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 | Mike1819
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 56 OHIO 
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2004-10-21 98980
I just purchased a used JD 4700 with 460 FEL with 360 hrs. I have a lot of brush, limbs and small downed trees to clean up. Any suggestions on which is better the grapple or 4 in 1 bucket?
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 | hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa 
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2004-10-22 98992
Mike1819: I had a Deere grapple on a Deere full size farm tractor. We had lots of old fencerow wire, posts, brush, rocks, you name it to move. It done a great job for the task I was dealing with. It was just a bit clumbsy for most other smaller jobs, so I sold it and put a Deere 4 in 1 bucket on the 430 loader. The 4 in 1 is a bit small for big brush jobs, but it seems to make up for that limitation doing dirt work, fine grading and that sort of thing. I'd say the 4 in 1 just has more potential uses that a grapple unless you have hay bales to move, grapples are great for that. Just my experience. Frank. ....
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| lbrown59
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2004-10-23 99114
What is a ?
4 in 1 bucket
grapple bucket ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-10-23 99137
Ibrown59: A grapple is an attachment for a front end loader bucket. They are used to keep bulky things such as brush, big round bales and other things in the bucket by pivoting a fork like attachment that closes down hydraulicly to the cutting edge of the bucket holding loose things in the bucket to carry them to where you want them. Then when you raise the fork attachment up away from the bucket edge the bulky material falls out. A 4 in 1 bucket is more of a landscape tool. The floor and the sides of the bucket are controled by a hydraulic cylinder on each end of the bucket that will pivot the floor and sides up out of the way turning your bucket into a basic dozer blade. Kinda think of it as a pac man looking thing that opens and closes to grab things in it's mouth and carry them away. I use mine a lot when digging out smaller trees with the backhoe on the rear of the tractor then with the 4 in 1 on the loader just turn around, open the 4 in 1 and push a few small trees together, close the bucket till it grabs and holds them and carry them awaw without ever getting of the seat to load the brush on the bucket. The first 4 in 1's I remember seeing were back in the late 50's when the Drott company built them for full size dozers, I was fascinated to watch what a skilled operator could do with one of them, from leveling dirt to grabing junk cars and stacking them. Hope this somewhat explains the functions of the grapple and the 4 in 1. Frank. ....
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| Mike1819
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 56 OHIO
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2004-10-24 99149
Thanks for the info. I'm trying to decide exactly what I need without paying alot of money that won't do the job at hand.
How large of items like small trees etc. will a 4 in 1 bucket pick up? ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-10-24 99154
Mike1819: I'm not sure if Deere uses the same 4 in 1 bucket for a 460 loader as they sell for the 430's, possibly it's a heavier bucket for your machine. One 3 in. diamater tree 15 ft. tall with a root ball the size of a bushel basket is about the limit on my 4310 and 430 loader, but I can gather and pick up five or six one inch trees at a time. It takes a little practice to gather and grab, but you'll get the hang of it. I try to spend a few days every spring or late fall after harvest using the 4310 W/48 hoe and the 4 in 1 taking saplings out of the fence rows before they become big chain saw type trees. Some how a chain saw used to be kind of a fun thing to operate, but becoming "Mature", not "Old", has given me a different view of chain saws. Hope this helps. Frank. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA 
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2004-10-27 99344
I like both kinds of buckets but favor the 4 in 1 slightly for versatility. It will more easily grab small items like a single shrub or small tree still in the ground and rip it out, old wire fence grown into the weeds. You can also grab a long RR tie and use it to level loose dirt more quickly. Its also nice to use open to bulldoze. 4 in 1 truly is. ....
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| Mike1819
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 56 OHIO
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2004-10-27 99345
I have some bigger stuff lying on a down hill slope. Which would work best for getting this type of stuff out in the open where I can do something with it? How large of a tree can you grab with your 4 in1? With your grapple? ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-10-27 99348
A word of advise about 4-in-1 or grapple buckets.
As an example, the average CUT of this size has a FEL with a MAXIMUM capacity of about 1500 pounds. This is in a perfect world, with maximum counter balance on the 3pth. In reality, half that is a good 'working' capacity, in this case about 750 pounds.
