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 | Z51FX3ZF6
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4 
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2004-08-03 92623
I got my new 4115 with the 53” FEL and 46 backhoe in the middle of May. I have a hydraulic problem that is driving me, and the dealer, crazy and I’m looking for help/suggestions. There is about 28 hours on the machine now, half by me and the other half by the dealer trying to fix the following problem.
The backhoe boom arm keeps dropping while I’m working. The boom arm will drop from full height to having the backhoe bucket hitting the ground. The dipper arm stays in position but the bucket will also drop about 2”-3” from the full curl up position. Also the outriggers have some minor drop and the FEL uncurls slightly. I’m hauling stone in the FEL and the ground I’m going over is pasture, so it’s not extremely rough, but it’s not as smooth as pavement either. The rate of drop seems to increase as the work day goes on. With the FEL bucket full of stone, this sometimes will happen over about an 800’ distance. It’s to the point that I have to reach around and raise the boom arm at the end of each run.
This has been going on since I got it. The dealer service it at about 6 hours and replaced the boom arm cylinder and one of the outrigger cylinders, saying that they weren’t within spec. I got it back with 11 hours and the problem was slightly better. They took it back with about 14 hours and rebuilt the control valve. They said they got the overnight drift to less than an inch per hour, which is within spec. I got it back with 21 hours and the problem is not much better.
I’ve never had a CUT before so I don’t know if I’m being unrealistic as to what to expect when using it. Should it be expected that with the bouncing across a field that the hoe arm, or other hyraulics, will drop some? Will a heavier viscosity hydraulic fluid help since it seems that as the fluid gets warmer the drop gets faster? I'm sure that when the dealer tests it in his lot the tractor hasn’t been running for an hour in 90 degree heat with a full FEL and isn’t bouncing across a field, so how can a real world test be performed? The dealer has been great to work with and is waiting to hear back from me since I just got it back for the second time. I wanted some other thoughts/advice before I call him since he and the JD service rep are running out of ideas. Thanks for any help.
Jim
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2004-08-03 92626
This is purely a guess. If the valve was poorly machined and they rebuilt it by replacing internal seals, etc. it still could leak. As parts are manufactured machine tools must be maintained within tolerance, otherwise excessive runout will occur and round holes could end up excessively large or even oval shaped. I'd ask 'em to replace it with a brand new part. ....
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2004-08-03 92632
Another pure guess here, but your problems seem to be during operation. The dealer has checked leak down, and says it tested to spec. I would look into a bad pressure relief valve or possibly even pump failure. Since leak down isn't an issue, the system seems to be having problems maintaining pressure during operation. A bad relief could be causing your problems. Another possibility is an air leak or plugged screen on the suction side of the system causing air or cavitation in the lines, and pump pressure loss.
Suggested (guessed at) order of attack:
Plugged suction screen
Leak on the suction side of the system
pressure relief valve
pump failure
Good luck and keep us posted.
A suggeste ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-08-03 92648
Draining the low-vis and refilling with regular Hygard will help some..... but you have a bigger problem than that.
My 4115/410/46 does the same thing...... but about 20 times slower, and therefore quite tolerable.
There is something stuck or out of spec with the internals of the tractors hydraulic system. But start by asking your dealer exactly which brand and type of fluid is in the sump. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-08-04 92655
A couple of thoughts: I don't know how hot the oil is getting but if you grab the hose going to the hoe and it's too hot to hold then maybe you're overworking the hydraulics. If it's temp problem, as Mark mentioned, some oils maintain their high temp viscosity better than others but just slowing down the work a bit may be better.
I don't know how much the tractor is bouncing around when doing the loader work and I assume the dealer checked relief pressures on the hoe valve and the tractor system relief. It's possible that shock loads when hitting bumps are enough to open a relief valve that's set to spec--especially if the hoe isn't fully retracted during transport. You might see if going slower slows the leak-down. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-08-04 92671
OK... I re-read this post and I wonder how the boom can be drooping if the transport pin is in place? The bucket can't hit the ground unless the boom is moving and the boom can't move with the pin in place.
Seems you are missing a vital part.
It is normal for to have to trim things up every hour or so while doing loader work. The bucket will uncurl a couple inches and the outriggers will drift a little too... that is not a problem. It is also normal for the FEL to drift with a heavy load in it and the engine running.
When I separate the backhoe from the tractor and store it, the outrigger arms will droop all the way to the ground over the course of a couple days if I don't tie them up.
Unless I am missing something, I think you are missing a locking pin. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-08-04 92727
I re-read this also. I thought I heard that the FEL AND the boom arm where dropping. It wouldn't be normal for the FEL to drop that much over a 800' run, even full. Is this isolated to the boom arm? Please clarify. ....
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| Z51FX3ZF6
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4
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2004-08-05 92825
I guess I am a moron. I didn't realize that it was necessary to keep the transport pins in at all times except when running the backhoe itself. I didn't see this in the manual and they didn't tell me that when they ran me through the tractor setup.
What's funny is that when I first thought I had a problem, I asked the salesman if the pins needed to be in and he said they shouldn't have to be, that the boom arm should stay up by itself. After reading your guys posts, today I talked to the technician at the dealer who had worked on it. He said yes the pins should be in at all times. He also said that they had replaced two cylinders and several valves because they weren't within spec. Makes me lose a little confidence in the dealer (and JD rep they talked to) since a little better explanation could have saved both of us a lot of hassle and time. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-08-05 92833
There is no slight on your intelligence here. We all had to learn somewhere. Maybe thats why I went through three tractors in three years.
Membership on CTB and just one tractor would have been a lot cheaper.
I am pleased we could help you. Stay on-board and pass on your growing experience to others. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-08-06 92839
My #48 hoe is getting a lot of use hours acumulated by now since it was new. While on the tractor one outrigger will drop to ground over night the other one doesn't, the boom will settle about half way and the curl will change too. The # 430 loader bucket cylinders will droop a bit, but the boom cylinders never drop a speck even overnight. That's just been the nature of the beast since it was new, nothing settles any faster now than it did on day one. In the meantime the hoe and loader were transfered from a 4300 to the 4310, the same cylinders settle the same amount on the ten series as they did on the double zero series. I've had lots of farm equipment that one machine will settle and another would hold up for weeks. With such a small amount of Hy Guard needed for the system of a CUT I usually change the fluid and filters at a hunderd hours or less. I said something to one of the JD techs about using regular Hy Guard instead of Lo-Vis, his response was "Please don't", he did'nt elaborate, so I did'nt ask. Frank. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-08-06 92856
Frank, It sure would be interesting to track down the reasons behind the Hy-gard "please don't" comment.
They seem to be speaking out of both side of their mouths. Deere recently updated their comparables table on Hy-gard and they now say it is on par with Super UDT.
If it meets or beats the best oils on the market and the owners manuals still say it is the oil of choice when the air temp rises above 80 degrees, what is so wrong with using it?? ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-08-06 92874
My dealer says "Please do" to regular HyGard. With all the confusion in this area I'm forming the opinion that everyone is right. I'm gonna try Low-Vis at the 200 hour service anyway. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-08-06 92885
Ken, if you have the time when it rolls around, it would be very interesting to do some same day, timed, FEL leak-down tests to see what the difference would be between Low-Vis and Regular. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-08-06 92886
That's a good idea, Mark. Now if I can only remember when the time comes. ....
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