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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-04-05          82229

A few months ago, there was some discussions about boosting the lifting capacity of the 790 (loader and 3pth) by about 20%, by adding shims to the main relief valve (from 2045 psi (default) to ~2400/2500 psi).
To those who did the modification, did you have any problems since then (i.e. defective pump, hose/couplers leaking, etc.) ?
I'm planning to do the same mod. but would like to hear your feedback first.
Thanks


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mainiak1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 22 Maine
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2004-04-06          82277


I haven't used my tractor much this winter but, no problems yet. I would do it again in a heart beat.

mainiak1 ....

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jusbauer37
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2 monroe,wa.
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2004-05-27          87034

I just got my new 790 today, was wondering where i could get more info. on shiming the hydraulic pump? ....

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mainiak1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 22 Maine
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2004-05-28          87116

Under the seat the shims are under the largest cap. Take it off slowly there is a spring under the cap. You get the shims from the dealer. They come in varying sizes I put the pack in and pressure tested at 2500psi. Part number
AM875169 I personally would not go any higher than that. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-05-28          87128

No problems at all, after about 50hours on the modification. Lifted boulders, loads of wet muck, trees, heavy implements, front end of my manure cart, all without a problem.

The tractor works they way it should have to start. Now... if you don't use a counterweight, the added lift capacity could make it easier to tip, but I'll bet your smart enough to know that. It's a light tractor so keeping the pressure down and the lift at around 700lbs. made it more "idiot proof". With the modification it now lifts the front end of the tractor without having to curl the bucket and lift capacity must be nearer 1000lbs. The downside is for those dummies that no ammount of precautions will help. If the extra lift didn't get them something else would anyway :)

I'll bet if we did research we could find applications were that same pump is used at 2500psi anyway. The factory hoses are rated at 3000psi and the relief valve still trips before anything breaks, so I don't think we're hurting anything. ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-05-28          87136

F350Lawman

Did you use one pack of shims or did you use a pressure gauge to 'fine-tune' the pressure ?

Since I do not have a gauge and the proper couplers to do the connection, is one pack of shims safe (i.e. near 2500 psi) ?

Presently, the tractor will carry a full bucket (mushroom compost, mulch, clay, gravel ...) but has a bit of difficulty to get the material into the bucket when scooping from the bottom of a pile.
....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-05-28          87137

I just added a pack based on others experience, no reading taken. Others have gotten 2500psi with the same method. I did get betetr performance but if you scoop from the extreme bottom of a huge pile I imagine you can max out any loader. I have learned that and improved my technique. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-05-29          87214

Hi Scott, if you haven't already; I would suggest putting a guage on the system just to verify the actual pressure being generated just for peace of mind and to be sure you know where you are operating at. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-05-29          87219

That would be a good idea Chief. All I know is several otheers have gotten right about 2400-2500 with one pack of shims. based on their ereadings, my % of increase in performance and the fact that the relief valve blows before my 3000psi hoses, and without killing the motor at idle, I am fairly confident I am OK.

Of course a real reading would be preferable, maybe next time I am at the store and see a guage I'll pick one up. They are pretty $cheap$ anyway.

P.S. I have used the FEL extensively and pretty hard since the modification so my human guinea pig test has probably proven it safe anyway :) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-29          87224

My guess would be that you are most likely in the ball park pressure you were after but the test pilot in me wants to know the pressure I suppose. ;o) I am a firm believer in what Ronald Reagan once said about the then Soviet Union and the missle disarmament treaty. "Trust but verify". ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-05-30          87258

I have an idea where to get a pressure gauge in the Ottawa (Canada) area.
But there's different connector type i.e. crimp, screw (1/4", 1/2").
Also, I'm not sure where to get the quick connect connectors (at JD ?... part no ?).
....

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jusbauer37
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2 monroe,wa.
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2004-05-30          87263

Thanks for the info, i really appreciate it. I had a different 790 on demo for a month or so and it seemed to have plenty of power for all my impliments but as im sure you all know, it really didnt like to pick up a bucket of pit run very well. Once again thank for the input. JUSTIN ....

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Hettric
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 133 MA
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2004-05-30          87309

Does this "trick" work with other models? I have a 755 JD ....

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mainiak1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 22 Maine
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2004-05-31          87316

I bought a pressure guage took it to John Deere dealer they fitted it with a male coupler. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-05-31          87326

glalonde, go to Princess Auto on Hawthorne just south of Walkely Road.

You want part number 8000842 and maybe an elbow to turn it around so it can be read depending on where you have to connect it into the system.

Best of luck. ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-05-31          87377

Murf,

Thanks a lot. I will have a look at this store.

You must have lived in Ottawa area for a while ? (your bio says you're now living in T.O. area).

