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JD 790 419 FEL- Bucket dropping

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jklmnugent
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-17          83406

I have noticed my bucket has begun to drop gradually when carried at a fixed height over time, as when field mowing. No fluid leaks, loss of lift capacity or any signs of major trouble. However, the warranty period is expiring so I want to be proactive if trouble might lie ahead. Ideas or comments ?

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plots1
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2004-04-17          83408

I think a little leak down is common on all units, I recall someone posting about this a few months ago.but if you think its a real problem taking it to dealer before warranty expires would keep you from footing the bill if there is something wrong. ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-17          83413

That drift is considered normal. Actually something like a foot an hour is considered to be within specs, although that would be more than I could stand.

I get noticeably more drift in warmer weather. So I am experimenting with HyGard (instead of Low Vis) and the increased viscosity seems to help slow the drift, but just a bit.

As an aside, both 410 loaders I have owned have had "the drift" while the 3 points (on a 4100 and a 4115) have been rock solid.

In contrast, I had a BX that had zero loader drift but the 3 point drooped while it was parked. Go figure. ....

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jklmnugent
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2004-04-17          83423

Thanks guys. Will check drift down distance over a set time period then see what the dealer has to say. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-19          83675

I have a 99 JD 790. I dont have the problem your speaking of. My bucket stays exactly were I put it as long as the engine is running. The only problem I have had is the whole loader falling off by simply traveling will a normal load in it & running over a slight bump in the terrain I am traveling on. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-19          83682

jk, if your measured leak down is excessive, you could have a scored spool or bad load check on your valve. As some leak down is normal, excessive leak down can be signs of a problem. If you aren't seeing any leaks, your leakdown is most likely inside the valve body. ....

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TomG
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2004-04-20          83697

The loader falls off? Now that sounds like a subject worth pursuing. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83716

Tom, It was a poor design by deere on the 99 790. They corrected it in 2000 but weren't willing to fix it for me. The dealer fought for me but bob mills from deere head corp said "sorry, trade it in for a 2000!" i spent a grand & had my dealer modify it! I was apauled at JD's additude! ....

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Murf
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2004-04-20          83723

A friend and a customer who both had early JD 4xxx models with the now infamous grass-eating front axle got pretty much the same answer from JD, "Sell it if you don't like it.".

Now that's customer service.

As for the drift problem, I know of at least one person (with different makes & models) who had the FEL cylinders torn down and resealed with over-sized 'O' rings, problem solved.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83751

HUH, well murf i am glad to hear i am not the only one who has witnessed JD's attitude! I am hemming & hawing over trading my JD in for either a NH or a Kubota. Right now i am kind head toward kubota. Input anyone? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83753

Murf - do you still have snow up there? Do you own the 85 golf coarses or manage them? ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-20          83755

I'd sure be interested to hear the other side of the story about the JD loader that is falling off. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83758

Ken, Be my guest...contact Jerard Adinolfi at G & H Equipment of North Haven CT. 203 - 239 - 3376. Has been working for JD for 12 years. Go ahead..I challenge you to call him to hear that it was a poor design. I DONT BS! ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-20          83760

How will calling your dealer give me JD's side of the story? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83762

Gerard was the middle man as is every dealer, However, He is an extremely knowledgeable JD person. He was at the meeting with Bob Mills & myself. Gerard can tell you Bob mills side of the story. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83763

when this problem first happened. Gerard told me the Deere was going to swamp my 99 for a 2000 at no charge. Then they changed there mind when the saw my hour meter. I am a landscaper. I use my machine every day, what did they expect. That doesnt warent them not to warrenty the problem. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-20          83765

It sounds like a bad situation. How many hours did you have on it? If you had a lot of hours I could see them doing something for you, but a free swap with a new tractor seems a little excessive. Did they offer you anything? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83766

by the way ken - I dont abuse my machine like you apparently. After viewing pic 7 in your pictures. ALL i can say to that is0" Holy S***T!" ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-20          83767

There's not a lot a guy can do when the ground gives way under him :( But no damage done, not even a scratch :) ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83772

