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Ben
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2006-01-09          122492

When my wife and I bought our canoe we brought it to the pond to see what it took to tip it over. We wanted to know its limitations in advance. We just got our new L3400 and we would like to know what it takes to tip her over but we don't want to do a test tip. This is our 1st tractor. I saw pics of Kwschumm,s tractor on it's side. Our tractor has a front loader and loaded rear AG tires. I know plain old common sense will keep it upright most of the time, but what mistakes should I avoid ? Thanks, Ben

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kwschumm
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2006-01-09          122493

For one thing, stay away from soft ledges on hills :) If you're in uncompacted fill go easy. If you feel like things are getting hairy just STOP, get off, and think about it for awhile. It's easier to drag a tractor out of a bad area than trying to upright it after the fact. ....

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bo
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2006-01-09          122494

what ponds due you canoe in ....

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kthompson
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2006-01-09          122503

Ben,

No doubt you will enjoy your tractor. I use to tip test cranes. Sort of boring if controlled but was dangerous if not. I assume you are worried about side roll over most. If you have a way to place a side load on the tractor such as a 3 point piece of equipement that rotates to the side you may can use it. If you don't have such I don't know how to tell you to safely. As for the front end coming up to me a boom pole will surprise you will how little weight it takes due to how far from the tractor the weight can be.

If you have a way to place a side load first get the tractor on solid level ground. Take the side load with it only a few inches off the ground and slowly extend it out until the tractor tips. If you do as I said it will stop tipping when the weight touches ground. That is why the load should be inches off the ground and not a few feet. In that case you proably will not only know when it will tip but also how it feels to be on your side.

There probably are more but the only two pieces of equipment I am aware of you could use to test this would be a back hoe or a side mount cutter. If you don't have either maybe you could borrow one or rent one. Be sure you don't over load lift arms doing this. If you find you are having a tendency to tip and are able to set you tires wider that will help make the tractor more stable. Also wheel weights and water (you probably would not want straight water due to freezing for one reason and rust another) in the tires.

I live on rather flat land and here the only times I have ever heard of a tractor turning over if such as Ken told you above or slipping into ditch or pond sideways. I have found my tractors take more to tip than the seat of my pants will allow me to do.

I am not sure if Kubota gives you a safe degree of slope to work on or not in the manual. Try looking first.

Of cousre if you can work up and down any slope rather than sideways. I found a warning label recently that told you to be sure you have your seat belt fastened and to remain in it if your tractor rolls, so it would not roll onto you. You can not out jump it when it is rolling.

Hopes this helps.

kt ....

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Ben
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2006-01-09          122504

Hey bo! That's a different forum / different subject. Let's talk tractors. thanks, Ben ....

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Ben
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2006-01-09          122505

There are so many warning labels pasted all over this tractor, It seems they ( Kubota ) expect something to go wrong. My car only has one rollover warning label, My truck none. I rolled a pick-up on it's side once and was only going about 25 MPH. Poor judgement on my part. I don't plan on being gun-shy with this tractor, just want to be aware of it's limitations. Thanks, Ben ....

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Peters
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2006-01-09          122507

I guess I have been canoeing since before I can remember. I don't remember ever flipping a canoe unless we did it on purpose.

There are certain rules about canoeing like tractor that keep you out of danger. That said most of us have had them on 2 wheels at some point.

You generally what to run the tractor up or down the hill and avoid running across the hill. I regularly cut along the slope next to the road, between the road and the trees. I am generally balancing on the edge of sliding. I am balancing it on the edge. Ready to turn down hill at any moment.

We have discuss this a number of times. I would look back in the threads. ....

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bvance
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2006-01-09          122509

Here's an easy way to tell what the tipping point might be: Put the implement on the tractor you would use the most and simply drive on a slope that causes your fanny meter to pucker a bit, shut off the engine, set your brake and get off and attempt to lift the tractor from the uphill side. If you can't lift the uphill tire off the ground, drive to a bit more slope and repeat the process until you find the point that you beleive is unsafe.

This sounds a bit elementary, but until I tried it myself I had no idea just what might be unsafe. I surprised myself with knowing I have a bit more tipping tolerance than my fanny meter was telling me.....everyone's fanny meter is of course different, and you just need to experiment until you find out for yourself.

You can also drive all around your property, testing various places until you know which areas are safe and which are not. Just remember, if you change the center of gravity with different equipment, load levels, or implement positioning, you will want to re-test.