....

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JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 276 coxsackie,ny
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2004-05-31          87394

just in time, I just bought several male hydraulic couplers for my 419 fel
part # AM102420 $11.50 EA
HAD ONE FAIL/LOCKED THE FEL UP TIGHT AND HAD TO CRACK THE END AND LET IT BLEED DOWN TO REPLACE IT. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-01          87412

GLalonde, no I never lived in that area, but I do work all over the place and have done many jobs in the Ottawa area.

When you're working away from home and your own repair shop you quickly learn where to go for parts and people who know what they are talking about.

A word of caution if you have never been to a Princess Auto store, they have lots of neat stuff and it VERY easy to come out of the store with a LOT MORE than you went in to get.

If possible take the peice you need to connect to a small sketch of how it fits, they will make up exactly what you need for you no charge, you just pay for the parts.

Best of luck. ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-09          88187

Well,

I've finally done it. I've added only one pack of shims which I find sufficient.


Here are my readings (psi):

idle: no shims added (2000), one pack added (2400)
full throttle: no shims added (2100), one pack added (2500)


....

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akanapa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 28 Black Forest, Colorado
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2004-06-10          88238

Does this method of increasing hydro pressure work for other models, particularly the 4000-series? Could someone please explain to us newbies how it works, and things to watch out for. Thanks. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-10          88241

The pressure, after one pack of shims, is nearly identical to the pressure specs on my 4115.

That does not mean that the 790 has the same strength in it's front axle or loader mounts as the later designs. There is a reason the engineers have kept the pressure lower on this model. ....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 563 mo
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2004-06-10          88242

The 790 has a really high ballast rate for it's size, that would lead me to believe the axles are pretty stought.maybe they keep pressures lower for other reasons
....

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JimP
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 NY
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2004-06-10          88266

Hope all the hydrualic hoses on the loader are 2-wire type, as except for 1-wire 1/4" hose, you would be above the working pressure of all larger diameter 1-wire hoses at the PSI measurements being thrown around. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-06-10          88282

The 790 hoses are all marked "3000 PSI", the 2400-250 PSI we areall reading with one shim pack should not be a problem. I don't think any of the other JD compact models that are operating at 2500 PSI from the factory use hoses rated for more than 3000PSI ??? ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-10          88288

Hard to tell..... they are all painted green. ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-11          88311

Based on the JD online parts, the hydraulic pump is the same for the 790, 2210, 4100, 670, 770, 4110

However, the hydraulic pressure is not rated the same for all tractors.

For example, the 4110 is rated at 2418 max while the 790 is rated at 2050 max.



....

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wilf2554
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3 Florida
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2004-07-29          92205

I'm intrested in increasing my 790 pump preasure. What do I ask for at the JD dealership? Is this something that they should understand or am I going to seam like a fool trying to explain it? Can you be more detail in installing the shim?
Thanks for all you help ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-29          92208

Wilf, the pump presuure is not increased, the pressure setting at which point the relief valve opens and the pressure stops climbing is increased.

All the shim does is put the spring holding the relief valve closed under greater preload, meaning it is harder to compress the spring, and therefore harder for the relief valve to open meaning it doesn't open until the pressure against it hits a higher pressure.

Clearer now?

Best of luck. ....

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wilf2554
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3 Florida
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2004-07-29          92212

Ok, I understand now,
I just need to know what shims others are using so I can purchase them ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-29          92215

The shims for your nmachine may not be the same as another identical machine, it depends on the pressure your machine develops now, and how much it needs to be increased.

The easiest way is to just tell them what pressure you want to achieve. It might not be a good DIY project if your not familiar with what's involved but it's not complicated. You would also need a pressure gauge and few bits and pieces that would likely cost the same as the dealer might charge to install them, if they even charge you at all, it's a pretty quick simple job if you have all the tools and and know what to do.


Best of luck. ....

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wilf2554
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3 Florida
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2004-07-29          92227

I just talked to the local JD dealer service manager, he said shimming the relieve valve wouldn't increase the lift capacity and only end up blowing the seals. So who do you believe? I'm not trying to "yank" an full grown oak out of the ground, just have some things around the farm that I want to move and currently tractor could use a little help.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-30          92269

Depending on the loader valve and adjustments, it may not take shims but a pressure gauge should be used. The loader valve may have it's own relief valve and that may be set lower than the system relief pressure. The adjustment of some loader valve relief valves is a screw adjust under a cap.

The issue of decreased safety may be more important than that of increased mechanical failure. 790's are light, and big loads decrease stability. Ballast on the 3ph balances the tractor front to back but does little for side stability. Lift a heavy load high on a side hill or hit a bump and risk a turn over.