I had like 700 hours on it at the time, this was 4 years ago this july. Now I have probably 3 times that. I was shocked when i first heard they were going to give me a new one. But they went from over generous to doing hardley anything in a 1 hour time period. The guy Bob from JD head corp was sooo unfriendly! His addittude alone was enough for me to switch to Kubota. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-20          83774

I hear ya ken, Sounds like it was inevidable. I had my rear tires foam filled 2 years ago. Best thing i ever did. That machine is unmost unflippable now! I used to have the calcuim im there but ever time I punctured my tire it was a wet mess. The foam offers more wieght then calcium also & the tires are 100% puncture proof. ....

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plots1
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2004-04-20          83775

I have the fronts foam filled on mine and going to do the rears this summer. GREAT STUFF. ....

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TomG
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2004-04-21          83792

Trying to get my mind around what was happening. Something like the lift arms pulling out of their sockets maybe. The ones on my Allied loader are open facing forward and I think there are there are positioning adjustments. Just curious if that's what happened and I can't see anything except a seriously flawed design that would allow it. Sounds like there might be safety issues here and having this discussion might alert other owners to a problem and the need for a fix.

Sounds like JD's position is that there's nothing wrong with the design but maybe usage or wear could allow the problem to happen--otherwise why would hours on the tractor be relevant? If so it sounds like there should be a maintenance/testing routine speced somewhere. It would be good to hear JD's position here so we don't end up misrepresenting things. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-21          83796

Grass, snow is all gone and most courses are in play here. The ground is still pretty soft but the warmer weather and breezes are drying it up pretty fast. Another month or so and we'll bre back on the turf and working. Right now the only thing we can do on the green carpet is cut it.

I don't own the courses, although I am a minority (mostly silent) partner in several, nor do I manage them. My firm builds, re-builds and maintains courses.

Even our farm has for economic reasons now started to turn that direction too, we have always grown some turf, but more and more that segment is growing, the return is higher, but it is a lot longer coming though too. The big advantage being if the 'crop' doesn't seel this year we just keep cutting and growing it and sell it later. Thats sort of tough to do with most Ag. crops.

If you look at my pictures you will see that I am very satisfied with both Kubota's products and dealer/factory support.

Best of luck. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-21          83809

That loader story is nothing short of amazing. If they aren't smart enough to make sure their customers are satified with the product, you would think the JD attorneys would address this from a liability issue. Love to be a fly on the wall of a courtroom while people explained how a chunk of equipment fell of their tractor causing some sort of injury.

Glad I bought orange. Nothing has come flopping off of it yet, not even me. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-21          83813

With all due respect, there just has to be more to this story. I don't doubt that there was a problem, but it may have been a manufacturing defect, or it may have been screwed up by the dealer during installation, or maybe the wrong loader mounts were included with the loader, or maybe some retaining mechanism was left off, or maybe the dealer assembled the loader out of mismatched parts they had laying around but something just doesn't seem right. How many times have you heard of loaders just "falling off"? I spent some time googling on this problem with various search strings and nothing popped up so surely it's not a common problem. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-21          83845

Tom - that is exactly what was happining, The lift arms were lifting out of there sockets. There is a plate on each arm that has to bolts pressing it against the arms. Basically the plate is a wedge. for some reason, the wedge wasnt enough to hold the arms in when there was wieght in the bucket. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-21          83846

Ken - i wasnt able to finish reading your pole because I only have the free listing on this site :( but what i can say is it was at the dealer several times before the "big" meeting with Mills. If your sinario was corret, would'nt they have corrected before the big meeting? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-21          83851

beagle - Alot of people around town here said the same thing about a safty factor some suggested i sew. Its not my style though, i'd rather just iform the public of the attitude I got. I was on a jobsite one of the times it happened & a customer happened to see it happen. He almost had a heart attack. he couldnt believe his eyes! ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-21          83852