If you add a 4-in-bucket to a machine of this class to the FEL you are adding at least another 300 pounds to the weight of the FEL itself, thereby reducing the useful payload of the FEL by the same amount.
The volume capacity of a 4-in-1 is usually a LOT less than with a standard bucket of the same width. If you normally use it for light bulky material this could be a real PITA.
I have a 4-in-1 on my full-sized TLB, but wouldn't consider putting one one my 'Bota, the forks do everything I need it to, when I need a 4-in-1 it's because I need serious muscle. I doubt a CUT would have the up-force required to tear much of a tree out of the ground, even if the 4-in-1 would grab it well enough to do that on a small machine.
Best of luck. ....
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| Mike1819
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 56 OHIO
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2004-10-27 99352
Murf,
What is your recommendation? Grapple or 4 in 1? The dealer told me that the capacity of the 460 FEL on the 4700 is about 2300#?? Since this is a large frame chassis, would I run into the same thing you're talking about?
Is there something better to do this with? ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-10-27 99353
A grapple of comparable size will have more capacity for large logs. you just need to see how big the opening is on the 4 in 1 you are considering and if it has some teeth on the outter edges. There are buckets designed for cuts and made lighter than industrial duty,but the 460 loader has a rating comparable to mid size skid loaders and its breakout is somewhere around 3800 lbs? That breakout is all usable strength if the tractor is counterbalanced correctly. ....
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 | reason201
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 91 Nebraska
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2004-10-27 99354
I guess it all depends on how fast you need to move these trees. I had to clean up a lot of tree damage this spring after tornados came through. I used the regular bucket with hooks welded on top and log chains to move the bigger items (10" diameter 8'-10' long) and piled most of the other items either in or on the 460 bucket. My 4710 never had any issue picking up these items.
Don't remember if you listed how big the trees you wanted to move were. Might be worth a couple of chain saw cuts to make a big tree into two easier to handle pieces rather than buy another bucket. Not sure if you need additional hydrolics for the 4 in 1 or not.
Good luck... ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-10-27 99355
Mike, first off you need to look at 'lift capacity' with a rather skeptical eye.
A lot of 'lift' ratings are measured AT the pin where the bucket mounts, not IN the bucket. Of course the farther you go out from that point the less you can lift.
Add to all that the 'capacity' as expressed is always a MAXIMUM and not a realistic, subjective number, just a theoretical figure based on the raw physics of it all.
Many years ago at a trade show I challenged a manufacturers rep. giving me a demo to lift what he had just told me the machine was capable of. When he tried the first time the machine wouldn't do it, it seems the rating was expressed as being at X psi but the factory had the relief valve set way below that. A techie fixed that and he tried again, even with the recommended ballast the load din't go up, the back of the unit, operator and all, went up instead. We gradually reduced the load till it went up, we had to reduce the load to almso 2/3rds of what it was 'rated' to lift before we succeeded.
The other problem is they often rate CUT's & FEL's seperately, that is to say, they rate the XXX FEL to lift 2,000# but only rate the YYY tractor to lift 1,500#.
Having said all that, my 'Bota is about the same size and I would be very surprised to see it lift 1,500 pounds let alone 2,300 or 3,800 pounds.
I would say that if general clean-up is your goal you have a couple of options.
First, forks are indispensible, ask anyone who has them and they will say they are about the most commonly used attachement they have. They are even more usefull if you have some sort of grapple above them.
Second I would say would be add-on grapples that mount on your existing bucket, great for scooping brush piles, manure, etc., anything bulky that wants to fall out of the bucket.
Last of all, a grapple, good for anything that doesn't fit in the above categories, but a compromise, and as the old saying goes "do a lot of things, but NONE of them very well".
Best of luck.
....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-10-27 99358
I agree, the ratings manufacturers give are almost meaningless in the real world. They are best used to compare one loader to another. My kubota's lifting capacity is 1625 pounds with forks, but I routinely lift pallets weighing over 3500 pounds and that is way past the hinge pins. Its tipping load is 3870 with forks and that is where I am at so I added additional counter weights I occasionally lift over 4000 lbs and it basically rides on the front wheels. Breakout strength has not been reached yet so the hydraulics keep going no matter what it is rated for. ....
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