

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Art White
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2006-03-19          126323

I'd like to have more customers with your patience wingwiper. I know I don't hold for long when a piece gives me trouble. I do move to another unit that doesn't have flaws although overall the 400 was a good tractor. We don't have to much as far as level land where we are but it is still rare to find the brakes unlocked on a four wheel drive tractor. Many two and four wheel drive that we take in we have to free the levers to check the brakes. ....

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dsg
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2006-03-19          126326

I've put 3200 hrs. all together on my own tractors and probably half that on tractors when I was a kid and I've never locked my brakes together. You gotta have turning brakes to be accurate:)

David ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-20          126337

Art

I had bought my 400 with al of the implements, back blade, BIG rotor tiller, snowblower, 60 inch mmm and I worked its tail off for 25 years. We are now using it only to pull the 300 gallon Sap container and to haul the trailer of firewood etc. It still runs, but I repalced those axle housings for the LAST time and traded the Tiller in for a manual and a BIG tarp when I bought my 4115.
Patience?? Me?? you really do have me confused with someoe else, I have very little patience and that has gotten me into trouble many times.
I enjoy these forums, for it was a many discussions that I would read from the first to the last and took in all of the info. I have been reading these forums since early 2004 and joined so I could ask questions back in June 04. I bought my 4115 in Feb of 05, based on what I had learned in these forums.
I know others are reading for the same purpose and it isn't that I am fighting any one person, I am defending issues and giving opinions and my reasons, so the next reader can make their decision, based on FULL INFORMATION.
Good Luck ....

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Art White
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2006-03-20          126338

wingwiper, I just try to make sure that people get all the life of the dollars they invest in equipment and then some. I've seen a lot of manuals and I've seen a lot of revisions as well as bad information from companies as to what their products should be able to do on a daily basis. Problem is not everyone has the test facilities that the manufacturers use for themselves. I've watched people break them, I've broken them, and I've just seen the pieces and been told what happened. I can't say I've seen it all, but I know I've seen things I wish I didn't! I've seen front wheel hubs broke from full bucket skid turns,some empty and a manufacturer that said no more after the third time, I've seen bent and broken wheels two piece being the worst pulled lugs and people that couldn't keep tie rod ends from stripping out or breaking and even a broken center pivot or two from a sudden stop. I've seen them on those green tractors too and they probably had the same in the owners manual as your tractor does and our brands might also say the same and I'd still give the same caution to anyone buying one of our make tractors or the other guys! Fortunately they probably will live fine till out of warrantee but then the owner will be paying! To occasionally use the brakes to assist the steering I don't see a problem but for some it could be. I hope that the things I recommend here are taken seriously here as it comes from living with more then one brand tractor and machinery and far more then a tractor or two. I may be a little conservative for some but I've found there are people that will stretch things so I try to speak for all to enjoy a long life with their equipment no matter what brand. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-20          126346

Art

You explained yourself much better in this last post, and I can fully agree with you. I have never needed Turn Brakes when I have had a load on a NON SLIPPERY surface and sounds to me that the problems that you are witnessing are from people who are trying to steer their tractors with the brakes, on NON-slippery or giving surfaces, thus hubs are breaking and tie rods are coming apart. I use the brakes only on slippery surfaces and I am always in 4wd, but tryingto maneuver some of my inclinces, I need to take them at an angle and so doing causes my front end to start slipping down hill, in order to maintain course I use brakes, I have mentioned many times I use them all of the time, on wet, snowy or otherwise slippery surfaces where the front end will easily slip without much grip. When using the brakes it will keep me on course. I can't recall a time where I have had a FEL Loaded and I was on solid surface and used my brakes for turning, when I use my brakes it DOES NOT push the front end, but rather I use the brakes enough that the front end stays on course or if I need to make a tight turn, I use the brakes to get me around that corner so I don't ram the House or whatever is nearby that I have to get around. Otherwise it is ONLY for maintaing course. ....

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DRankin
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2006-03-20          126353

Well spoken, fellow 4115 driver!

I understand Art's point better too.

