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 | jrestill
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 28 Page County Virginia 
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2004-11-16 100410
Recently bought a magnetic block heater and even more recently learned that the oil pan on my new (130 hours) 3130HST is made of something other than steel, i.e. the magnet doesn't "stick" to it. For the life of me I can't find a flat surface to place it on any closer than the bottom of the transmission case, which is not going to do much good starting on a cold morning.
Any ideas?
I suppose I could rig some court of strapping or clamping arrangement to hold it to the oil pan, but hoping for something simpler.
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2004-11-16 100412
The oil pan is the right place for the heater. It isn't a good idea to warm the block since that will wash the cylinders of oil and dry them out. It's harder on the engine than a cold start.
You may try epoxying a piece of 1/8" steel to the bottom of the pan if there is a flat enough surface. Then stick the heater to that. And if it works, let me know, because if your 3130 has an aluminum pan, I would bet my 7800 does too. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2004-11-17 100428
I wouldn't think that you have anything to worry about with the starting of a Kubota in Virgina. I'd expect that if it was that cold there that they might as well close up the carribean for a winter time vacation land! I start them at 10 below without heaters all the time here in central NY during the winter. It is always a good conversation point as the other dealers won't even try on days like that. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-11-17 100436
JR, Art is right, we start ours up here on a regular basis in weather colder than you'll ever see down there, no problem.
If you are concerned about helping the start process a little bit, and the machine is kept inside, don't worry about a block heater, just get one of those clip on flood lamps and put a heat lamp bulb in it. Take the hood off, the right side is probably best, and clip the light to the bar that runs to the grill guard on the FEL, this will heat the entire engine by infrared heat. I know several people up here who do this, it only takes about 10-20 minutes to make a big difference in the block temperature.
Best of luck. ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-11-17 100444
beagle, I would be interested in seeing what information you have or could post a link to that contends use of a block heater "washes" the oil from the cylinders walls.
When the engine is shut down; the cylinder walls are subjected to far greater heat than any block heater could achieve during cooldown after engine shutdown. The cool down period takes several hours and during this time period it would seem to me that any oil on the cylinder walls would be "washed" off or it viscosity lowered so as to allow the oil to sluff off.
In my opinion, the block heater would have absolutely no effect upon "washing" the oil from the cylinder walls but it sure would have a beneficial effect of preheating the engine so as to provide for a RAPID engine warm up to full operation temperature as well as a maximizing the rapidity of lubricating oil warm up during the engine warm up due to transfer of heat to the oil from the preheated engine block. The preheated engine would burn fuel MUCH more efficiently during warm up and also reduce the build up of excess unburned fuel during the warm up process, thus reducing the wash down effect of excess fuel.
The use of a block heater also reduces if not eliminates the requirement for glow plug or grid heater use, which is VERY tough on batties. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-11-18 100504
Hey chief, haven't read it anyhwere, but I guess I could look. Was told this several times by two different people, one of them a Caterpillar Service rep and the other a GM test engineer. The Cat rep services over-the road Caterpillar diesels.
Just to clarify the position, block heaters are usefull for pre-heating an engine before use. Block heaters aren't recommneded ( by some, including me) for overnight or longer term storrage. There certainly is some oil loss during cool down, why aggrevate the problem further by warming the block to allow more oil wash. The whole idea of warming the oil in the pan is to assure lubrication as soon as possible during start up. If given a choice, it's better to warm the oil in the pan, and let the heat gently rise from the oil to keep the case "warm". It's alo useful to keep direct injection and indirect injection engines somewhat seperate. The difficulty during cold start is not the same for the two engines. Direct injection engines can be more difficult to cold start and may require the use of a block heater for about an hour before starting, or incomplete combustion can cause other problems. The engine we were discussing in this thread is indirect injection. At really cold temps, below -20 degrees F, both types may need some type of external heat to get full combustion, or use ether.
I'll check with my brother (Cat Rep ) to see if there is anything published.
Regards ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-11-18 100507
If oil washing off the cylinder walls was a problem with block heaters then any machine operated in southern climates would suffer considerably shortened engine life.
I have taken measurements on the block right next to where the heater unit is on my Kubota's, the highest reading I could get was still only 102° F. so the temp. would be much lower as you move away from the source of heat.
Block heaters are not very high power units and there is quite a bit of coolant and steel to absorb any heat, never mind what gets lost to the atmosphere, remember, you don't typically plug them in when it's a balmy summer day.