You'd think the dealer would fix it, but it's possible it was a mfg. defect that wasn't obvious by visual inspection. Something misaligned or excess clearance or something like that. It doesn't seem to be a common problem on those. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-21          83854

ken - my dealer told me they saw 3 others come back for the same problem. That was went i got mad. Then when i saw the 00' loaders have a pin instead of a plate wedge, i new i had been served improperly. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-21          83856

That sounds pretty poor. It's odd that your dealer promised you a new tractor when a new loader (and body panels) would have fixed you up. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-21          83857

I agree it is odd. JD told my dealer over the phone they were considering giving me a new machine. Reason being, my dealer told deere that it had been there several times to be fixed & adjusted & they just couldn't seem to correct it. Then Mills told my dealer he wanted to see the tractor before he made a permanent decision. So the day of the meeting i show up with my machine & mills says, "Oh, i had no idea this machine had 670 hrs on it. I cant issue you a new machine with that many hours on this one." So i said.." i thought my warrenty was a time period not an hours factor. I also said that it had been falling off since it had 100 hrs on it. Then he made a coment later on in the meeting that his lawyers were much stonger then mine so dont even go there is what he said! ....

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TomG
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2004-04-22          83910

Discussion at the meeting sounds like it got heated. Even so, a CD rep doesn't own the corporate lawyers nor make the decision to use them. To me that seems a very unusual reaction from a CS rep no matter how the meeting went. For that matter a new tractor or nothing also seems unusual and I wonder why a new machine was mentioned in the first place.

In absence of indications of abuse or speced maintenance/inspection routines that weren't carried out, fixing the loader would seem to be a reasonable solution. Sounds to me like everybody and especially JD CS may want to start over again on this one. ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-22          83932

Lawyers? For this circumstance? He is BLUFFING.

It would cost John Deere a MINIMUM of $50,000 to defend such a case in court and no bean counter on earth is going to authorize the expenditure of such an amount over a tractor that can be fixed for $2500.

You are going to have to file suit against them.... it can be done for as little as $50.00 in some jurisdictions....and then let the facts filter up the food chain and back down. That could take a month or 6 weeks.

They will come around, especially if you are prepared to settle for a new, updated, loader and a reimbursement of your attorney/filing fees. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-22          83935

If the meeting did get heated all bets are off. Common sense never prevails when tempers are flaring. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-22          83936

the meeting started out fine. At the when Mills made his final decision is when the attitudes came in the picture. I wouldnt say we got heated. I expressed my disapiontments & he bascially said trade it in if your not happy. Then I mentioned calling my attorney & he said go ahead...your attorney wont stand a chance against deere! ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-22          83937

Rankin - this all happened 2 - 3 years ago, i'm not sure i still have a case after all this time. When you say $50 to start the case are you speaking of small claims? ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-22          83940

No, I wasn't thinking of small claims, but I am now.

I was referring to the court filing fees. In every jurisdiction I have known, it does not require a lawyer to file the suit. Anyone can file. When it comes up for trial you best have a lawyer at that point though.

Small claims: last I heard the limit for damages in Small Claims was around $5000.00, and attorneys are not permitted to argue the cases in that venue.

There will be a statute of limitations argument but I think it can be argued that the tractor has an ongoing and dangerous defect that appeared in the warranty period and that there have been efforts to resolve the problem the entire time. The court will especially take notice that other, similar warranty claims have been fixed by the company.

You might also contact the Consumer Product Safety Commission to see what pressure can be brought to bear from that angle.

....

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Murf
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2004-04-22          83942

If this machine is used commercially your states OHSA people will be all over the manufacturer if they refuse to rectify a dangerous flaw.

A similar allegation came to light here in Ontario, albeit not on a CUT, the OHSA people were told by the factory to sue if they wished. The OHSA people said we don't have to, we just declare your product unsuitable for commercial use in Canada and forbid it's use on jobs covered by OSHA jurisdiction.

The problem was solved in 24 hours.

Best of luck. ....

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beagle
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2004-04-22          83943

This whole thing is giving Deere a lot of negative press just on this site. I am sure there is someone within that company that has enough common sense to make sure their product doesn't get slammed over such an obvious problem. It could be that your best pressure for a solution would come from publicity. The right people at Deere would surely do anything to make sure there isn't a story about chunks of iron falling off their equipment without doing something about it.

