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 | Mike Lane
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-12-29 46674
I am looking at buying a 2001 Kubota L2600DT with 40 hours on it. I intend to mow my 10 acres with it. I am told that it does not have a live PTO and that I need one for mowing.
Why is that? Can't you just spin the blades up to speed in Neutral and then put it in gear and go? Why are so many people telling me to get a live PTO?
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| larry
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 0 St.Davids
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2002-12-29 46679
I think live PTO means you have a 2 stage clutch that when depressed keeps the pto spinning but allows you to change gears.Without it whenever you depress the clutch the implement you have attached will stop working also. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2002-12-29 46680
I don't think that would work, at least not without a whole bunch of gear grinding when you jump from neutral to a forward gear with all that transmission and cutter mass already spinning.
Many people use geared tractors for mowing with little problem you just have to understand that the forward(or rearward) motion and the blades turning begins at the same instant.
Use the search function on the site tool-bar and check the archives. ....
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| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. 
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2002-12-29 46684
Mike,
If your going to mow tight areas with a lot of starting and stopping,you will want the live PTO.
But for field mowing or a larger yard (little starting and stopping) the non-live PTO works fine.
I engage my PTO at idle,pick the gear I am going to mow in.
Gradually let out the clutch,slowly increase throttle till my mower is up to speed and MOW !
I have a 1978 JD 850 (non-live PTO)I used to mow my field,and lawn for years,worked for me !! ....
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-12-29 46688
You can live without a live PTO. Just be sure to have an overrunning clutch installed between the implement driveshaft and the PTO output shaft on your tractor. This handy gizmo keeps the mower from pushing the tractor when stopping. Available at Tractor Supply Company, etc.
I think the non-live PTO is technically called a "transmission PTO".
Bill ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-12-30 46703
A live one is pretty important for me. The chute on my snow blower clogs easily unless I run the blower long enough to clear snow off the auger when stopping the tractor. It wouldn't be a huge problem though. I could shift to neutral and let the clutch out to keep the blower running.
I imagine that cutters have more inertia then my blower and would tend to clear themselves if PTO power was interrupted, but live PTO still might be good. The cutter might leave 'chewed patches' when shifting while cutting heavy brush.
I have an optional TX with synchromesh and live-PTO on my Ford 1710. The standard TX has a TX driven PTO. It also has an internal over-running clutch that makes an external clutch unnecessary. The L2600 may well have a built-in clutch as well.
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2002-12-30 46719
Those electric activated independent PTOs are sweet. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-12-30 46722
Having had all three, I would look for the independent all things being equal. You can live with the transmission driven for mowing as long as you are not backing up a lot.
Peters ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-12-30 46724
"Having had all three, I would look for the independent all things being equal. You can live with the transmission driven for mowing as long as you are not backing up a lot."
Why do you say that, Peters? I do a fair amount of forward and reverse on some sloped ares...haven't had any issues (except one always misses a small area during reversing). Now, my clutch is a single stage...next tractor will have a dual stage.
That said, I'd much rather have the Live PTO...just not enough to pay for the hydro tranny.
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-12-30 46732
The Independent PTO's are nice, but it is nice to be able to push the clutch all they way down and stop everything with one motion if things get fouled, as opposed to pressing the clutch and killing the PTO with a different control.
Back to the posting subject though... if you get a tractor with a transmission driven PTO an overrunning clutch is a necessity in my opinion. A spinning bushhog can push you into a fence or over a hill. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-12-30 46735
Slow Rev.
A transmission driven PTO is connected to the transmission with a single stage clutch. As you stated with the PTO connected the momentum from the turning implement can push the tractor along.
A live PTO has a 2 stage clutch that drives the PTO and the transmission separately.
An independent has a separate drive that can be switched on and off without the need for the clutch.
Roy;
The main problem with the transmission driven PTO is that the momentum of the mower can cause it difficult to shift from forward to reverse. As you mention the other problem is that you can miss areas as the mower speed back up as you shift.