When you test, don't push the limit and give yourself some fudge factor for safety.

Good Luck and safe tractoring! ....

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agriman
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2006-01-09          122510

Ben,

You gave the best advice... Good old common sense will keep you on all fours. Just think before you act. Ask yourself if what your about to do is a good idea.

Other good ideas. Always keep your load at the lowest point possible. The higher the load is raised the more unstable your unit becomes. If you must operate with a raised load then slow down, take your time and avoid making high speed turns.

I can't express enough the importance of using a rear mounted weight box when using a loader. It not only equals out the added stress to the driveline caused by the load but, it will also improve the handling of your tractor. Without a weight box any weight in your bucket (including the weight of the loader and bucket itself) is carried by the front axle which means your steering system has to work harder in order to try and turn the tires and in some cases you lose most of your steering performance and in others cases the system simple can’t turn tires unless your moving.

If your carrying all the load with the front axle then think what's happening to your front tires. Without a weight box to balance the load with the rear of your unit your hammering your front tires. Premature tire wear will become an issue.

But lets be real here.. IF all you do with your loader is carry around a shovel, rake and a few pot plants then you may not necessarily need a weight box but, I would bet that very few people fall into that category or at least for very long.

One of my favorite sayings is “You can’t fix stupid” In other words a Manufacturer can do everything in their power to prevent an accident from happening but, in the end it’s really up to the operator to use his/her Common sense. ....

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kwschumm
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2006-01-09          122512

If you're gonna tow you have to keep the tongue weight LOW. If you hitch a load above the normal drawbar height and it's a heavy load or the load gets stuck the tractor can easily rotate right around the hitch and flip over backwards. ....

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bvance
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2006-01-09          122514

I agree with the comment that you need a rear ballast most of the time and especially if you are using the FEL. But if all you are doing is mowing, which is perhaps one of the most common tasks we undertake, then a rear ballast box or box blade is not ideal. With the 3pt at full up position, the implement is too high and negatively effects the center of gravity. If you lower it some, you always find it dragging when going into dips or over humps.

I have found if you are mowing in hilly terain, the best and safest solution is to remove both the FEL and any rear implements. Then the center of gravity to the tractor is at it's lowest possible moment. The FEL even when its lowered to a point it misses most places, the frame of the FEL increases the center of gravity beyond any amount you could lower the bucket.

Unfortunately, the safest method is not very often the easiest. But I have found with testing the tipping point on my property, and moving some dirt in the worst places to solve some problems, I can mow with FEL on with no problems.

One final point I forgot to mention. If after you park your tractor on a side-hill to test the tipping point, make sure you get off on the uphill side. Sometimes, just the way you may be distributing your weight on the seat may be keeping the uphill wheels on the ground and you would not want the tractor to roll into you as you get off. I know, fundamentals everyone already knows, until we don't think!

Good Luck! ....

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Ben
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2006-01-10          122518

bvance; Thanks for the tip, BUT, If I park my L3400 on a sidehill, get off the tractor and am able to lift it by hand, my fanny meter would'nt allow me to get back on the tractor and drive it out of there. I've been thinking of adding weight to the back as some of you are suggesting. How much weight would I need and what would be the best way to carry it ? I've been going into the woods, loading the bucket with firewood and hauling it up to the house. Some of these loads seem front heavy. Thanks, Ben ....

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kthompson
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2006-01-10          122523

Ben,
Sorry you thought I was on different subject. Safety normally is not limited to a different thread. I have used a tractor a lot around ponds and ditches with a side mounted cutter. On ground level and about 13 feet in the air. I had to know what was fully safe as with a load 13 feet in the air there no time to lower or often room to. The very first thing I did was test stability. I know the way I suggested is fully safe and works. The company I was with tested thousands of machines with no roll overs o damaged machines and with loads as much as 25% over factory specs. The cranes we tested were more like tractors than you just might think.

I really like the suggestion of trying to pick up, your up hill side of the tractor. I saw visions of a Mr. Muscle doing so and it rolling down the hill. Hey, I know no one here would do that. Just could see that happening.

The advice to exit the tractor on the uphill side was very good.
kt ....

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MacDaddy
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2006-01-10          122529

This might sound obvious, but It has been my experience that you'll moreoften get yourself into trouble when you dont expect it, than when you do. Ive had my 4310 in some somewhat percarious situations, but I knew it, and moved slowly and carefully, and everything turned out fine. The pucker-factor has only come into play under normal every-day operation.. ie: traveling over relitively flat ground w/ a load, back tire rolls over a log i didnt notice and all of a sudden im in a bad place.