I suspect the heater on a Caterpillar is a slightly different, and LARGER, animal than what we are talking about here on a CUT.
Best of luck. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-11-18 100518
Murf, I would speculate that an engine stored at temperatures over 120 degrees could experience wear from washed cylinders. The block heaters I am familiar with have thermostat settings between 105 and 160 degrees. They are used for cold starts of direct injection engines.
There are a few things that are givens:
Viscosity increases with temperature
Surface tension decreases with increased temp.
Gravity will act all the time (we hope)
I'm going to stick with what seems reasonable on this one. Warm the oil in the pan for good cold start lubrication, and stay away from warming the block, except for short peroids before start up if full combustion is an issue at very low temperatures.
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 | AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin 
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2004-11-18 100522
I'm gonna have to side with Murph on this one. Beagle, if your theory is true, all the vehicles in the hot southwest should have worn out motors from just sitting outside in the summer sun. How hot does it get under the hood in New Mexico in the summer, even with the engine off?
All of our military hardware over in the sandbox right now must be in bad shape too, then. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA 
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2004-11-18 100523
beagle, you said " Direct injection engines can be more difficult to cold start and may require the use of a block heater for about an hour before starting". I have found the opposite to be true. Indirect injection is the cheapo version of a diesel and is difficult to start. Direct inection is far easier to start in winter. I have even found this to be the case in my own collection, and given the choice would always choose direct injection. ....
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 | grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-11-19 100539
My Kubota starts well below zero even when I forget to plug in the block heater,and have to get out of the driveway.
I run K-1 in the winter. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-11-19 100547
Looks like I'm getting a lot of support on this thing :). I stand alone, but not lonely. I haven't heard anything yet that would lead me to change my position.
The thought that engines stored at high temperatures must be taking a beating is exactly my postion. I would bet they are (IMHO).
I'm still going to see if there is anything published on this issue.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-11-19 100553
This is very complex and covers a lot of bases here with Beagles comments. I would not recommend anyone leaving a block heater plugged in for more then needed! From what I've seen in the dairy industry here you are looking for a fire! To warm the oil is a good point, but a diesel won't start at all if it isn't warm enough to cause an explosion from compression when cold so the warmest oil won't help till the starter and the battery are dead. A point nobody ever mentions is the cold pour point of the oil you are using! An old boy in the mechanical field (construction Equipment) told me thirty years ago to put a quart of oil in the freezer and see how it pours after a day, if it doesn't then you don't want it in your engine! Most all oils built today should come thru this with flying colors today and for the better oils they often are down into the -100F range although many products stop at -50 degrees. Good oils leave a lubricationg residue on the parts they come into contact with and I'd say the heat would not make any difference to them that even a 200 degree thermostat would give as most engines run well over 300 degree's internally while running even at there coldest temps. ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-11-19 100554
I lived in Phoenix for 25 years, worked on cars for a good percentage of that time and have never heard of this oil wash-down theory. Engines there seem to last as long as anywhere else (as long as the cooling system is kept in working order) and summertime temps there are often in the 110-115 degree range. We got more than 200k miles out of some Buick gas engines in the 60s and 70s with no oil related problems and little oil consumption. I'm skeptical, but it sure makes for an interesting discussion. ....
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| cthonestguy
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 267 northeast
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2004-11-19 100603
Might as well throw my 2 cents in while we are at it. Here is a little test that anyone can do to blow the whole idea apart. Take a quart of oil and dump 1/2 of it out (hopefully inot a machine) cap it and shake the life out of it and put it on the shelf. Let it sit there for a week and then take a razor knife and zip the top off and feel the side- bone dry. The same thing happens to an engine. yes there is a thin coat but for the most part gravity takes its action and the oil all ends up in the pan anyway.
Block heaters are good if you have an old machine. I've been in the trucking business for 20+ years and these new engines don't need to be "plugged" in like the old days and as Art says oil is much better and flows quicker these days. Sounds good but I don't buy it on my end. Do the $2.00 test and you will see for yourself. Cold or hot the side will be dry in a week or less. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-11-20 100637
When they start making engines out of plastic I will believe that test. Plastic and metal have different properties. burn cheese is a cast iron pan and then in a teflon pan. Did you get different results cleaning it. ....