I certainly changed the way that I mowed after I switched to an independent PTO. I trimmed less and reversed the tractor a lot more to cut under and near trees.
You can purchase tractors with independent PTO and manual transmissions. The NH larger TCs and the Kioti DK do off the top of my head. I am sure there are others. ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-12-31 46739
"The main problem with the transmission driven PTO is that the momentum of the mower can cause it difficult to shift from forward to reverse. As you mention the other problem is that you can miss areas as the mower speed back up as you shift."
I guess since I come to a full stop before shifting, I've not noticed this condition (running a 5' RFM and a 4' cutter). Shifting is rather slow and deliberate, however.
Now, missing a bit of grass as the mower blades speed up is a bit of an issue...I'll grant that.
As mentioned, the next machine will have a dual stage clutch unless I get a super deal on a hydro (I buy used).
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 | marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2002-12-31 46746
Gentlemen,
Reguardless, of dual clutch or independent PTO, it is important to have seperate contol over the PTO. Saftey is the major consideration here. Yes, overrunning couplers are available and it helps but there is no braking capacity in one whereas independent PTO's are mandated to have a brake and two stage clutches can effectively brake as well. Serious users also know that single stage, non independent clutches wear out at a much faster rate (2-4X's faster). Ithas to handle 2 work loads at the same time. This is more important in the smaller tractors like the one mentioned because at best, there is only a 6 or 7 inch clutch in one. Simple objectivity rules out transmission run PTO's for most people. ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-12-31 46751
Get an Independant PTO. Period.
While it is nice to have the clutch stop everything (two stage clutch). While mowing, an Independant PTO will alow you more control. ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-12-31 46752
"Serious users also know that single stage, non independent clutches wear out at a much faster rate (2-4X's faster)."
"Simple objectivity rules out transmission run PTO's for most people."
I don't think you'll find any factual data to back up either of these statements. How did you determine single stage clutches wear out faster then dual stage? One or two mechanics? Not a large enough sample for viability...
If they're opinion...no problem. But state them as opinion...not "fact".
Everything is a trade off (my opinion)...Live PTO normally equates to hydro trannys on CUT's, hence power losses and higher initial costs. Determining the priorities of each user depends on their individual circumstances. My next tractor will most likely have a dual stage clutch (probably a Deere 790). I know I'll pay more for it's replacement (then a single stage unit), but I don't expect it to last any longer then a single stage clutch. But I'm also looking for a bit more power then my 670 (for a chipper). Personally, I'm not in a big enough hurry to justify a hydro tranny for my limited loader operations.
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-12-31 46755
Live/independent PTO's do not relate to hydro's if you look at the Kioti's, Mahindra's, or some of the other brands.
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| larry
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 0 St.Davids
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2002-12-31 46757
My Cub 7274 has a 2 stage clutch-live pto ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-12-31 46764
Roy;
If your next tractor is a 790 then it will not have a 2 stage clutch unless they change the transmission they have used on that for the last 20 years.
Peters ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-12-31 46766
The dual stage was optional on the 670 (indicated in the owner's manual and another 670 owner I know has the 2 stage clutch on her '98 670), 770 and on the 790 MFWD models (in fact, it might be standard on the 4WD 790 machine). I priced converting mine (there's an old thread on CTB concerning this), but it's cost prohibitive.
Although the 790 is my target, I really buy based upon price...who knows what I end up with. ....
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| jyoutz
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 48
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2002-12-31 46777
Yes the 4wd JD 790 comes standard with a dual stage clutch. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-01 46783
I guess that it comes from twenty years of turning wrenches on tractors, particularly at dealerships! You should figure out that one clutch handling two jobs can't last as long as one clutch handling one job. It is a cheaper way to manufacture tractors. From 15 to 250hp tractors, I have used them all. I also have farmed 600 acres of produce and cut flowers. I think that should clear up the matter of where my statement comes from.