A mental understanding of your tractor's ballast is good to know, but it will not prepare you for the latter situation. Just my $.02.

Andy ....

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shortmagnum
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2006-01-10          122530

Ben, it would be good to have a 3pt counterweight available when you need it. An easy way to make one is to buy a drawbar at you farm supply store. It's the kind that fits between your lower 3pt arms and costs about $25. You can build a form around it so that you can pour concrete into it to make your counterweight. Mine is about 1500 lbs but I would have preferred about 1000. Then before the concrete has cured set two beefy angle iron's vertically to attach the upper control arm. If you have a mix plant nearby you can probably get them to fill it with leftover mix from some other job for little or nothing.
Dave ....

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DRankin
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2006-01-10          122535

There should be some guidance in the owners manual as to safe ballasting.

A good rule of thumb is that you will need AT LEAST the same weight on the rear as you are adding to the front.

If your loader adds 500 pounds to the front end and them you fill the bucket with wet dirt that weighs 800 pounds, you are going to need at least 1300 pounds of ballast on the rear to compensate, depending on the length of the wheelbase.

It sounds like a lot, but in practice it works. Don't fall for the line some dealers will give you..."just put a box scraper on it and go to work".

That may work on 50+ HP machines but the compacts we talk about here can lift a larger percentage of their own weight than the bigger machines and need more ballast.

Example: My 4115 weighs 1700 pounds stripped of all equipment. When you add an FEL it can easily lift 800 pounds off the ground. That is more than half it's base weight.

I don't believe a 5000 pound tractor will pick up the same percentage of its own weight.

Some might disagree, but I have learned form hard experience. My 4115 carries 700 pounds of steel on its rear end for every day use. My shorter wheel base 4100 needed 1000-1100 pounds to be safe.

See my pics....#2,7,8,12 and 13 ....

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Murf
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2006-01-10          122540

Not only does ballast, and balance play huge role in stabilty, so too does circumstances.

As Ken (kwschumm) will no doubt tell you, the soil conditions, tires, etc. can play a huge roll in tractor stability. As can motion, a tractor may be quite stable on a smooth hillside, but when a tire drops into a hole, or rolls over a bump, all of a sudden everything changes in heart beat.

We routinely run tractors on slopes you can hardly walk up. The diiference being we reverse up the slope, and the operator has more hours of seat time in a month than the average homeowner gets in a lifetime.

Don't take it as gospel, or depend on it, but in my experience, the "pucker factor" far exceeds the tippiness of a CUT. The average homeowner will need a fresh pair of skivvies before the tractor gets to the point of tipping under normal conditions.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2006-01-10          122561

Murf, not everyone uses good judgement. We picked up a roll over this spring, load suspended off loader by chain extending about seven foot beyond bucket. Retired farmer saying he should have backed down the hill instead of cutting diagonal and then trying to turn down hill, this actually shortened the wheelbase on that side and did a light roll on it's side. Fortunately it was a slow roll and damage was small. Hind sight is most always 20-20! ....

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Ben
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2006-01-10          122564

Kthompson; I was'nt talking about you being on a different subject. I was talking to Bo, the post just before yours. I appreciated your message and all the other messages on this subject. I also like canoeing, but I did'nt think you guys would want me and Bo talking about it on this forum. I would like to hear more about my best options for back ballast. I like the message talking about pouring concrete around a draw bar I'll try and calculate the weight I need. Thanks, Ben ....

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bvance
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2006-01-10          122570

Ben,

I agree that if you CAN lift the tractor, then you do have a problem and you would not want to get back into the seat! My point was to ATTEMPT to lift the tractor. You can easily tell how much weight is on the uphill side of the tractor and therefore how safe you still are. I kept trying it until I could lift the uphill tire just a bit and then I knew exactly what the pucker factor felt like at that angle. And I found it's just like Murf said....my pucker factor exceeded the actual point at which the tractor will tip.

But you need to experiment with various angles until you really know what that limit is. In very careful, controlled and simulated situations with brakes on, engine off, getting off on the uphill side, you can really determine a lot of things about your personal pucker factor and your tractor's abilities. It is worth your time (and life)to do this.

....

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kthompson
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2006-01-11          122582

Ben,
SORRY. My misunderstanding and impression. Patience is good. Helps prevents all kinds of accidents.