You may consider a few option, have your local newspaper call Deere asking for comments about a story they are doing. This may get some attention.

Suing in small claims, if still possible, would also let somebody at Deere know they about to get a bad wrap over an embarassing issue. They have all but admitted the design was flawed, you just need the right pressure to cut through the crap.

There may be a way the members of this forum could help. If there are others in the same boat as you, you may want to find out how they resolved the problem. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-22          83952

Well Beagle, I hear ya. I used to be the biggest deere fan. I have deere shirts, hats, plaques, signs & many other things. I chose to buy deere originally because of my fondness of them. I wish I had encountered someone else from JD that would have treated this properly! ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-22          83953

Murf - Thats a great piont! I should have thought of osha. I think I will call them today. I have a friend that works there. I have an appiotnment with a kubota dealer to get a trade in figure on my lemmon, i mean deere. We'll see how it turns out. ....

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sgt1985
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2004-04-25          84281

Grassgod, hope your problems with big baaad JD work out,but before you trade it in,make sure a rep. from osha inspects it first,because you can't file a complaint if you don't have the complaint. Just for giggles check out the Kioti for refinement,price and quality with a strong customer support.Believe I own one. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-25          84284

sgt - your second person to tell me to chech out kioti. I am very nervous though. They haven't been around all that long. Have you had any warrenty isuues with your? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-25          84285

Ken - whats your opinion on Kioti?? ....

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Chief
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2004-04-25          84287

Grass, it does sound like Deere did not do right by you in this case. The L3430 is a VERY nice machine but since you already are substantially into payments or have the 790 paid for; it seem to me the cheapest way out for you would be to look into the possibility of modifying your 419 FEL with some type of pin lock or other modification. I would think your dealer in concert with a good welder & machine shop could work up a safe and effective modification solution. Can't say as I blame you for considering Kubota. But I think I would look into salvaging your current tractor. I can't see you coming out really well trading in that tractor on a new one. That is your call of course. I would have thought that someone would have explored the possibility of modifying your FEL to resolve the issure and maybe even throwing in a free 400 hour service or something along those lines. Hope you work something out to your satisfaction. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-25          84289

cheif-my dealer did modify the loader & i havent had any problems since however it costed me over 1k to get to this piont!My reason for selling it is only because i have out grown it. It is time for a bigger machine that can lift more, reach higher etc. before all this happened my motive was to trade & get a 4410 but after this, i am done with team green. ....

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sgt1985
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 21 north carolina
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2004-04-25          84291

Grassgod, Kioti was a formed by Daedong Corp.(Korea) don't quote me approx. 15 to 20 yrs.ago. Daedong was also smart enough to recruit several Kubota top level executives to start the Kioti nameplate. The US division is headquarted in Wilson N.C.As far as any warranty work a mechanic was at my front door to adjust a loose hydralic line day after a called it in. Sometimes an upstart co. works that much harder and not rest on it's laurels ie, JD. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-25          84292

I've heard nothing but good about Kioti's, but a "friend of a friend" who sells used tractors in this area wouldn't touch them when I spoke with him 15 months ago. I guess that's because the dealer network is/was so weak around here. I wouldn't hesitate to own one given good dealer support in the area, but there aren't many tractors I wouldn't own. Heck, I'd even buy yours for a song :) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-04-25          84294

Heck, Kioti is so good; they are building tractors for John Deere! ;o) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-25          84295

Grass, if you were considering the 4410 earlier, I would suggest the L3830 or L4330. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-26          84378

ken - Make me an offer :). If it's at all higher then trade, i'll take a road trip to oregon. Hahaha

CHief, i'm not sure if thats such a good thing anymore that they built JD machines! :P thanks for the tip, i will look into those machines your suggested. ....

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mr g
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2004-05-19          86360

do you mean front ent loader?
if yes, its your hydralic seals gettin hard and leaking inside the bucket lift hydralic arms.
....

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