Let's break this down: when you engage transmission and pto at the same time more slippage on the clutch occurs due to increased loads on tansmisssion because of the additional load of PTO AND implement. I have replaced a lot of compact tractor clutches because of this. Some of them have also been replaced because of the problem with the Nut between the steering wheel and the seat:) A lot of damage can be done due to OI.(operator ignorance)
However, if you look at the earlier tractors by Ford (8N 600, etc.) and some IH( cub, C, etc.) and do your research as I have, you will find the reason they stopped making single clutch or non independent PTO tractors. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-01-01 46793
According to JD specs the PTO is transmission driven and there is not option given in their literature. I don't know how they expect to sell it if there is no sales literature on it. Stranger things can happen.
The transmission case and assembly is the same as the old 750 I owned which definately was not a 2 stage clutch. ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-01-01 46805
"However, if you look at the earlier tractors by Ford (8N 600, etc.) and some IH( cub, C, etc.) and do your research as I have, you will find the reason they stopped making single clutch or non independent PTO tractors."
I believe the L series Kubotas still use single stage clutches. The 790 and 990 Deeres (2WD) use single stage clutches. Don't know about the New Hollands or gear driven "B" series Kubotas.
Doesn't appear single stage clutches are obsolete...
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-01-01 46807
The following was copied directly from the SPECS link for the Deere 790 tractor:
Transmission
Std Transmission; Forward/Reverse
Sliding Gear 8/2
Left-Hand Reverser
No
On-The-Go Shifting (Yes/No/Partial)
No
Direction Reverser; Forward/Reverse
No
Clutch; (Wet/Dry )
Dry: Single Stage(2WD) / 2 Stage(4WD)
Creeper
No
So, the single stage clutch is still being used, and the dual stage clutch is available on the 790. The owner's manual will probably state the dual stage is optional for the 2WD machines and standard on the 4WD units.
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-01 46808
They have recently made a resurgence due to tractor companies needing something cheaper to sell. They are selling these tractors to compete with Mahindra, Kioti, Belarus, Eicher, Long etc. Many of which are cheaper and come equipped with dual stage or independent PTO. A statement was made about independent PTO's being mostly Hydraulic. The vast majority of Independent PTO's are not Hydrostatic.
They are run straight off the flywheel into a clutch pak similar to a clutch in a motor cycle. Some are planetary and involve shifting a brake band back and forth to engage and disengage PTO. ....
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| marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-01 46809
There were some old lawsuits, many settled out of court on tractors that had single stage clutches.(Saftey and negligence issues). If you check out the Mahindra base model, it has a single stage clutch, but they are now "giving" a overunning clutch on their tractors to help prevent legal issues and obviously to increase saleability. I have talked to some of the majors company reps on these issues. Everyone wants to ride the wave till they get burned. ....
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| Roy Jackson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-01-02 46824
In response to Mike Lane's intial question..do you need Live or independent PTO? Nope...
Is Live or Independent preferable? No doubt about it!! We all concur on that.
But, if the 2600 Kubota matches your nbeeds otherwise, and is a good price...go for it, Mike!
BTW, when I initially engage the PTO lever, I'm at idle RPM. But, when shifting from a forward gear to reverse, I don't slow down the engine. On a gear tranny, it is going to be a bit slower and more deliberate. Can you live with that? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-01-02 46829
Always something when lawyers are involved. A safety issue other than than the mover pushing somebody down a bank is a mover sitting with the blades spinning for quite awhile after a pto is disengaged and the engine shut down.
I guess that there's nothing keep an implement from just winding down if the drive is disengaged or there's an over-running clutch in the drive line. I don't know but maybe that's why hydraulic PTO brakes were added. I wonder if there'll ever be a law suite because somebody was injured trying while trying to connect a PTO shaft while the engine was running because they couldn't rotate the drive to line up the coupling while the brake is on.
I wonder if some of the redesigns are motivated by manufacturers deciding that the standard compact is one with HST and all gear compacts are economy models? If so, then why make an economy model with a TX driven PTO and a luxury economy model with live PTO when it probably easier to steer many owners into HST' tractor.
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