Factory relief pressure specs may be set to maintain acceptable stability for most people who will operate a model. A dealer or anybody else shouldn't encourage people to change the pressure. However, on your own you can educate yourself to both safety and mechanical risks and accept increased risks if that's appropriate. Greater risks are generally consistent with greater operating experience. What ever you do just be aware of the issues. Safety margins are engineered into designs but accidents happen and tractors break. ....

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-30          92277

For the JD790, I've measure the PSI at the loader connection, before and after adding one pack of shims. It added 400 PSI (from 2000 to 2400 at idle, from 2100 to 2500 at full throttle). I did not want to do this blindly. Based on the JD online parts, the pump used on the 790 is the same as the one used on the 4110. The default psi on the 4110 is ~2400. Therefore in theory this modification should not damage the pump. The hoses are rated at 3000 psi. I do not know about the SVC rating, the front axle support capability and the loader structural strenths but so far I had no issues and so does other people on this site which had the mod done longer than me. This is a modest increase of 20% i.e. if I was lifting max 800 lbs, I would now be lifting ~160 lbs more (i.e. 960 lbs).
This allows the loader to break more easily into a pile of stuff.
The long term effects are not known. Perhaps there will be metal fatigue somewhere along the line ? Perhaps nothing will ever happen ?


However, this does not mean that you can do this for all tractors. I've read somewhere that someone has added ~300psi more (I believe those were the numbers) from 2500 psi to 2800psi (a 12% increase only on another model of tractor) and the pump got damaged within a very short period of time.

....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-31          92359

Pumps generally have maximum and continuous pressure ratings. A dealer or manufacturer should be able to say what they are. A republished article from the 70's I have says that most gear on gear pumps have max pressure ratings around 4,000 psi and continuous ratings around 3,000 psi. Ratings for gear in gear types are a little lower. Unless pumps have improved since then, 2,800 lbs. relief settings may start pushing some continuous ratings. Over-heated oil would likely do the damage.

One thing that happens at high pressures is that pump flow decreases even for piston type pumps and implements move slower (CUT's generally have gear pumps). That keeps the system under high pressure for longer intervals and adds to heat problems. However, oil temperature is easy enough to monitor and should be when doing heavy hydraulic work. ....

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daveknowshow
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 35 virginia
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2004-10-28          99419

i been wondering about this i'm so glaD I WAS DIRECTED HERE TOO READ ALL THIS WONDERFUL INSIGHT! keep us posted of any negatives involved thnks ....

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daveknowshow
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 35 virginia
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2004-11-09          100116

i'm very curious as too if this will effect the overal performance of a bh on a 790 i would think so since it powered by the same hydro system. any insight? does everyone agree that this is a good thing too do? is there anyone here that can guide me in the right direction in checking the pressure and doin the mod? my unit should be delivered in 30 days. i can hardly wait! ....

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carlosthetaxman
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3 DeRidder, Lousiana
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2005-07-01          113008

To mainiak1 and F350Lawman:

Just wanted to post this to tell you how pleased I am! I put the shim kit in the relief valve under the seat of my JD 790 and now lift a 1100 lb disk with no problem whatsoever! (previously I had to bore a different set of holes in my three point arms and move them back when I used the disk to give the tractor more leverage).

I simply picked up the shims with the part # you listed, called a trusted JD mechanic who verified that it's the tallest cap (if you're standing behind the tractor it's to the right) and put them in right under the cap. I didn't have the gauges to pressure test, but he told me if you bottomed it out and it didn't lug the motor much it would probably be allright, although he wasn't certain what a dealer would say.

It works much better, and thanks again for the tip!

Carlos ....

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JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 276 coxsackie,ny
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2005-07-03          113041

my 7 series bh on my 790 has its own relief valve this to has to be tweaked,I dont think I will do it,Ive found out that a little more time is better than replacing parts. ....

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643648
Join Date: Aug 2005
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2005-08-03          114276

I HAVE A 790, WON'T LIFT MUCH, WOULD ANYONE KNOW THE PART # FOR THE SHIM KIT? ....

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carlosthetaxman
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3 DeRidder, Lousiana
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2005-08-03          114305

Part # is AM875169.

Good luck. ....

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643648
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2005-08-04          114350

TALKING ABOUT THE 790 HYDRAULIC PRESSURE. THE KIT # AM875169 COSISTS OF ONE SHIM, DO YOU HAVE THE PART NUMBER FOR THE SET? THANKS. ....

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carlosthetaxman
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3 DeRidder, Lousiana
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2005-08-05          114417

I used that part number (got it from this same thread, earlier on) and the it was a set of shims. The set consists of maybe 5 shims, each progressively thinner than the last, but none very thick. I used all of them.

Hope this helps.

Carlos ....

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