As building someting with poured concrete, you may find old tractor weights for a very low price. That way you could adjust your needs if or as they changed.
kt ....

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Murf
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2006-01-11          122585

Ben, the down'n'dirty way to make a cheap (and exactly the weight you want) counter balance is to use a cheap plastic garbage can or plastic barrel as a form. Just use a box cutter to make two holes for the drawbar to be stuck through.

If you roughly calculate the weight you need, divide it by the weight per pound, then estimate how far up the form you have to fill it to acheive that.

When it's cured, you have two choices, leave the remainder of the container sticking up, it makes a dandy carry-all for gloves, chains, etc., or trim it off.

The plastic also helps with appearance and integrity, if you back into something the form helps hold it from cracking, it also looks more finished.

Best of luck. ....

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jjfinn
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2006-01-29          123751

In addition to all the good safety comments on this subject, I would also suggest that when you are on a slope, move your implement (in my case the backhoe bucket) to the uphill side as a counter weight. It doesn't tell you what the tip point is, but it moves the center of gravity uphill and may avoid the tip itself. But, remember to move the implement back to center or to the other side as you turn up/down slope or turn at switchback.

Also, really consider the soil and the topography. Like Ken, I had soil on the downhill side give way just as the uphill side tire was rising over a rock. Thank heavens for the seat belt. Now I walk the area first and won't go on slope with soil at risk of slipping/sliding (such as wet clay).

However, by following safety precautions, I have been able to move tons and tons of rock, wood, and soil on by fairly steeply sloped land. ....

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Mike M
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2006-03-13          126046

Do not drive around with something in the loader with it up high. Makes the tractor very tippy. ....

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lbrown59
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2006-03-21          126408

One final point I forgot to mention. If after you park your tractor on a side-hill to test the tipping point, make sure you get off on the uphill side

*Sometimes, just the way you may be distributing your weight on the seat may be keeping the uphill wheels on the ground and you would not want the tractor to roll into you as you get off.
====================

*This is exactly how my neighbors 18 years old son was killed several years ago.
He got off on the low side and his weight was just enough to tip the tractor over on him crushing him to death.


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lbrown59
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2006-03-21          126409

If you feel like things are getting hairy just STOP& get off
kwschumm
============
Get off and on from the high side.
Neighbor boy was killed getting off on the low side when his weight caused the tractor to roll over on him.
Keep in mind you don't have the ROPS or seat belt for protection when getting on or off a tractor. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-21          126437

DR

I have to somewhat disagree with your Ballast statement of what you add to the front you must compensate to the rear.
Your Ballast is going to be on the rear side of the Rear axle or pivot point, your FEL is not mounted to the front of the front axle but rather to the mid section. I would ay that a safe formula would either get a cheap set of scales to put one wheel on and see what the difference is as you add rear weight, but I would guess that ONE pound on the rear would compensate at leat 4 pounds to the front.
Our Dodge 2500 and 3500s have tow groups mounted on them mostly if they are diesel to get weight off the front so a plow can be added without exceeding axle rate ratings. Plows are mounted to the front of the axle on trucks, so don't go fully by my 4 to 1 ratio guess. I would get a scale and test to see for sure. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-03-21          126439

I am going to get a chain and a come-a-long and tie the side of my tractor to a tree. Then I am going to put a jack under it and start jacking it up and leave just about 2 inches of slack in the chain, when that chain suddenly goes tight, I will know I have exceeded my safe angle and I will come-a-long it back to Planet Earth, call it a lazy or even a weak man's idea but that is what I am going to do.
I will do it withg the FEL and BH on and BH off with rear blade on and seeinghow I will never take off my FEl or probably never will, I will only test in combinations I am using including with the tiller on.
I like that idea about the plastic barrel and the cement, that fella needs to move to Vermont, we need more good ole Yankee ingenuity here, most have moved away and been replaced by Flatlander ignorance. Or as some of you folks might refer to as plain ole stupidity. Vermont ain't in the headlines because we have the Ole Native Yankees here, naw! more cuz they have moved on and been replaced by morons. ....

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DRankin
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2006-03-21          126445

"I have to somewhat disagree with your Ballast statement of what you add to the front you must compensate to the rear."

Small Deere's are all steel and cast iron on the front half and nothing but sheet metal and aluminum in the rear. Other makes have a very different weight distribution.