By the time I get around to using the turning brakes, the front wheels are already cranked in that direction and the the front end is sliding downhill or into a wall or some such thing, and always in snow, mud or a mix of both.

I would NEVER use the brakes in a dry surface, wouldn't need them there......... ....

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kwschumm
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2006-03-20          126355

I've used turning brakes on my 4310 only a couple of times in three years. In these instances it was either use the turning brakes or get out the chainsaw and cut down a tree. With my luck the tree would have fallen on the tractor. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-20          126361

Hey DR

It was YOUR posts about your 46 BH, that encouraged me to buy JD and their 46 BH, you were one of the very first ones, that I know of that got the 46 BH and made comments AND you had a picture of it. I was able to see it, for the JD website never had it. This was many months prior to me buying one, but much of my decision was based on YOUR debates and discussions, and of course others ( I wouldn't want the sides of your head to bump on the Garage door) ....

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DRankin
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2006-03-20          126363

To Late!

Too late for Chief too.

Some folks just pop out of the oven with a big noggin. ....

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kthompson
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2006-03-20          126371

DR,

Just how big? Can you even measure it in a hat size? Looks sort of like a Martian I guess. Really like the way you reached out and included Chief.

If I knew what stood for rolling in floor laughing I would have it typed here.

kt

....

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dsg
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2006-03-20          126379

kt, ROFLOL, rolling on floor laughing out loud.

Dennis, can we have that notarized,certified,registered and copies sent to all :))

David ....

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kthompson
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2006-03-21          126414

Just think (this is harder for some of us that others),

Some people stand in line and pay big bucks for less humor that this site has.

....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-21          126428

Well Geez! I tried to give ole DR a sutle compliment but I can see that the Ole Eagle Eyes on these boards don't let nothing get by them... LOL
....

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091755
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2006-03-27          126733

Sounds to me as if many guys dont understand that the 'old' tractors that were not 4 wheel drive actually DID need brakes to help turn them, whether it was cultivating corn, planting corn, disking, or turning at the end of the field when plowing. I assume many of these guys never even drove an 'old' tractor that required use of the brakes for this. It appears to be a fruitless arguement. Cant explain something to someone who never did it.
doc ....

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DennisCTB
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2006-03-27          126737

I have heard some people talk about how important turning brakes are and how they have saved them in a pinch. But it does make me wonder how that can be as on my tractor and I think on all other tractors built today, the brakes have a bar holding them together all the time, and the only way you would be able to use them is if "you knew you were going to use them"! And I seem to recall that the operators manual specifies that they should be left in the locked position for normal use.

It also seems that the diff lock could be used as a beeter choice to gain traction in the loss of traction situations someone mentioned.

I have run a skid steer so I know what it feels like to lock up one side to turn, it is tight, but doing that with the skid steer certainly beat the crap out of the driveway and the lawn. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-28          126776

Dennis

Glad to hear your opinion. I think Normal can be defined many ways. Why don't 3/4 t and 1 ton trucks have mpg ratings??? simply because NORMAL is defined many diffeent ways. Normal with a tractor is probably just rdriving along as you would any vehicle, and YEs! locking the brakes for NORMAL use would be the proper thing to do. Now what is NOT nromal, would be unlevel terrain, Snowy, wet, or muddy conditions, unless of course you live in the Tropics and the tractor is built in the Tropics, than Yes! those conditions would be considered Normal. My JD manual refers to the Brakes as Left and Right Turning Brakes and as the quote I took from the manual clearly says.
Skid Steers are very large and have Agressive Tires and chains and Yes! will tear up a lawn, I drove a tank on Hot asphalt once and during my turn, the road got pretty torn up and that was with Rubber Cleats and not Metal.... It isn't the loss of traction in the rear when I use the brakes, it is more the loss in the front and to compensate i use the individual brakes to keep my course. Inclines, wet clay etc will cause this and because of the lack of friction (resistance) there is no wear to the tires or minute wear to the shoes or pads. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-28          126777

It is said that Vermont would be bigger than Texas if you could get on the corners and pull to get all of the wrinkles out. We don't have much FLAT territory here outside the Champlain Valley. ....