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| cthonestguy
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 267 northeast
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2004-11-20 100640
Denwood, put it in a cast iron can, teflon can, soda can or any metal and shake it like it's a bottle of milk and let it sit for a week. The sides are gonna be bone dry. The last point I was trying to make was that engines are plastic. Try it, maybe a few "know it all" guys will be amazed. Block heaters will not wash down the oil. Gravity will. Yes there will be a coating but after time it's as thin as my hairline from gravity!
Plastic, metal rock, anything you can find with a smooth surface will prove my point. I guess it's too simple of a test for some people but it is in fact true. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-11-20 100643
I don't believe a heater will wash down the oil but for reference, when I spill Diesel on a smooth surface, and it is a petroleum product far thinner than motor oil, it seems to stay for a long time. Usually long enough for me to forget it was there and then end up with it on my clothing, Then it gradually collects dust and becomes even more permenant. Oil certainly doesn't leave a thick layer but a film inside the engine. ....
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 | Archdean
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 279 Oklahoma
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2004-11-20 100652
Aren't you gentlemen overlooking that cylinders are not honed smooth but in fact have microscopic grooves and infact cast iron is porous for the very reason of oil retention?? ....
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| botamac
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 71 MI
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2004-11-20 100653
I've been reading this topic for a while now and I would have to side with Archdean on this one.# 1 rings function as the seal between the piston and the cylinder wall and also act to reduce friction by minimizing the contact area between the piston and the cylinder wall. The rings are usually made of cast iron and coated with chrome or molybdenum. Most diesel engine pistons have several rings, usually 2 to 5, with each ring performing a distinct function. The top ring(s) acts primarily as the pressure seal. The intermediate ring(s) acts as a wiper ring to remove and control the amount of oil film on the cylinder walls. The bottom ring(s) is an oiler ring and ensures that a supply of lubricating oil is evenly deposited on the cylinder walls. # 2 Anti-friction additives reduce friction below that of the base oil alone under conditions of boundary lubrication. The additives are adsorbed on, or react with the metal surface or its oxide to form monolayers of low shear strength material. ....
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| AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-21 100665
Okay. Let's throw a hypothetical situation out there. ( this is how my feeble mind would see it.)
OAT (outside air temp) -20° F
3 identical diesel powered widgets sitting overnight outside.
One has a block heater on all night, one has a oil pan heater on all night the 3rd has nothing.
Which will start better?
Will the oil have "washed" off the cylinders? Yes, for all three. The most for the block heated engine.
The motor with no heating is now a solid block which won't run until spring. (I think we all agree on that.)
The heated oil engine will lubricate itself better while cranking with the warm oil from the pan, but will it effect the way it starts? Glow plugs/heat screen will need to operate longer, draining battery, engine will have to turn more also draining battery. The oil will "cool" in the motor's oil passages because of the large cold block, slowing it and causing yet more cranking to be needed. The injected fuel may not burn right away because of the colder combustion chambers, adding the solvent properties of the fuel to clean the cylinder walls, possibly overcoming the lubricity of the warmed oil.
The unheated motor now has 3 camp stoves under it trying to get it to turn at all.
Block heated engine will have a "warmer" block, heads and even oil pan than a motor with nothing. The oil won't be as warm as the heated oil motor, but will be warmer than the motor with nothing. With warmer oil passages in the block, the oil will "warm" as it is circulated in the block heated motor. The warmer block and head(s) will allow the motor to start with less use of glow plugs /heat screen and combustion will result with less effort because of the warmer combustion chamber.
Find a fire extinguisher because those camp stoves have now lit the third widget on fire! But, it still won't start.
Personally, I will still use my block heaters. I have never owned something with an oil pan heater, so I guess I don't know what I'm missing. 300K on the '86 VW, 60K on the '01 VW and 175K on the Cummins all with liberal use of their block heaters and they haven't ground themselves away (yet). ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-11-21 100668
I normally like to see block heaters be effective in less then an hour. I don't know why I'd want to increase my electric bill. I'd never figure on more then two hours and depending on timing I might just add a timer. Murf's thoughts about the light are good especailly when able to be close to the intake manifold to assist with warming the air going into the cylinder. Other then a fire hazard with using the camp stoves a blaket or two over the hood help holds in the heat! ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-11-22 100713
A lot of interesting thoughts. Talked to the Cat Rep (brother) over a couple beers this weekend and opened the can of worms with him. His opinion from what he has seen over the years;
Direct injection engine blocks should be warmed below 20 degrees for about an hour. Leaving the heater on over night or for extended periods just doesn't make sense. It will speed the oil wash from the block, and serves no usefull purpose. Warm the oil with the block or with an oil warmer. Lubricating an engine at cold start is the most important thing you can do, as long as you can start it. With the newer directs, the injection presssures are getting high enough that cold starting is a lot easier than it used to be.