You have to factor in the wheelbase numbers too. For instance, my 4100/410 (47 inch bucket) loader was patently unsafe to use without at least 1000 pounds somewhere on the rear end. With less weight the rear wheels would sometimes come completely off the ground.

The stretched out wheelbase and slightly increased weight of the 4115 needs about 600-700 pounds even with a larger capacity 53 inch bucket.

If you look at my pics, I demonstrated that I could lift the rear end of the 4100 off the ground with just the addition of some pallet forks on the bucket. There is no way I can do that with the 4115.

My BX was so short-coupled that when I pulled my 4x5 chain harrow the front end got so light that the steering didn't function. I had to carry a bucket of dirt in the FEL if I wanted to groom the gravel driveway and steer at the same time.

The 4100, on the other hand, would pull the chain harrow with no extra front weight and still had positive steering function. Longer wheel base made the difference, I think.

I don't even have think about extra forward ballast for the 4115/chain harrow combo.
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kthompson
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2006-03-21          126448

DR,

I have never even seen a chain harrow used so that might explain my question here:
How does pulling it take your front wheels off the ground (on your Kubota)? Do you pull it with lift up or down?




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Murf
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2006-03-21          126455

WW, the FEL is mounted in the middle, but it is a cantilever, the vast majority of it's weight is on the front axle, this not only loads the front wheels, it also unloads the rear wheels by leverage created when the front wheels act as the fulcrum.

Your idea of 'proving' the balance point is a little flawed. It only works to show what the STATIC balance point is. The sudden weight shift of dropping a down-slope wheel into a hole, or hitting a rock with the up-slope wheel could flip the tractor LONG before you reach your 'calculated' angle. Also, other factors, like tire slippage will affect stabilty in a big way! So too will the direction of travel, a tractor perpendicular to the slope will not be as stable on a given slope angle as it will be the further it points into the slope.

Best of luck.
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wingwiper
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2006-03-21          126460

Murf

I knew I was flawed, that is why I suggested the scales, I am sure it will NOT be a 1 to 1 ration. For instance here is a Job Rated guide result for a 3500 series Reg Cab with a 6.5 foot bed and a 5.9L I-6 Deisel engine, if you upgrade to a Automatic trans from the manual it will take 174 pounds off of the Front axle and take off 27 pounds off of the Rear Axle. That is a 6 to 1 ratio. That is from the Dodge Work book. The tow pkg adds 24 pounds to the rear and takes 4 pounds off of the front. Now add the tongue weight or a ballast box and you will decrease the front axle weight load by 4 pouns for every 24 pounds added to the rear ball. Now as you say and I agree, the FEL is mounted on the mid section of the tractor and you have the bucket on the front, and now it is time for the Calculus expert to jump in. I would guess a 1 to 1 may be too much weight on the rear and you may be lifting tires off the ground with an empty FEL and driving up a slight incline.
I remember picking up 8 New Crescoted Railroad ties in my 1989 Ram 150 PU with an 8 foot bed and they were 12 feet long and when I went up the mountain, I had to pump my brakes in order for my front wheels to hit the pavement so I could steer. ....

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kthompson
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2006-03-21          126462

And then after all of the real careful measuring you take the 100 pound kid off the tractor and the 300 pound guy gets on after he fills up the emppty fuel tank and he does not understand why the tractor handles so differently.

With the weight of some CUTs that might be a noticable change. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2006-03-21          126464

WW, my whole point was you just can't calculate it.

You can come close, but you can only nail it down if you make assumptions like the tractor is sitting still, and on a flat surface.

For instance, the ratio of weight transmitted to the front & rear axles by the FEL would change depending on whether you were going uphill or down.

The bottom line is, the tractor must be properly balanced, and ballasted, and any load should be as low as is practical.

Past that just try to keep as much weight as you can centered on the tractor, and limit sudden changes in direction, speed or load.

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2006-03-21          126465

WW, You don't need to apply calculus to make a counterweight judgement. If you put a 1000 lb load on the FEL bucket and the bucket is 10 feet ahead of the center of gravity then you need the same amount of weight 10 feet behind the initial COG to bring it back to the original position.
Dave
....

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DRankin
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2006-03-21          126483

"have never even seen a chain harrow used so that might explain my question here:
How does pulling it take your front wheels off the ground (on your Kubota)? Do you pull it with lift up or down?"

It was a combination of the weight of the harrow, the drag factor on the ground and the smallish, short coupled machine.

It just rotated enough weight off the front end to affect the steering. ....


Link:   Chain/Drag Harrow

 
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