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Murf
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2006-03-28          126778

"Why don't 3/4 t and 1 ton trucks have mpg ratings???"

Because they are not considered "passenger" vehicles and so the goobermint doesn't hold a gun to the manufacturers head and tell them they have to.

Besides, if they did publish the ratings it would scare off a lot of buyers, especially since there can be such a wide range of mileage within the same vehicle by changing engines and gear ratios. It would be a logicstical nightmare.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2006-03-28          126788

Mostly flat land for me,

Have a CUT and mid size farm tractor. CUT, hydro trans and brake stay locked (Kubota) normally.

Farm tractor brakes are only locked while on road so to stop rather straight.

Have used brakes on each to turn in fields (yes, my CUT is used in field mainly pulling sprayer). Real pain on the CUT to use as has already been pointed out and very seldom have needed to. But the farm tractor use them all the time. These are not OLD tractors and if you find a brand new farm tractor in use I think you will see brakes used for making many turns at end of the field. (when you get to the large tractors that break, doubt brakes are used much on them if any.) ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-28          126789

Murf

That isn't true. It is because the 3/4T and 1T are used for multi purposes and because they are WORK trucks MPG is not an issue.
1/2 tons have a range of Engines, 2wd, 4wd, 3.55 or 3.92, LT245 or LT 265 tires, 8 ft or 6.3 ft, Quad cab or Reg Cab, V-6, 4.7L, 5.7L MDS Hemi, Manual or Auto, Tow Pkg, No tow Pkg etc etc and the MPG is Rated. 1/2 tons can be used for many of the SAME purposes as the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but are more apt to be seen cruisin the Interstates as well, if you see the 3/4 or 1 tom, they may have a Goose Neck, Fifth Wheel, Class V or who knows, may have a stake body, dump body etc, they only have TWO engines, 5.7L MDS Hemi or the 5.9L Cummins, 3.75 or 4.10, LT 245 or LT 265, Reg Cab or Quad Cab, Manual or auto. It could very well have alot to do with GCVWRs. ....

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Murf
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2006-03-28          126792

Wing, it is true.

The EPA requires, that the mileage estimates, made according to their guidlines, be published and posted in the window of every "automobile" produced since 1977.

An "automobile" is defined under Part 600 of Act, actually § 600.002–85 Definitions., "(4) ‘‘Automobile’’ means: [sic] (i) Any four-wheel vehicle propelled by a combustion
engine using onboard fuel or by an electric
motor drawing current from rechargeable storage
batteries or other portable energy storage devices
(rechargeable using energy from a source off the
vehicle such as residential electric service), and [sic] (iii) Which is rated at not more than 8,500
pounds gross vehicle weight, which has a curb
weight of not more than 6,000 pounds, and which
has a basic vehicle frontal area of not more than
45 square feet,....".

So, like I said, anything over 8,500 pounds GVWR is not required to even be tested for mileage ratings.

BTW, here's a little hint for you, sometimes when people say things it NOT just because 'Vern down at the plant' said it was so, they actually know the FACTS.

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-28          126797

Murf

I don't see where you referred to GVWR as a factor for mpg, before your last post. If you had I would have agreed with you. I didn't see anything in your first post that even comes close to what you just posted. Thank God for Google. LOL
I was disagreeing with your rationalization about 1/4 tons and the logistics, there is as many logistics nightmares with a 1500 series as there is with a 2500 or 3500, but GVWR I will absolutely agree with you and I made a mention to that area in my reply.
No insult intended, you are only words on a screen to me and you could be getting info from Vern, How am I to know? LOL. ....

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Murf
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2006-03-28          126799

Good plan.

Lets see if we can get this straight yet.

You said MPG rating don't count because "because they are WORK trucks MPG is not an issue." to which I replied that was NOT the case, MPG ratings aren't given because nobody forces them to waste the time and money doing it.

I am sorry if the reference to a "passenger" vehicle threw you off, I was merely pointing out your error.

However it doewsn't change the fact that it is the GVWR that determines if they need to be shown or not.

Next time I promise to elucidate a little more in posts.

Good cover though, almost sounded plausible...... ;->

....

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