"Those little indirects" don't need much help until about -20 degrees. You should be able to warm it enough with the glow plugs unless it is below zero. Warm the oil so you have good lubrication at cold start. The idea that oil will wash from a warm block is just common sense, he couldn't remember if he had any literature that addressed the issue directly.
He re-iterated what was mentioned earlier, that a good amount of the oil washes during cool down, and that you want to overcome this lack of oil at start up, and that this problem exists for all engines. It doesn't mean instant death, it just leads to increased wear. If you want to get as much life out of your engine as you can, keep it well lubricated, especially at cold start.
Just another opinion, but seems sensible enough. ....
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| AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-22 100718
Easy now guys,
"...one has a block heater on all night, one has a oil pan heater on all night the 3rd has nothing..."
was just a hypothetical example used to exaggerate the point. ;))
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-11-24 100933
- I wouldn't say indirect injection is a "cheapo" engine, just an older (and quieter) way of doing things. Without today's high-tech electronics, indirect was the way to go in the past.
- As far as this block heater chat, the only correct thing to do (sorry if someone said this I may have missed it) is to return the magnetic heater and if you are set on having one at all, install a freeze plug heater (preferrably) or an in-line coolant heater which warms the coolant not the oil. This is the way to do it right.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-11-24 100935
IMHO the suggestion that to "return the magnetic heater" is the "only correct thing to do" is blatantly wrong.
Especially in light of the popularity of HST units these days.
A magnetic heater on the TX sump in low temp.'s makes a world of difference on the oil and the warm-up speed in general. There is a lot of oil there which translates into that much more cold thermal mass to have to warm up.
In the greater scheme of things a couple of hundred watt magnetic heater will never do any harm to the TX, especially considering almost all of them are thermostatically controlled.
I do not suggest however that the mag. heater on the TX necessarily be the ONLY source of heat.
Best of luck. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-11-24 100939
hehe Well i can agree that if you want to plug in two things, go ahead and warm the oil as long as it is not a dipstick type but I assumed we were talking one vs. the other, in which case a coolant heater is the way to go, or at least it has been in every industrial diesel (and gas) engine I've ever seen in my 25+ years here in Maine.
The coolant warmth will actually circulate through the engine but that warm oil is staying in the pan, until it is suddenly thrust into a stone-cold block on startup. And of course the oil near the heater will be much warmer than the oil, say in the other corner of the pan abd this will reduce the life of the oil and it's additives IMO.
I agree it would be nice to have warm oil as well but between the two I personally will warm the block.
:)
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-11-24 100940
ps I take that back there was one small diesel that I remember having a mag pan heater on...but that was only because it was air-cooled! hehe ....
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| JD855inWI
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 38 Mid East Wisconsin
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2004-11-24 100946
Anybody ever see a pre-luber. Hydo pump that runs off the back of starter, pumps oil to all the right places before kicking the bendix in and turning over the engine. Usually reserved for the big blocks or guys who love there stuff. I've one on my old Vette. No dry bearings or valve trains. ....
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| AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-24 100948
Why not just park it in a heated garage?? :) ....
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| 414434
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8 merrimack nh
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2004-11-29 101250
Problem solved--if your going to run the machine in the winter, build a water transfer system from the old car, house or pickup to the tractor. While your having your coffee, the hot water will make the tractor think it's july ....
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 | AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2004-11-29 101258
Assuming engineers at JD put at least some thought into this problem, here is their solution for a JD 4300 hydro. I know this because I happen to have one with BOTH (all) heaters.
One 400 watt heater screwed directly into the side of the engine block so that the element (about the size of a dollar coin) is in direct contact with the engine coolant. I know this because when I unscrewed it coolant poured out. There is no thermostat (when its plugged in its on). After a couple of hours the whole engine block seems uniformly warm (reletively), from oil pan at bottom to valve cover at the top and either side.
One 150 watt heater placed in the intake for the suction line of the hydro fluid at the bottom of the rear axle and transmission resevior, again no thermostat.
Instructions are as follows: Below 20F turn heaters on.
Are JD engineers as varied in their opinions as to the merits of heaters in this configuration as we seem to be? I hope (assume) they knew what they were doing. ....
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